half baked idea, frozen can cooler

G

George Herold

Guest
So I'm imagining filling my empty beer can with water,
freezing it. And then clapping it to hot plate of
a TEC cooler. ~1 watt max power, but average power
lower than that. My can holds 12 oz, ~340 grams,
I get about 333 J/g,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_fusion

So melting my beer can of ice is about 1 kJ
a watt for 1k seconds. I could have more
than one frozen can, and replace them.

George H.
 
George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote in news:73416d2f-9d34-
4729-8214-ff2a5e2496dd@googlegroups.com:

So I'm imagining filling my empty beer can with water,
freezing it. And then clapping it to hot plate of
a TEC cooler. ~1 watt max power, but average power
lower than that. My can holds 12 oz, ~340 grams,
I get about 333 J/g,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_fusion

So melting my beer can of ice is about 1 kJ
a watt for 1k seconds. I could have more
than one frozen can, and replace them.

George H.
Click to expand...

For folks above the arctic circle?

Frozen water beer can > USB charger?

I go the other way. Hot exhaust > peltier > USB charge circuit.
Probably work better in a cold clime.
 
George Herold wrote...
So melting my beer can of ice is about
1 kJ a watt for 1k seconds.
Click to expand...

Oh great, 1k seconds? Why not just stand
there and breathe on it?


--
Thanks,
- Win
 
On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 17:55:49 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

So I'm imagining filling my empty beer can with water,
freezing it. And then clapping it to hot plate of
a TEC cooler. ~1 watt max power, but average power
lower than that. My can holds 12 oz, ~340 grams,
I get about 333 J/g,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_fusion

So melting my beer can of ice is about 1 kJ
a watt for 1k seconds. I could have more
than one frozen can, and replace them.

George H.
Click to expand...

340 * 333 = 113K


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics
 
Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote in news:qe1lj401rt6
@drn.newsguy.com:

George Herold wrote...

So melting my beer can of ice is about
1 kJ a watt for 1k seconds.

Oh great, 1k seconds? Why not just stand
there and breathe on it?
Click to expand...

Use a phaser on it. That'll heat it up almost immediately.

Have to set it somewhere between stun and kill.
 
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 8:55:54 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
So I'm imagining filling my empty beer can with water,
freezing it. And then clapping it to hot plate of
a TEC cooler. ~1 watt max power, but average power
lower than that. My can holds 12 oz, ~340 grams,
I get about 333 J/g,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_fusion

So melting my beer can of ice is about 1 kJ
a watt for 1k seconds. I could have more
than one frozen can, and replace them.

George H.
Click to expand...

The big problem I see is clamping a beer can to anything. I would make a water cooled heat sink and use ice water if you need a lot of heat removed.

Dan
 
On 15.6.19 03:55, George Herold wrote:
So I'm imagining filling my empty beer can with water,
freezing it. And then clapping it to hot plate of
a TEC cooler. ~1 watt max power, but average power
lower than that. My can holds 12 oz, ~340 grams,
I get about 333 J/g,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_fusion

So melting my beer can of ice is about 1 kJ
a watt for 1k seconds. I could have more
than one frozen can, and replace them.

George H.
Click to expand...

You may break your can when it gets frozen.
Here in the far North (60 degrees N) I have
seen too many frozen water pipes ...

--

-TV
 
On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 11:31:30 AM UTC-4, Tauno Voipio wrote:
On 15.6.19 03:55, George Herold wrote:
So I'm imagining filling my empty beer can with water,
freezing it. And then clapping it to hot plate of
a TEC cooler. ~1 watt max power, but average power
lower than that. My can holds 12 oz, ~340 grams,
I get about 333 J/g,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_fusion

So melting my beer can of ice is about 1 kJ
a watt for 1k seconds. I could have more
than one frozen can, and replace them.

George H.


You may break your can when it gets frozen.
Here in the far North (60 degrees N) I have
seen too many frozen water pipes ...

--

-TV
Click to expand...

Oh well that's the great part. First I drink the beer, :^)
and then fill with water and freeze.. I don't think that would
cause the can to expand.. I better go do an experiment.

GH
(60 deg N? Finland?)
 
On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 8:25:55 AM UTC-4, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 8:55:54 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
So I'm imagining filling my empty beer can with water,
freezing it. And then clapping it to hot plate of
a TEC cooler. ~1 watt max power, but average power
lower than that. My can holds 12 oz, ~340 grams,
I get about 333 J/g,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_fusion

So melting my beer can of ice is about 1 kJ
a watt for 1k seconds. I could have more
than one frozen can, and replace them.

George H.

The big problem I see is clamping a beer can to anything. I would make a water cooled heat sink and use ice water if you need a lot of heat removed.

Dan
Click to expand...

Huh, I was thinking that cans are pretty uniform in size.
I was picturing some half moon clamps from the side.. but there
are other options. (I could take the heat out through the bottom
of the can...?)

I was more worried about the condensation.

George H.
 
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 10:49:38 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 17:55:49 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

So I'm imagining filling my empty beer can with water,
freezing it. And then clapping it to hot plate of
a TEC cooler. ~1 watt max power, but average power
lower than that. My can holds 12 oz, ~340 grams,
I get about 333 J/g,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_fusion

So melting my beer can of ice is about 1 kJ
a watt for 1k seconds. I could have more
than one frozen can, and replace them.

George H.

340 * 333 = 113K
Click to expand...
Oh dear... OK well that's much better.
I can dump a Watt for 100k sec.. ~30 hours
(with perfect insulation around the can)

GH
--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics
Click to expand...
 
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 10:36:33 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

So melting my beer can of ice is about
1 kJ a watt for 1k seconds.

Oh great, 1k seconds? Why not just stand
there and breathe on it?
Click to expand...

Well when cooling with the hot plate air cooled,
the hot side of the TEC is ~35- 40 C... and that
limits the minimum temperature of the cool side.

To get to lower temperatures I was thinking ice cooling.

George H.

--
Thanks,
- Win
Click to expand...
 
On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 10:18:43 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 10:49:38 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 17:55:49 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

So I'm imagining filling my empty beer can with water,
freezing it. And then clapping it to hot plate of
a TEC cooler. ~1 watt max power, but average power
lower than that. My can holds 12 oz, ~340 grams,
I get about 333 J/g,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_fusion

So melting my beer can of ice is about 1 kJ
a watt for 1k seconds. I could have more
than one frozen can, and replace them.

George H.

340 * 333 = 113K
Oh dear... OK well that's much better.
I can dump a Watt for 100k sec.. ~30 hours
(with perfect insulation around the can)

GH
Click to expand...

There's a more serious issue: why would anyone buy beer in cans?


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics
 
On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 11:18:38 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

> There's a more serious issue: why would anyone buy beer in cans?

Same reason I get Shiraz in a box. The 'cork-and-glass' packaging of
traditional wine merchandising is (nowadays) an affectation. Neither
plastic corks nor twist-off caps make any significant effect on the taste,
that I can perceive.

Steel cans weren't innocuous, but aluminum can/aluminum lid seems to be
a technology that is very close to inert, and there's no plastic disk in the
cap like in a bottled beer.

Like the boxed Shiraz, the cans fit in the fridge better.
 
On Saturday, 15 June 2019 13:25:55 UTC+1, dca...@krl.org wrote:

> The big problem I see is clamping a beer can to anything.

they make free low performance heatsinks. Just cut your metal with scissors & tie it on. I do that for parts that get too hot in existing equipment. The upside is you can cut them to any shape to fit anywhere.


NT
 
On 15.6.19 20:35, George Herold wrote:
On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 11:31:30 AM UTC-4, Tauno Voipio wrote:
On 15.6.19 03:55, George Herold wrote:
So I'm imagining filling my empty beer can with water,
freezing it. And then clapping it to hot plate of
a TEC cooler. ~1 watt max power, but average power
lower than that. My can holds 12 oz, ~340 grams,
I get about 333 J/g,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_fusion

So melting my beer can of ice is about 1 kJ
a watt for 1k seconds. I could have more
than one frozen can, and replace them.

George H.


You may break your can when it gets frozen.
Here in the far North (60 degrees N) I have
seen too many frozen water pipes ...

--

-TV

Oh well that's the great part. First I drink the beer, :^)
and then fill with water and freeze.. I don't think that would
cause the can to expand.. I better go do an experiment.

GH
(60 deg N? Finland?)
Click to expand...

Yep - southern tip. The far north here is 70 deg N.

--

-TV
 
On 15/06/2019 18:15, George Herold wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 10:36:33 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

So melting my beer can of ice is about
1 kJ a watt for 1k seconds.

Oh great, 1k seconds? Why not just stand
there and breathe on it?

Well when cooling with the hot plate air cooled,
the hot side of the TEC is ~35- 40 C... and that
limits the minimum temperature of the cool side.

To get to lower temperatures I was thinking ice cooling.
Click to expand...

What are you trying to do?

The only time I contemplated ice (and dry ice) was for a crazy science
demo with TEC run to generate voltage from a candle flame to light a
high power white LED. In the end I gave up even though it worked the
thing ended up so hot that solder melted on the first stage and the
third stage cold side was capable of inflicting severe cold burns.

The usual approach is forced air cooling of the final stage heatsink and
fans intended for PCs are remarkably cheap. The trick is to cool the
smallest possible volume to the target temperature and then use a two
stage system to pump the heat away with a finned heatsink and a fan.

Insulation around the place you are trying to cool is the key. Amateur
astronomy cooled CCD devices are the canonical thing to beat.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
 
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 3:22:17 PM UTC+2, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 5:53:55 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 15/06/2019 18:15, George Herold wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 10:36:33 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

So melting my beer can of ice is about
1 kJ a watt for 1k seconds.

Oh great, 1k seconds? Why not just stand
there and breathe on it?

Well when cooling with the hot plate air cooled,
the hot side of the TEC is ~35- 40 C... and that
limits the minimum temperature of the cool side.

To get to lower temperatures I was thinking ice cooling.

What are you trying to do?
Well, we've been crazy busy here, building and testing. But I look to
be caught up soon, and I'm thinking again of my spad thing. (cooled
single photon detector.)

A single TEC stage needs a little more umph (cooling power). Double stages
get a bit more, but are trickier, (and I've never used one.) and
also want to live in vacuum... which is a complication.
I might gain another ~20C in cooling with ice on the cold plate.

I am worried about the whole condensation issue though.
Click to expand...

Liquid nitrogen is handy - if you've got it.

Boil off as much of it as you need with a little resistive heater, and the stream of cold gas is absolutely dry. Nasty time delay in the control loop though - the cold gas takes time to get from the dewar to the detector you are, cooling, and the less cooling you need, the slower the transfer.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 5:53:55 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 15/06/2019 18:15, George Herold wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 10:36:33 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

So melting my beer can of ice is about
1 kJ a watt for 1k seconds.

Oh great, 1k seconds? Why not just stand
there and breathe on it?

Well when cooling with the hot plate air cooled,
the hot side of the TEC is ~35- 40 C... and that
limits the minimum temperature of the cool side.

To get to lower temperatures I was thinking ice cooling.

What are you trying to do?
Click to expand...
Well, we've been crazy busy here, building and testing. But I look to
be caught up soon, and I'm thinking again of my spad thing. (cooled
single photon detector.)

A single TEC stage needs a little more umph (cooling power). Double stages
get a bit more, but are trickier, (and I've never used one.) and
also want to live in vacuum... which is a complication.
I might gain another ~20C in cooling with ice on the cold plate.

I am worried about the whole condensation issue though.

George H.
The only time I contemplated ice (and dry ice) was for a crazy science
demo with TEC run to generate voltage from a candle flame to light a
high power white LED. In the end I gave up even though it worked the
thing ended up so hot that solder melted on the first stage and the
third stage cold side was capable of inflicting severe cold burns.

The usual approach is forced air cooling of the final stage heatsink and
fans intended for PCs are remarkably cheap. The trick is to cool the
smallest possible volume to the target temperature and then use a two
stage system to pump the heat away with a finned heatsink and a fan.

Insulation around the place you are trying to cool is the key. Amateur
astronomy cooled CCD devices are the canonical thing to beat.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Click to expand...
 
mandag den 17. juni 2019 kl. 17.12.41 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 06:22:13 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 5:53:55 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 15/06/2019 18:15, George Herold wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 10:36:33 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

So melting my beer can of ice is about
1 kJ a watt for 1k seconds.

Oh great, 1k seconds? Why not just stand
there and breathe on it?

Well when cooling with the hot plate air cooled,
the hot side of the TEC is ~35- 40 C... and that
limits the minimum temperature of the cool side.

To get to lower temperatures I was thinking ice cooling.

What are you trying to do?
Well, we've been crazy busy here, building and testing. But I look to
be caught up soon, and I'm thinking again of my spad thing. (cooled
single photon detector.)

A single TEC stage needs a little more umph (cooling power). Double stages
get a bit more, but are trickier, (and I've never used one.) and
also want to live in vacuum... which is a complication.
I might gain another ~20C in cooling with ice on the cold plate.

I am worried about the whole condensation issue though.

George H.

Are you going to force those poor physics students to empty beer cans?

How about some gas expansion thing instead of the TEC?

Propane makes a great expansion cooler, between explosions.
Click to expand...

here most if not all refrigerators use propane aka R290 as refrigerant
 
On 17/06/2019 14:22, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 5:53:55 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 15/06/2019 18:15, George Herold wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 10:36:33 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

So melting my beer can of ice is about
1 kJ a watt for 1k seconds.

Oh great, 1k seconds? Why not just stand
there and breathe on it?

Well when cooling with the hot plate air cooled,
the hot side of the TEC is ~35- 40 C... and that
limits the minimum temperature of the cool side.

To get to lower temperatures I was thinking ice cooling.

What are you trying to do?

Well, we've been crazy busy here, building and testing. But I look to
be caught up soon, and I'm thinking again of my spad thing. (cooled
single photon detector.)

A single TEC stage needs a little more umph (cooling power). Double stages
get a bit more, but are trickier, (and I've never used one.) and
also want to live in vacuum... which is a complication.
I might gain another ~20C in cooling with ice on the cold plate.

I am worried about the whole condensation issue though.
Click to expand...

You might want to take a look at one of the commercial cooled CCD
cameras for amateur use then to steal some ideas that work well. If you
cascade them and remember that the outer one has to pump everything the
small one dissipates plus the heat it moves from the CCD then it isn't
too hairy. Might be worth trying CO2 dry ice - that sublimes away.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
 
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