half baked idea, frozen can cooler

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 08:27:49 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

mandag den 17. juni 2019 kl. 17.12.41 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 06:22:13 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 5:53:55 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 15/06/2019 18:15, George Herold wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 10:36:33 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

So melting my beer can of ice is about
1 kJ a watt for 1k seconds.

Oh great, 1k seconds? Why not just stand
there and breathe on it?

Well when cooling with the hot plate air cooled,
the hot side of the TEC is ~35- 40 C... and that
limits the minimum temperature of the cool side.

To get to lower temperatures I was thinking ice cooling.

What are you trying to do?
Well, we've been crazy busy here, building and testing. But I look to
be caught up soon, and I'm thinking again of my spad thing. (cooled
single photon detector.)

A single TEC stage needs a little more umph (cooling power). Double stages
get a bit more, but are trickier, (and I've never used one.) and
also want to live in vacuum... which is a complication.
I might gain another ~20C in cooling with ice on the cold plate.

I am worried about the whole condensation issue though.

George H.

Are you going to force those poor physics students to empty beer cans?

How about some gas expansion thing instead of the TEC?

Propane makes a great expansion cooler, between explosions.


here most if not all refrigerators use propane aka R290 as refrigerant

I was thinking of some sort of once-use tank, like a propane cylinder,
that wouldn't need a compressor and stuff. Gas from tank goes into
expander/cooler and then gets dumped, not circulated.

Compressed air is often available, but tends to be wet and would gunk
up an expander.

Water would be a great cooler for the peltier, but it's messy.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics
 
On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 06:22:13 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 5:53:55 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 15/06/2019 18:15, George Herold wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 10:36:33 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

So melting my beer can of ice is about
1 kJ a watt for 1k seconds.

Oh great, 1k seconds? Why not just stand
there and breathe on it?

Well when cooling with the hot plate air cooled,
the hot side of the TEC is ~35- 40 C... and that
limits the minimum temperature of the cool side.

To get to lower temperatures I was thinking ice cooling.

What are you trying to do?
Well, we've been crazy busy here, building and testing. But I look to
be caught up soon, and I'm thinking again of my spad thing. (cooled
single photon detector.)

A single TEC stage needs a little more umph (cooling power). Double stages
get a bit more, but are trickier, (and I've never used one.) and
also want to live in vacuum... which is a complication.
I might gain another ~20C in cooling with ice on the cold plate.

I am worried about the whole condensation issue though.

George H.

Are you going to force those poor physics students to empty beer cans?

How about some gas expansion thing instead of the TEC?

Propane makes a great expansion cooler, between explosions.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics
 
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 11:31:48 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 17/06/2019 14:22, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 5:53:55 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 15/06/2019 18:15, George Herold wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 10:36:33 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

So melting my beer can of ice is about
1 kJ a watt for 1k seconds.

Oh great, 1k seconds? Why not just stand
there and breathe on it?

Well when cooling with the hot plate air cooled,
the hot side of the TEC is ~35- 40 C... and that
limits the minimum temperature of the cool side.

To get to lower temperatures I was thinking ice cooling.

What are you trying to do?

Well, we've been crazy busy here, building and testing. But I look to
be caught up soon, and I'm thinking again of my spad thing. (cooled
single photon detector.)

A single TEC stage needs a little more umph (cooling power). Double stages
get a bit more, but are trickier, (and I've never used one.) and
also want to live in vacuum... which is a complication.
I might gain another ~20C in cooling with ice on the cold plate.

I am worried about the whole condensation issue though.

You might want to take a look at one of the commercial cooled CCD
cameras for amateur use then to steal some ideas that work well.
Sure, know any good links/ search words?
I found this from Mike's electric stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WnGhbub6LM

GH
If you
cascade them and remember that the outer one has to pump everything the
small one dissipates plus the heat it moves from the CCD then it isn't
too hairy. Might be worth trying CO2 dry ice - that sublimes away.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
 
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:qe8bou$sk5$1@gioia.aioe.org:

On 17/06/2019 14:22, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 5:53:55 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 15/06/2019 18:15, George Herold wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 10:36:33 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill
wrote:
George Herold wrote...

So melting my beer can of ice is about
1 kJ a watt for 1k seconds.

Oh great, 1k seconds? Why not just stand
there and breathe on it?

Well when cooling with the hot plate air cooled,
the hot side of the TEC is ~35- 40 C... and that
limits the minimum temperature of the cool side.

To get to lower temperatures I was thinking ice cooling.

What are you trying to do?

Well, we've been crazy busy here, building and testing. But I
look to be caught up soon, and I'm thinking again of my spad
thing. (cooled single photon detector.)

A single TEC stage needs a little more umph (cooling power).
Double stages get a bit more, but are trickier, (and I've never
used one.) and also want to live in vacuum... which is a
complication. I might gain another ~20C in cooling with ice on
the cold plate.

I am worried about the whole condensation issue though.

You might want to take a look at one of the commercial cooled CCD
cameras for amateur use then to steal some ideas that work well.
If you cascade them and remember that the outer one has to pump
everything the small one dissipates plus the heat it moves from
the CCD then it isn't too hairy. Might be worth trying CO2 dry ice
- that sublimes away.

Fluorinert bath with a thin film across the face of the CCD stops
condensation and the fluorinert can go that low.

So it has to look through a liquid, then glass "window", but no
condensation. Or would that attenuate the light to much?
 
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 11:12:41 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 06:22:13 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 5:53:55 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 15/06/2019 18:15, George Herold wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 10:36:33 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

So melting my beer can of ice is about
1 kJ a watt for 1k seconds.

Oh great, 1k seconds? Why not just stand
there and breathe on it?

Well when cooling with the hot plate air cooled,
the hot side of the TEC is ~35- 40 C... and that
limits the minimum temperature of the cool side.

To get to lower temperatures I was thinking ice cooling.

What are you trying to do?
Well, we've been crazy busy here, building and testing. But I look to
be caught up soon, and I'm thinking again of my spad thing. (cooled
single photon detector.)

A single TEC stage needs a little more umph (cooling power). Double stages
get a bit more, but are trickier, (and I've never used one.) and
also want to live in vacuum... which is a complication.
I might gain another ~20C in cooling with ice on the cold plate.

I am worried about the whole condensation issue though.

George H.

Are you going to force those poor physics students to empty beer cans?
Grin, well a coke can will work too.

How about some gas expansion thing instead of the TEC?

Propane makes a great expansion cooler, between explosions.
Hmm a TEC seems perfect here. I want decent thermal control...
And from reading some literature (on spad's) the important thermal
range is ~ -20 C to +10 C. I guess a multi stage TEC would be ideal,
except then I've got to put in in vacuum... cause I haven't seen any
multi stages with an epoxy/ RTV coating on the edges to keep moisture out.

(The smaller single stage also have no coating, mostly 'cause the coating
is a thermal short that has to be over come.)

George H.
--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics
 
Going the other way seems to be easier, and actually burns very little wood:

https://www.bioliteenergy.com/products/campstove-2

Steve
 
mandag den 17. juni 2019 kl. 18.42.49 UTC+2 skrev George Herold:
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 11:12:41 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 06:22:13 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 5:53:55 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 15/06/2019 18:15, George Herold wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 10:36:33 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

So melting my beer can of ice is about
1 kJ a watt for 1k seconds.

Oh great, 1k seconds? Why not just stand
there and breathe on it?

Well when cooling with the hot plate air cooled,
the hot side of the TEC is ~35- 40 C... and that
limits the minimum temperature of the cool side.

To get to lower temperatures I was thinking ice cooling.

What are you trying to do?
Well, we've been crazy busy here, building and testing. But I look to
be caught up soon, and I'm thinking again of my spad thing. (cooled
single photon detector.)

A single TEC stage needs a little more umph (cooling power). Double stages
get a bit more, but are trickier, (and I've never used one.) and
also want to live in vacuum... which is a complication.
I might gain another ~20C in cooling with ice on the cold plate.

I am worried about the whole condensation issue though.

George H.

Are you going to force those poor physics students to empty beer cans?
Grin, well a coke can will work too.

How about some gas expansion thing instead of the TEC?

Propane makes a great expansion cooler, between explosions.
Hmm a TEC seems perfect here. I want decent thermal control...
And from reading some literature (on spad's) the important thermal
range is ~ -20 C to +10 C. I guess a multi stage TEC would be ideal,
except then I've got to put in in vacuum... cause I haven't seen any
multi stages with an epoxy/ RTV coating on the edges to keep moisture out.

purge the enclosure with something dry like nitrogen
 
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 6:22:17 AM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:

A single TEC stage needs a little more umph (cooling power). Double stages
get a bit more, but are trickier, (and I've never used one.) and
also want to live in vacuum... which is a complication.
I might gain another ~20C in cooling with ice on the cold plate.

I am worried about the whole condensation issue though.

One solution with the condensation solved, would be to use CO2 cartridges
(like for seltzer bottles); the expansion creates cooling, AND displaces any
moist air. The cost of the cooler is l ow, but you do need the consumables
as well.

Higher cost consumables include various freeze-mist products. No budding
scientist or electronics troubleshooter ought to be unfamiliar with those.
 
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 4:49:37 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 6:22:17 AM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:

A single TEC stage needs a little more umph (cooling power). Double stages
get a bit more, but are trickier, (and I've never used one.) and
also want to live in vacuum... which is a complication.
I might gain another ~20C in cooling with ice on the cold plate.

I am worried about the whole condensation issue though.

One solution with the condensation solved, would be to use CO2 cartridges
(like for seltzer bottles); the expansion creates cooling, AND displaces any
moist air. The cost of the cooler is l ow, but you do need the consumables
as well.

Higher cost consumables include various freeze-mist products. No budding
scientist or electronics troubleshooter ought to be unfamiliar with those.

If I have a sealed container, (o-ring) but no pumping/purging valves.
And some cold plate that is kept below 0 C, (maybe stick some more
surface area to the cold plate...fine wire-mesh?) Then all the H2O
should want to stick to the cold part.

Hey, If I put salt in the water, I can depress the freezing point.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freezing-point_depression

It's also a science project, with salt. :^)

What's a typical freezer temp?

With no power I stick in my can of salty frozen water. Heat flows
through the TEC and cools down my copper/brass(?) getter.

I guess it would be OK to have the TEC cooling.

I'm betting there are a million (given styles and logo's and ...)
foam beer cozies out there.

Apparently that's spelled with a k?
https://www.amazon.com/slp/foam-can-koozie/cyay6au8nsaf8vg

I need an extra tall one that I can stick a cap on.

This seems like a cool idea... Don't ya think so?

George H.
(fight water vapor with salty ice. :^)
and o-rings
 
On 18/6/19 9:57 am, George Herold wrote:
I'm betting there are a million (given styles and logo's and ...)
foam beer cozies out there.

Apparently that's spelled with a k?
https://www.amazon.com/slp/foam-can-koozie/cyay6au8nsaf8vg
I need an extra tall one that I can stick a cap on.

Oy, mate, 'ere in the land of 'Ox we call them wetties. Short for
wetsuit, which are made of the same material. Make your own?

Clifford Heath.
 
On 18/6/19 11:23 am, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 18/6/19 9:57 am, George Herold wrote:
I'm betting there are a million (given styles and logo's and ...)
foam beer cozies out there.

Apparently that's spelled with a k?
https://www.amazon.com/slp/foam-can-koozie/cyay6au8nsaf8vg
I need an extra tall one that I can stick a cap on.

Oy, mate, 'ere in the land of 'Ox we call them wetties. Short for
wetsuit, which are made of the same material. Make your own?

Gah, 'Oz. Not Ox. :)
 
Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote in news:u2XNE.79079$R23.22866
@fx01.iad:

On 18/6/19 9:57 am, George Herold wrote:
I'm betting there are a million (given styles and logo's and ...)
foam beer cozies out there.

Apparently that's spelled with a k?
https://www.amazon.com/slp/foam-can-koozie/cyay6au8nsaf8vg
I need an extra tall one that I can stick a cap on.

Oy, mate, 'ere in the land of 'Ox we call them wetties. Short for
wetsuit, which are made of the same material. Make your own?

Clifford Heath.

Hell, you can very likely buy them buy the case online emblazoned
with your graphic.
 

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