Harman Kardon 930 lost channel. Hoe to trouble shoot ?

>"The grease has dried out..."

I guess now would be a good time to dispel this old husband's tale.

When the union between heatsink and transistor is undisturbed, dried out grease that is like cement is perfectly fine. I have conducted a few studies on it albeit subjective. That is that the temperature difference between a transistor and the heatsink to which it is mounted is not significant, AS LONG AS IT IS NOT DISTURBED.

That assumes it was installed properly in the first place.

First of all you never spread the compound, you put a dab or a bead where it will be squished out as it is tightened. this eliminates air pockets. If you have a big air pocket between there you would be better off with no compound at all.

Granted, the old dried out compound does not have as good thermal conductivity as nice new wet goop, but it is seated over the years and works quite well. If you doubt what I say take a meat thermometer and check the case of a TO-3 and its heatsink on one that has been there for decades and ne that you remount with new goop now. In fact to make sure there is no error, clean those surfaces with "things". Scrub pads, alcohol, maybe acetone, and finish with a coffee fitter to get the surface nice and smooth. Apply a dab or bead right where the ounting will exert the mos even force, on a TO-3 for example, that will be about in the center and it is normal for some of the goop to squeeze through the holes for the pins. then get that thermometer out after using the unit to get the heat up, like on a stereo amp, run both channels at like 1/3rd power for an hour, that'll warm er up. As soon as you detect heat, measure. It has JUST been produced so it is still conducting to the heatsink. That would be the most accurate comparative test, but not for absolutes. It is not a number except for "how much" one is better than the other. Your actual calories of heat/watts dissipation and all that shit matters not. Iti s simply better or worse. Try it.
 
An infra-red heat gun is better at very close range. It will show variations of fractions of a degree.

Also very good for pinpointing hot-spots. Within a couple of inches, the spread is 1/6" for a standard 12:1 unit. There are narrower devices, but they are comparatively pricey.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
 
On 10/12/18 9:01 AM, pfjw@aol.com wrote:
> An infra-red heat gun is better at very close range. It will show variations of fractions of a degree.

Providing that the thermal infrared emissivity of the surface is high,
e.g. plastic or glass. A dab of grease or some tape will make it work a
lot better.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 8:36:35 AM UTC-4, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
"The grease has dried out..."

I guess now would be a good time to dispel this old husband's tale.

When the union between heatsink and transistor is undisturbed, dried out grease that is like cement is perfectly fine.

You beat me to it. It's not the liquid component of heat sink compound that transfer heat, it's the solids that are suspended in the goop. The compound may get hard, but the solids are still packed between gaps doing their job.
 
On 10/12/2018 10:19 AM, John-Del wrote:
On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 8:36:35 AM UTC-4, jurb...@gmail.com
wrote:
"The grease has dried out..."

I guess now would be a good time to dispel this old husband's tale.


When the union between heatsink and transistor is undisturbed,
dried out grease that is like cement is perfectly fine.

You beat me to it. It's not the liquid component of heat sink
compound that transfer heat, it's the solids that are suspended in
the goop. The compound may get hard, but the solids are still packed
between gaps doing their job.

Provided they're really undisturbed. Thermal cycling can cause
delamination problems that don't occur with the oil present.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
https://hobbs-eo.com
 
On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 9:24:31 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Providing that the thermal infrared emissivity of the surface is high,
e.g. plastic or glass. A dab of grease or some tape will make it work a
lot better.

I have not experienced that issue, for the record. What I find is that accuracy starts to suffer as the battery gets weak. I view them the same as smoke-alarm batteries - 2x per year, whether I need it or not. And the used batteries are put aside for my increasing number of novelty radios that the grandkids are fighting over. Not in them, but with them for demonstration purposes.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
 
On 10/12/18 3:19 PM, pfjw@aol.com wrote:
On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 9:24:31 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Providing that the thermal infrared emissivity of the surface is high,
e.g. plastic or glass. A dab of grease or some tape will make it work a
lot better.

I have not experienced that issue, for the record.

What testing have you done?

What I find is that accuracy starts to suffer as the battery gets weak.
I view them the same as smoke-alarm batteries - 2x per year, whether I
need it or not. And the used batteries are put aside for my increasing
number of novelty radios that the grandkids are fighting over. Not in
them, but with them for demonstration purposes.

You can't do good IR temperature measurements on shiny metal surfaces.
Nasty grey pitted aluminum is about halfway between shiny metal and a
true black body.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
On 10/12/2018 03:19 PM, pfjw@aol.com wrote:
On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 9:24:31 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Providing that the thermal infrared emissivity of the surface is high,
e.g. plastic or glass. A dab of grease or some tape will make it work a
lot better.

I have not experienced that issue, for the record. What I find is that accuracy starts to suffer as the battery gets weak. I view them the same as smoke-alarm batteries - 2x per year, whether I need it or not. And the used batteries are put aside for my increasing number of novelty radios that the grandkids are fighting over. Not in them, but with them for demonstration purposes.

Your accuracy requirements aren't high, then. A shiny metal surface can
easily show up as 90% room reflection and 10% surface emission. A bit
of tape will reverse those numbers.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
https://hobbs-eo.com
 
On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 1:03:31 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Your accuracy requirements aren't high, then. A shiny metal surface can
easily show up as 90% room reflection and 10% surface emission. A bit
of tape will reverse those numbers.

Perhaps not. 90% of the use is to verify that I am not looking at a freeze-out on an AHU coil or at the discharge temperature of a chiller. And in such cases, it is pretty much go/no-go. I am not the mechanic, but I have learned over the years that "trust but verify" does not only apply to the former Soviets.

But, for 10% of the use, it is to let office workers, docs or other staff know the temperature in their space. The docs have, on more than a few occasions, pulled out a thermometer of their own - and so far, they and my little heat gun have agreed.

On rare occasion, I will use it at home to verify radiator temperature against the gauge on the boiler, or to look for hot-spots in some bit of audio or radio equipment, or other. And, if one tube on an output pair is acting differently from another, I understand I have an issue.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
 
"Provided they're really undisturbed. Thermal cycling can cause
delamination problems that don't occur with the oil present. "

What I consider the better TO-3s are aluminum, not steel. Another advantage is that they won't bend as much if the mounting surface is not perfectly flat.

T
 
jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
What I consider the better TO-3s are aluminum, not steel.

** Though once common, Aluminium TO3 paks are no longer used by most manufacturers due to problems with thermal expansion of the aluminium base causing microscopic cracking of silicon chips.

Thermal expansion of aluminium is about 7 times greater than that of silicon, limiting the number of full thermal cycles such devices were good for.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-expansion-metals-d_859.html

Steel and copper alloy packs are used instead, with most having a "coin" made of a metal with intermediate rate of expansion soldered between the chip and the pak.



Another advantage is that they won't bend as much if the mounting
surface is not perfectly flat.

** Yuck. Better use only flat heatsinks.




..... Phil
 
On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 12:28:00 PM UTC-4, mako...@yahoo.com wrote:
here is a tip,

wire an outlet box with a duplex outlet and a switch.

wire the outlet so the two outlets are in SERIES and in series with the switch..

Plug your unit into one outlet and plug a 100 Watt INCANDESCENT light into the other outlet.

I wonder what it takes for a guy to find a house where all the 120v outlets are wired like that.
 
On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 9:01:53 PM UTC-5, bruce2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 12:28:00 PM UTC-4, mako...@yahoo.com wrote:
here is a tip,

wire an outlet box with a duplex outlet and a switch.

wire the outlet so the two outlets are in SERIES and in series with the switch..

Plug your unit into one outlet and plug a 100 Watt INCANDESCENT light into the other outlet.

I wonder what it takes for a guy to find a house where all the 120v outlets are wired like that.

Make sure there is a plug on it, do not wire it to the house wiring. Very against code.
 

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor

Back
Top