GUESS WHICH COUNTRY THIS IS...

[Rod Speed]

John Tserkezis wrote:

Asazel wrote

I thought I'd throw my 2c in.

Most of what you're saying is pretty much on the ball, however,
you're not playing the sanity card anymore. In mental hospitals
(or at least some of them), the rules have little to do with helping
people, and more with liability. That is, are you in a position that
the hospital would least likely be liable for anything stupid you did
once they let you out.

They arent liable even in the US.

So how do you get out of the looney-bin? What do you need to say
to get out? If you say "This is all a big mistake....someone told some
lies about me and it led to me being locked up." they will report
your lack of insight and your paranoid delusions. They are not
intersted to hear the fine details of your argument. Psychiatrists
have long ago learned that analyzing the fine details of a
delusional story is a waste of time. Instead they look for "themes".
Themes such as "persecution". So if you say "Person X did this to
me" you are paranoid. Or themes such as grandiosity. So if you say
"I know why person X did this... I was just about to bust his ass in
court" you are grandiose. You think you have special powers.

Great, but this only works if you're stable. Because you need
to spend time chatting with the nurses, you need to actively
participate in the activities they offer, and the learning curve
works both ways. Not only do they see how you're proceeding,
YOU get to learn what's "required" of you to get out.

It doesnt actually work like that. Except in the US where their stupid
insurance system encourages loony bins to keep the loonys in for
as long as they can get away with that, for the insurance money,
right thruout the modern first world now they only keep people in
loony bins when they are a real danger to themselves and others.

And even then, they take one hell of a risk with real loonys,
essentially because the risk of them killing someone is so low.

And (sadly) your sanity has little to do with it.
Basically, it comes down to liability again.

Like hell it does right thruout the modern first world.

If you're least likely to harm yourself, or others, THEN they'll let you go.

They let loons that are at a significant risk of harming themselves or others go.

You only have to look at the list that the cops have ended up executing to see that.

Though I want to stress that this does not necessarily
mean your mental disability (either real or self-induced
for the purposes of an experiment) is addressed. At all.

It cant actually be addressed with many of them,
particularly the ones that deny they are mad.

Dunno if you realise that PE has been involuntarily committed at least
twice now, and basically told the judge that they couldnt put him in the
loony bin because PE is god, and the constitution doesnt allow that.

So completely out of his tree that he couldnt manage to grasp that
thats all the proof the judge needed that he is completely barking mad.

The email works, it looks like its munged, but its not, use it like it is.

So don't bother with the normal, regular arguments that would steer
your path through the courts. What you need to say is this ... "I
realize now that person X is not out to get me. For a while I
thought he was and I was confused. But now I feel better. I know
that my thinking was wrong and I recognize that I became angry and
agitated and fearful for a while, and I'm sorry. I feel better now
and I know that nobody is trying to discredit me and I admit that I
yelled all those things a few days ago. But even though they seemed
to be true then, I realize now that they were not true."

Say this, and you've got a ticket home.

Unfortunately, if you really do suffer from some form of mental
disability, it's quite possible that you cannot separate what's going
on inside your head with reality. So you're really not in a position
to do any of that.

Or even take your meds, because you believe that you dont have a problem.

It's more likely you'll shift from episodes to periods of lucidity.
In this state, you can indeed do as you say above.

However, they'll keep you in there for long enough to gather paterns.
And if you're unstable it's not going to happen.

It's enough of a chore for for anyone sane let alone if you're ill.

The modern reality is that they dont have anything like enough places in
loony bins and there is one hell of a pressure to let the loonys out now.

So the answer to your question is sort of "yes". After the diagnosis
of insanity has been made, your best strategy is to admit the
diagnosis even if you think it wrong. Denying the diagnisis will
simply get you more and more trouble. Admit the diagnosis,
say you feel better now and everyone will get off your case.

Providing you're otherwise stable, and just part of an experiment,
once you're part of the system, you're right. It's the only way out.

Not anymore. ALL you have to do is not be as mad as some
of the rest because of the pressure on places in the bins now.

It's important to note that this is only one small part of the process.
Just saying you're crazy and you've realised the error of your ways
isn't going to do it.

Yes it will now.

It's a longer process, that unfortunately, will frustrate experiment
subjects to the point they might bit back. At which point, you're
automatically proved that you are indeed staying for the long haul.
Even if you're well.

Not anymore, the world has moved on, essentially due
to so many of the locked wards being closed down now.

Corse most of the loonys do prefer to not be in the bins.

Problem is, of course that it's then on the record that you have
admitted to insanity. So anything you say subsequently can be
dismissed as insane rantings.

No, the doctors and nurses are not stupid. They do however
work within the confines of their higher orders. So you ARE
playing a game, just it's not the game you THINK it is.

As long as you can hold an intelligent conversation, ask sensible
questions, are patient, participate in activities they may ask of you,
are patient, hold your tongue if they're ignoring you, or pissing you
off, or another patient is pissing you off...

PE actually rang me from the bin, quite literally, to ask me which
region free DVD player his wife should get for him that he could
use while he was in the bin. It had a rather complex system for
making it region free and I was amazed at how coherent he was
even while he was proclaiming that some god was absolutely
certainly communicating directly with him, because he managed
to end up with a particular message with the number 666 in one
of the online forums. That was just before he ended up completely
barking mad and decided that he is actually god.

It's difficult enough if there's otherwise nothing wrong with you, and
at the end of the day, even if you ARE ill, they don't actually help.

Corse they do with medication.

So sadly, the only people go get out, are either sane, or stable for
long enough to convince them you're not going to blow up anything,
yourself included.

Its nothing like that now.

This fares badly for those who really need help, because
their diagnosis never really sees the light of day.

That utterly mangles the real story.

 

[Rod Speed]

John Tserkezis wrote:

Asazel wrote

I thought I'd throw my 2c in.

Most of what you're saying is pretty much on the ball, however,
you're not playing the sanity card anymore. In mental hospitals
(or at least some of them), the rules have little to do with helping
people, and more with liability. That is, are you in a position that
the hospital would least likely be liable for anything stupid you did
once they let you out.

They arent liable even in the US.

So how do you get out of the looney-bin? What do you need to say
to get out? If you say "This is all a big mistake....someone told some
lies about me and it led to me being locked up." they will report
your lack of insight and your paranoid delusions. They are not
intersted to hear the fine details of your argument. Psychiatrists
have long ago learned that analyzing the fine details of a
delusional story is a waste of time. Instead they look for "themes".
Themes such as "persecution". So if you say "Person X did this to
me" you are paranoid. Or themes such as grandiosity. So if you say
"I know why person X did this... I was just about to bust his ass in
court" you are grandiose. You think you have special powers.

Great, but this only works if you're stable. Because you need
to spend time chatting with the nurses, you need to actively
participate in the activities they offer, and the learning curve
works both ways. Not only do they see how you're proceeding,
YOU get to learn what's "required" of you to get out.

It doesnt actually work like that. Except in the US where their stupid
insurance system encourages loony bins to keep the loonys in for
as long as they can get away with that, for the insurance money,
right thruout the modern first world now they only keep people in
loony bins when they are a real danger to themselves and others.

And even then, they take one hell of a risk with real loonys,
essentially because the risk of them killing someone is so low.

And (sadly) your sanity has little to do with it.
Basically, it comes down to liability again.

Like hell it does right thruout the modern first world.

If you're least likely to harm yourself, or others, THEN they'll let you go.

They let loons that are at a significant risk of harming themselves or others go.

You only have to look at the list that the cops have ended up executing to see that.

Though I want to stress that this does not necessarily
mean your mental disability (either real or self-induced
for the purposes of an experiment) is addressed. At all.

It cant actually be addressed with many of them,
particularly the ones that deny they are mad.

Dunno if you realise that PE has been involuntarily committed at least
twice now, and basically told the judge that they couldnt put him in the
loony bin because PE is god, and the constitution doesnt allow that.

So completely out of his tree that he couldnt manage to grasp that
thats all the proof the judge needed that he is completely barking mad.

The email works, it looks like its munged, but its not, use it like it is.

So don't bother with the normal, regular arguments that would steer
your path through the courts. What you need to say is this ... "I
realize now that person X is not out to get me. For a while I
thought he was and I was confused. But now I feel better. I know
that my thinking was wrong and I recognize that I became angry and
agitated and fearful for a while, and I'm sorry. I feel better now
and I know that nobody is trying to discredit me and I admit that I
yelled all those things a few days ago. But even though they seemed
to be true then, I realize now that they were not true."

Say this, and you've got a ticket home.

Unfortunately, if you really do suffer from some form of mental
disability, it's quite possible that you cannot separate what's going
on inside your head with reality. So you're really not in a position
to do any of that.

Or even take your meds, because you believe that you dont have a problem.

It's more likely you'll shift from episodes to periods of lucidity.
In this state, you can indeed do as you say above.

However, they'll keep you in there for long enough to gather paterns.
And if you're unstable it's not going to happen.

It's enough of a chore for for anyone sane let alone if you're ill.

The modern reality is that they dont have anything like enough places in
loony bins and there is one hell of a pressure to let the loonys out now.

So the answer to your question is sort of "yes". After the diagnosis
of insanity has been made, your best strategy is to admit the
diagnosis even if you think it wrong. Denying the diagnisis will
simply get you more and more trouble. Admit the diagnosis,
say you feel better now and everyone will get off your case.

Providing you're otherwise stable, and just part of an experiment,
once you're part of the system, you're right. It's the only way out.

Not anymore. ALL you have to do is not be as mad as some
of the rest because of the pressure on places in the bins now.

It's important to note that this is only one small part of the process.
Just saying you're crazy and you've realised the error of your ways
isn't going to do it.

Yes it will now.

It's a longer process, that unfortunately, will frustrate experiment
subjects to the point they might bit back. At which point, you're
automatically proved that you are indeed staying for the long haul.
Even if you're well.

Not anymore, the world has moved on, essentially due
to so many of the locked wards being closed down now.

Corse most of the loonys do prefer to not be in the bins.

Problem is, of course that it's then on the record that you have
admitted to insanity. So anything you say subsequently can be
dismissed as insane rantings.

No, the doctors and nurses are not stupid. They do however
work within the confines of their higher orders. So you ARE
playing a game, just it's not the game you THINK it is.

As long as you can hold an intelligent conversation, ask sensible
questions, are patient, participate in activities they may ask of you,
are patient, hold your tongue if they're ignoring you, or pissing you
off, or another patient is pissing you off...

PE actually rang me from the bin, quite literally, to ask me which
region free DVD player his wife should get for him that he could
use while he was in the bin. It had a rather complex system for
making it region free and I was amazed at how coherent he was
even while he was proclaiming that some god was absolutely
certainly communicating directly with him, because he managed
to end up with a particular message with the number 666 in one
of the online forums. That was just before he ended up completely
barking mad and decided that he is actually god.

It's difficult enough if there's otherwise nothing wrong with you, and
at the end of the day, even if you ARE ill, they don't actually help.

Corse they do with medication.

So sadly, the only people go get out, are either sane, or stable for
long enough to convince them you're not going to blow up anything,
yourself included.

Its nothing like that now.

This fares badly for those who really need help, because
their diagnosis never really sees the light of day.

That utterly mangles the real story.

 

[Rod Speed]

Asazel wrote:

You somehow think agreeing that you are insane will "prove" to them
you are
not insane?
That sounds like insanity to me

MrT.

This was an observation made by the people who did the experiment I
referred to, and when you think about it, it makes sense.

It sounds like a paradox, but it's true. Do this experiment in your
mind. Imagine somebody said you were crazy. They said that you were
yelling and screaming that people were out to get you. They reported
this to the local mental health authorities. They said you were
making all sorts of weird statements in your home, yelling so loudly
that they could hear it from the street. They said you were yelling
that the police were out to get you and lock you up.

I know it's implausible that someone would say this, but for the sake
of argument let's imagine they did.

So the local mental health people come to your door because they want
to check if you are a danger to yourself or others. You are
dumbfounded when they tell you what they have heard. You don't know
what to say, because it's a complete surprise and of course you deny
it all. After all, it's not even true.

So of course they say "well, why would someone say such a thing
then?" and of course you get a bit nervous and agitated. You say "I
really don't know.....I can only guess that someone is trying to
discredit me and make it appear that I'm insane. But who would do
such a thing? Why would they say this about me when it's not true?"

Or you just point out what has happened with that individual
that makes it certain that they are trying to shaft you.

So they think "Mmmm...this is all adding up. Listen to him...he's
telling us that he thinks unseen forces are trying to persecute him."
That matches the report we got about his rantings. So they decide
you're crazy and take you to the nearest looney-bin.

Upon arrival at the looney-bin you speak to the psychiatrist who is to
evaluate you. He has a brief report that says "Neighbours reported
patient yelling that people were out to get him. Upon questioning,
patient became agitated and pacing the room. He concluded that unseen
forces were plotting against him."

He's inclined to agree with the report. You do seem quite agitated,
after all, you've been handcuffed and taken from your home in the
back of a police van somewhere and you're not even sure where you
are. And of course you repeat your question to him - "Why am I here?
Who said these things about me? What right do you have to hold me
against my will? I demand you let me go!" At this time you test to
see if the door is locked. It is. You turn to the psychitrist with a
look of horror and say "What's happening here? What's going on?"

Obviously you're distressed and disoriented. You are agitated and need
sedating for your own protection.......You can imagine the next few
days.
So how do you get out of the looney-bin? What do you need to say to
get out? If you say "This is all a big mistake....someone told some
lies about me and it led to me being locked up." they will report
your lack of insight and your paranoid delusions. They are not
intersted to hear the fine details of your argument. Psychiatrists
have long ago learned that analyzing the fine details of a delusional
story is a waste of time. Instead they look for "themes". Themes such
as "persecution". So if you say "Person X did this to me" you are
paranoid. Or themes such as grandiosity. So if you say "I know why
person X did this... I was just about to bust his ass in court" you
are grandiose. You think you have special powers.
So don't bother with the normal, regular arguments that would steer
your path through the courts. What you need to say is this ... "I
realize now that person X is not out to get me. For a while I thought
he was and I was confused. But now I feel better. I know that my
thinking was wrong and I recognize that I became angry and agitated
and fearful for a while, and I'm sorry. I feel better now and I know
that nobody is trying to discredit me and I admit that I yelled all
those things a few days ago. But even though they seemed to be true
then, I realize now that they were not true."

Say this, and you've got a ticket home.

You dont need to fart around like that anymore, they are so short
of slots in the bin that you only have to not be at any real danger to
yourself or others and agree to take the meds and they will let you out.

So the answer to your question is sort of "yes". After the diagnosis
of insanity has been made, your best strategy is to admit the
diagnosis even if you think it wrong. Denying the diagnisis will
simply get you more and more trouble.

Not anymore. One who quite literally called me from the loony
bin still maintains that he's not mad at all and that he is actually
god, and refuses to take his meds, because he isnt mad, and
they never keep him in tbe bin very long at all.

Even when he has proclaimed that if Iraqis wont buy his
line about a return of the caliphate, he will just kill them.

Not clear if the psychs are aware of that tho.

Admit the diagnosis, say you feel better now and everyone will get off your case.

They will if you just look like you dont currently have the problem too.

Problem is, of course that it's then on the record that you have
admitted to insanity. So anything you say subsequently can be
dismissed as insane rantings.

Most of them dont actually rant. The one I know well can be
surprisingly coherent even when proclaiming that he is god.

 

[David M]

On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:05:53 +1100, John Tserkezis
<jt@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote:

So sadly, the only people go get out, are either sane, or stable for
long enough to convince them you're not going to blow up anything,
yourself included.

This is so true. The would be murderer that I mention in my web page
did exactly that. He convinced the Qld State chief psycharitrist that
he was fit to rejoin society, then went off and tried to do in both
his then wife and child. I believe he got a bit of time in Boggo Road,
I will try and locate him

Sorry to piggytail on your thread, but I am spreading the word if only
for some self satisfaction in nailing the bitch.

http://vickyroos.com.au/index.html

 

[John Tserkezis]

On 30/01/2010 3:24 AM, Rod Speed wrote:

They arent liable even in the US.

That's nice, but the system appears to revolve around liability rather
than actually getting the patient real help.

Great, but this only works if you're stable. Because you need
to spend time chatting with the nurses, you need to actively
participate in the activities they offer, and the learning curve
works both ways. Not only do they see how you're proceeding,
YOU get to learn what's "required" of you to get out.

It doesnt actually work like that. Except in the US where their stupid
insurance system encourages loony bins to keep the loonys in for
as long as they can get away with that, for the insurance money,
right thruout the modern first world now they only keep people in
loony bins when they are a real danger to themselves and others.

Been there, done that, that IS how it works.

And even then, they take one hell of a risk with real loonys,
essentially because the risk of them killing someone is so low.

You're confusing "mentally disabled" with fucktards. The difference
is, one can think for themselves, but is outside the justistriction of
the mental hospitals, so they don't touch them.

If you're least likely to harm yourself, or others, THEN they'll let you go.

They let loons that are at a significant risk of harming themselves or others go.

Believing that Jews are the bane of the earth and all must be
exterminated is not classed as a mental illness.
Which explains why they're still running around free.

You only have to look at the list that the cops have ended up executing to see that.

No, most of those are classed to have been "slipped through the
cracks". The cracks ironically, that would have had them in hospital
and not actually helped them.
The ones like Dennis Ferguson that are not classed as pathological, can
think for themselves, and are kept outside the hospitals because there's
"nothing wrong with them", and are protected by police because they're
at risk of the public royally fucking them up.

It cant actually be addressed with many of them,
particularly the ones that deny they are mad.

But it doesn't make a difference. Most of the inpatients will say
they're fine, all the while kicking in doors trying to make their point.
This is not used as a determining factor.

Dunno if you realise that PE has been involuntarily committed at least
twice now, and basically told the judge that they couldnt put him in the
loony bin because PE is god, and the constitution doesnt allow that.

It doesn't actually make a difference. You can walk in under your own
steam, or be dragged in kicking and screaming. Once they make the call
that you're in there for mental assistance, you're stuck till either the
administrators or the courts make the call you're "well" again.

Though, I had seen one guy who stayed longer, all the while the nurses
saying "this is a mental hospital, not your personal accommodation"
struck me as odd. Till I realised that if you scream loud enough,
they'll *make* the paperwork comply.
Turns out, he was inbetween homes, and needed some time during the
transition period. His wide-screen TV, DVD player, and assorted audio
system was in storage while this was happening. (it was largely
co-incidence he was in the hospital at that time)
I turned to my other side and saw someone who was properly homeless,
lived in bus shelters and such, and was quite coherent in realising that
was his life and that was ok. And once he got out (once the system
determined he was "well" again, he'd be going back to that. Again.

Or even take your meds, because you believe that you dont have a problem.

No, most of us knew we had a problem. Exceptions may have been those
with their first episodes who didn't quite realise they were having an
episiode. (it screws with your perception of reality among other things).

The modern reality is that they dont have anything like enough places in
loony bins and there is one hell of a pressure to let the loonys out now.

That's another issue entirely. Those who are classed as a lesser risk
are let go early, all the while the hospitals ensuring they're going to
take their meds.
They moved a bunch of us around every night to different wards because
new people were coming in all the time.

Not anymore. ALL you have to do is not be as mad as some
of the rest because of the pressure on places in the bins now.

Not really. If you really are part of a blind experiment, as long as
you can name drop and get groups on the outside with documents to prove
you WERE part of some test, you'll royally piss of the hospital for
wasting their time, and they'll get nasty about it before kicking your arse.
I doubt you'll be in there longer than a day after that's sorted out.

On the other hand, if this doesn't check out, it'll be documented, and
you've just assured you're staying there longer.

It's important to note that this is only one small part of the process.
Just saying you're crazy and you've realised the error of your ways
isn't going to do it.

Yes it will now.

Bullshit. I did that the day I walked in. I told them my episodes
didn't last longer than a few days (and this one had just run out of
puff anyway). They had my history accessible through my phsych, and
would have pinned down why I was in there fairly quickly.
That was sorted out within the first few days, but I wasn't officially
let out till two weeks later.
And they were free with me. Mobile phones, laptops, razor blades and a
whole range of other things are only allowable on request, and are kept
by the nurses in their area under lock and key.
I had all of those and more in my own lockers (yes, plural) and kept my
phone on my hip the whole time. I worked on the laptop in the common
room way past their phone/laptop time curfew and they didn't even bat an
eyelid.
Still kept me in there though...

Corse most of the loonys do prefer to not be in the bins.

Well, that goes for everyone. If you *know* you're unwell, they're not
helping, so clearly want to be somewhere else that DOES help, and if
you're climbing the walls, you can't tell the difference anyway.

PE actually rang me from the bin, quite literally, to ask me which
region free DVD player his wife should get for him that he could
use while he was in the bin. It had a rather complex system for
making it region free and I was amazed at how coherent he was
even while he was proclaiming that some god was absolutely
certainly communicating directly with him, because he managed
to end up with a particular message with the number 666 in one
of the online forums. That was just before he ended up completely
barking mad and decided that he is actually god.

That's why they don't take the fact you strung two words together as
gospel that you're ok. They actually use a long complex series of tests
and regular checks to do that.
But you you only know what they are if you've been through the system
before *AND* you're actually stable enough to recognise certain things.
Either way, it's going to cost you time.

It's difficult enough if there's otherwise nothing wrong with you, and
at the end of the day, even if you ARE ill, they don't actually help.

Corse they do with medication.

Medication is not the end-all-be-all of cures.

I'm particularly resistant to medication (took a year and a half to
find something that actually worked). And my last stay in hospital was
due to an educated risk mixing some meds that are reputed to have a low
risk of interaction, even though it was proved (with other meds) earlier
it was not a problem for me.
Well, this particular mix worked *really* well for about a month before
things got *really* nasty.
So my stay there consisted of them force-feeding me what I was taking
already (minus the new one that caused it). And it was another week and
half before I got out.

So sadly, the only people go get out, are either sane, or stable for
long enough to convince them you're not going to blow up anything,
yourself included.

Its nothing like that now.

Yet it is.

 

[Rod Speed]

John Tserkezis wrote

Rod Speed wrote
John Tserkezis wrote

Most of what you're saying is pretty much on the ball, however,
you're not playing the sanity card anymore. In mental hospitals
(or at least some of them), the rules have little to do with helping
people, and more with liability. That is, are you in a position that
the hospital would least likely be liable for anything stupid you did
once they let you out.

They arent liable even in the US.

That's nice, but the system appears to revolve around
liability rather than actually getting the patient real help.

No it does not. It actually revolves around trying to work out who is the
worst because of the severe shortage of slots in the current loony bins.

And modern medication does provide real help for most of the loonys.

The main problem is getting them to take their meds,
particularly those who dont believe they have a problem.

Great, but this only works if you're stable. Because you need
to spend time chatting with the nurses, you need to actively
participate in the activities they offer, and the learning curve
works both ways. Not only do they see how you're proceeding,
YOU get to learn what's "required" of you to get out.

It doesnt actually work like that. Except in the US where their
stupid insurance system encourages loony bins to keep the
loonys in for as long as they can get away with that, for the
insurance money, right thruout the modern first world now
they only keep people in loony bins when they are a real
danger to themselves and others.

Been there, done that, that IS how it works.

Like hell it is. If it was, PE would still be locked up.

In spades with all those loonys that end up killing themselves.

And you wouldnt see so many executed by the cops. Hardly any
of those have not had any involvement with the system previously.

And even then, they take one hell of a risk with real loonys,
essentially because the risk of them killing someone is so low.

You're confusing "mentally disabled" with fucktards.

Nope. The bulk of murders committed by those who have
a severe mental problem are already known to the system.

The difference is, one can think for themselves,

Plenty of loonys can do that fine. Most of them arent even raving mad.

but is outside the justistriction of the mental hospitals, so they don't touch them.

Mindlessly silly.

If you're least likely to harm yourself, or others, THEN they'll let you go.

They let loons that are at a significant risk of harming themselves or others go.

Believing that Jews are the bane of the earth and all
must be exterminated is not classed as a mental illness.

Yes, that may or may not be a symptom of a mental illness.

But 'hearing the voices' and various other symptoms certainly are.

Someone who proclaims that he is god because he
recieved a message with the number 666 is barking
mad, even if he may be quite rational otherwise.

Which explains why they're still running around free.

The bulk of schitzophrenics arent kept in locked wards.

You only have to look at the list that the cops have ended up executing to see that.

No, most of those are classed to have been "slipped through the cracks".

Like hell they have. They have been diagnosed with a mental
illness and are no long kept in locked wards anymore.

Only a tiny subset end up confronting the cops and end up being executed by the cops.

Almost all of them are in fact known to the system before that happens.

The cracks ironically, that would have had them in hospital and not actually helped them.

It isnt even possible to 'help' quite a few with mental illness.

If someone has decided that they are god, or napoleon etc,
and believes that they are fine and that there is no point in
taking any medication because they are fine, there is
nothing much anyone can do about that, hospitals included.

When my next door neighbour ended up with the entire school
assembled on the other side of their oval, with him with some
teacher stuck in a car with him stabbing the car with a fucking
great knife, with a hell of a history of previous problems, even
you would realise that he does have a problem. He didnt stay
in the loony bin for that long, essentially because he didnt
refuse to take his medication.

The ones like Dennis Ferguson that are not classed as pathological,
can think for themselves, and are kept outside the hospitals because
there's "nothing wrong with them", and are protected by police
because they're at risk of the public royally fucking them up.

There isnt any evidence that he is anything more than a criminal.

Even Martin Bryant, who clearly has some real mental problems,
didnt see the system decide that he has no mental problems.

It cant actually be addressed with many of them,
particularly the ones that deny they are mad.

But it doesn't make a difference. Most of the inpatients will say they're fine,

That is just plain wrong. Plenty of schitzophrenics and manic
depressives are well aware that they are currently having an
episode and seek some assistence and are basically turned
away because of a shortage of slots in the loony bins.

This one was already in the hospital system and killed himself anyway.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/02/2730332.htm

all the while kicking in doors trying to make their
point. This is not used as a determining factor.

Dunno if you realise that PE has been involuntarily committed at least
twice now, and basically told the judge that they couldnt put him in the
loony bin because PE is god, and the constitution doesnt allow that.

It doesn't actually make a difference.

Corse it does. He's clearly barking mad and they didnt keep him in the bin for long.

You can walk in under your own steam, or be dragged in kicking
and screaming. Once they make the call that you're in there for
mental assistance, you're stuck till either the administrators or
the courts make the call you're "well" again.

Nice theory, pity about what actually happened with PE and
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/02/2730332.htm
and all those who end up getting executed by the cops.

Though, I had seen one guy who stayed longer, all the while
the nurses saying "this is a mental hospital, not your personal
accommodation" struck me as odd. Till I realised that if you
scream loud enough, they'll *make* the paperwork comply.

Didnt work with Berkhour's parents.

Turns out, he was inbetween homes, and needed some time during
the transition period. His wide-screen TV, DVD player, and assorted
audio system was in storage while this was happening. (it was largely
co-incidence he was in the hospital at that time)

Irrelevant to the large numbers who clearly are barking
mad that dont get kept in the bin until they are sane.

I turned to my other side and saw someone who was properly homeless,
lived in bus shelters and such, and was quite coherent in realising
that was his life and that was ok. And once he got out (once the
system determined he was "well" again, he'd be going back to that.
Again.

That isnt even the basis for release anymore.

Or even take your meds, because you believe that you dont have a problem.

No, most of us knew we had a problem. Exceptions may have been those
with their first episodes who didn't quite realise they were having an
episiode. (it screws with your perception of reality among other things).

Paul STILL doesnt believe he has a problem, and STILL believes he is god.

And he was involuntarily committed at least twice.

The modern reality is that they dont have anything like enough places in
loony bins and there is one hell of a pressure to let the loonys out now.

That's another issue entirely.

Nope, thats the reason they operate a revolving door system.

Those who are classed as a lesser risk are let go early,

So much for your claim that they only let you go when you are judged to be sane.

all the while the hospitals ensuring they're going to take their meds.

Have fun explaining Paul who doesnt and keeps telling them that
they dont have a clue and that there is nothing wrong with him.

They moved a bunch of us around every night to different
wards because new people were coming in all the time.

And they release those they believe are not a danger
to themselves or others, not because they are sane.

Not anymore. ALL you have to do is not be as mad as some
of the rest because of the pressure on places in the bins now.

Not really.

Yes, really.

If you really are part of a blind experiment, as long as you
can name drop and get groups on the outside with documents
to prove you WERE part of some test, you'll royally piss of
the hospital for wasting their time, and they'll get nasty about
it before kicking your arse. I doubt you'll be in there longer
than a day after that's sorted out.

Not even possible if they have decided that you are mad and
dont bother to check with who you claim is running the test.

On the other hand, if this doesn't check out, it'll be documented,
and you've just assured you're staying there longer.

Doesnt work like that when they have a severe shortage of slots in the bin.

It's important to note that this is only one small part of the process.
Just saying you're crazy and you've realised the error of your ways
isn't going to do it.

Yes it will now.

Bullshit.

Fact.

I did that the day I walked in. I told them my episodes didn't
last longer than a few days (and this one had just run out of puff
anyway). They had my history accessible through my phsych,
and would have pinned down why I was in there fairly quickly.

That was sorted out within the first few days,
but I wasn't officially let out till two weeks later.

And they were free with me. Mobile phones, laptops, razor blades
and a whole range of other things are only allowable on request,
and are kept by the nurses in their area under lock and key.

I had all of those and more in my own lockers (yes, plural) and kept my phone
on my hip the whole time. I worked on the laptop in the common room way
past their phone/laptop time curfew and they didn't even bat an eyelid.
Still kept me in there though...

Presumably they didnt agree that the episode had ended.

What is your diagnosis ?

Corse most of the loonys do prefer to not be in the bins.

Well, that goes for everyone.

Like hell it does.

If you *know* you're unwell, they're not helping, so clearly
want to be somewhere else that DOES help, and if you're
climbing the walls, you can't tell the difference anyway.

Or you have enough of a clue to realise that there are plenty
of episodes for which there is no magic wand to wave and
realise that its much safer to be in a bin where assistence
is very close if the shit does hit the fan and professionals
can see when you are completely out of your tree again.

PE actually rang me from the bin, quite literally, to ask me which
region free DVD player his wife should get for him that he could
use while he was in the bin. It had a rather complex system for
making it region free and I was amazed at how coherent he was
even while he was proclaiming that some god was absolutely
certainly communicating directly with him, because he managed
to end up with a particular message with the number 666 in one
of the online forums. That was just before he ended up completely
barking mad and decided that he is actually god.

That's why they don't take the fact you strung two words
together as gospel that you're ok. They actually use a
long complex series of tests and regular checks to do that.

And that is nothing like 100% successful.

But you you only know what they are if you've been through
the system before *AND* you're actually stable enough to
recognise certain things. Either way, it's going to cost you time.

Not if they have a shortage of slots in the bin.

It's difficult enough if there's otherwise nothing wrong with you, and
at the end of the day, even if you ARE ill, they don't actually help.

Corse they do with medication.

Medication is not the end-all-be-all of cures.

Yes, but nothing else works anything like as well.

Thats why so many of the locked wards could be closed.

I'm particularly resistant to medication (took a year and a half to
find something that actually worked). And my last stay in hospital
was due to an educated risk mixing some meds that are reputed
to have a low risk of interaction, even though it was proved (with
other meds) earlier it was not a problem for me.

Well, this particular mix worked *really* well for
about a month before things got *really* nasty.

So my stay there consisted of them force-feeding me what
I was taking already (minus the new one that caused it).
And it was another week and half before I got out.

So sadly, the only people go get out, are either sane,
or stable for long enough to convince them you're not
going to blow up anything, yourself included.

Its nothing like that now.

Yet it is.

Have fun explaining all those the cops end up executing.

 

[Asazel]

Please lets keep this a discussion of principles rather than the specifics
of any one person's experience.

I am a doctor and through the years I have "certified" (the terminology
differs from state to state) a few people when the need came about. That is,
I had them involuntarily detained in a psychiartic hospital. My powers were
simply to have them sent to the hospital for evaluation. After that, it was
out of my hands and mostly I did not get any feedback about what happened.

My experience (mostly in Victoria) was this...

The person either came himself, or was brought by the family because their
life had fallen into such disarray that they were living in squalor, not
eating, not bathing, getting into fights. Sometimes the family was fearful
that they would kill themselves or crash their car or "something" would
happen that would end in tragedy.

I agree it should not be against the law to think you are Jesus. But if this
belief causes you to drive your car at 100 k's through a school crossing
because you think God will look after things for you, then something needs
to be done.

The hard part is predicting what a person might do with their crazy beliefs.
If someone decided today they were Jesus, then perhaps they would sit in
their lounge room and just feel good about it. Or perhaps they would decide
to find the devil and crash his bus, including all the passengers. When
you're a doctor and someone cuts their finger and after putting on a
band-aid they say "it's OK, because I'm Jesus so the wound will heal very
quickly." your heart skips a beat because you don't know what they might do
with this belief.

On one hand you don't want to lock up some poor guy who harmlessly medidates
each day in his lounge room, but on the other hand you fear he might do
something to a bus driver, mistaking him for satan.

So you tend to err on the side of caution. If you think this is overkill,
just ask yourself how many smoke detectors have to be installed to save just
1 life from a fire. I have no idea but it must surely be a ratio about
50,000 to 1. Nobody thinks twice about this ratio when they install the
smoke detector. They just buy it and screw it to the roof.

But is it OK to hospitalize 50,000 people in order to save 1 life?

How about 10,000 people ?

OK, then, what about 1,000 people ?

Mmmm... what about 50 people ?

Ahh... OK .. how about 5 people ?

Where do you think the "acceptable" ratio of hospitalizations to lives saved
falls?

Regardless of the ratio you choose, if you were one of the 50,000, or one of
the 10,000 or one of the 1,000 or one of the 50 or 5 people, would YOU feel
any less aggreived when they let you out of hospital saying "Well, sorry
'bout that. It was all a big mistake. But we thought it was safer to lock
you up rather than run the risk of you crashing that bus. We don't make this
mistake very often you know. Only 1 in XXXXX times. And society agreed that
1 in XXXXX was an acceptable ratio."

Seriously - would you feel any better, and any less aggrieved if they
offered you the explanation given above?

Probably not. So the obligation is to make the ratio as high as possbile.
"Better 10 guilty men go free than convict a single innocent man." Sheesh..
10 to 1. In that case, about 2 million Australians should be in mental
hospitals now, just in case they decide to do something silly.

I would challenge anybody in this group to ask any medical school or any
institution of psychiatric education in this country to ask this question :
"What methods does you institution teach to your students in order to enable
them to make the diagnosis of sanity? Do you have a lecture devoted to the
topic of "How to recognize that someone is sane?".

The answer would always be the same. "We teach our students to recognize
insanity. We are in the business of recognizing and treating insanity. Why
would we devote ourselves to detecting the opposite of what we seek to
identify and treat?

It's not good enough for the psychiatric community to be able to detect
insanity. Anybody can do that. They should focus more on improving their
ability to detect sanity because that's what they can't do at present.

If you look at the original reference I gave, you will see that when "sham"
patients were admitted to hospital, not a single one was suspected by their
doctor as being an imposter. But nearly 50% of them WERE detected as
imposters by OTHER patients in the ward. What happened to these other
patient's assertions that the volunteers were in fact imposters? They were
dismissed as the rantings of madmen.

 

[|-|ercules]

"Asazel" <asazel@thegroup.com> wrote

Regardless of the ratio you choose, if you were one of the 50,000, or one of
the 10,000 or one of the 1,000 or one of the 50 or 5 people, would YOU feel
any less aggreived when they let you out of hospital saying "Well, sorry
'bout that. It was all a big mistake. But we thought it was safer to lock
you up rather than run the risk of you crashing that bus. We don't make this
mistake very often you know. Only 1 in XXXXX times. And society agreed that
1 in XXXXX was an acceptable ratio."

Your error is 9999 in 10000, not 1 in 10000.

I'd settle for 1 in 10. The Psychiatrists Quality Assurance Commision sends in 1 imposter for you
to evaluate for every 2 standard admissions from family, police, self admission, etc.

If you admit more than 1 in 10 imposters for involuntary detainment you lose your license
to practice psychiatry.

Sound fair? Your correlation between psychiatrists' diagnosis is what? 30%. A simple blind
test would show what a load of shit they practice, mickey mouse degrees mean nothing. Psychologists
with the license to dope up people, send someone in and they dope them up. Fucking idiots study
psychology, psychiatrists are Arts degree graduates with a hyperdermic needle.

Herc

 

[|-|ercules]

forgot my old sig line..

Herc
--
What's the difference between a GP and a psychiatrist?
A GP will tell you when you are healthy.

 

[Asazel]

By now you've seen a fair amount of my writing. Just for the heck of it, in
keeping with the claim that started this whole thing,

What is my name ?


"|-|ercules" <h@r.c> wrote in message
news:3IO8n.4372$pv.3446@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

forgot my old sig line..

Herc
--
What's the difference between a GP and a psychiatrist?
A GP will tell you when you are healthy.

 

[Rod Speed]

Asazel wrote

Please lets keep this a discussion of principles rather than the specifics of any one person's experience.

Request denied. You cant ignore personal experiences, even if the person is a loony.

I am a doctor and through the years I have "certified" (the
terminology differs from state to state) a few people when the need came about. That is, I had them involuntarily
detained in a
psychiartic hospital. My powers were simply to have them sent to the hospital for evaluation. After that, it was out
of my hands and mostly I did not get any feedback about what happened.

My experience (mostly in Victoria) was this...

The person either came himself, or was brought by the family because their life had fallen into such disarray that
they were living in squalor, not eating, not bathing, getting into fights.

Plenty get involuntarily sent to a loony bin because their behaviour
has become so extreme that its obvious they have a problem.

Sometimes the family was fearful that they would kill themselves

And hordes do just that.

or crash their car or "something" would happen that would end in tragedy.

I agree it should not be against the law to think you are Jesus. But if this belief causes you to drive your car at
100 k's through a school crossing because you think God will look after things for you, then something needs to be
done.

And even if you just believe you are napoleon etc, its a fair stretch
to claim that you should be welcome to believe anything you like etc.

The hard part is predicting what a person might do with their crazy beliefs.

Particularly when with so many its their personal circumstances
that can produce a situation that can see some pretty undesirable
behaviour like killing themselves or others etc.

Corse the other problem there is that it may well be that if you develop
a serious mental illness which completely fucks your life, suicide may
well be just as appropriate as it can be with incurable cancer etc or
even just deciding that your future prospects dont appeal etc.

If someone decided today they were Jesus, then perhaps they would sit in their lounge room and just feel good about
it. Or perhaps they would decide to find the devil and crash his bus, including all the passengers.

And its essentially impossible to predict what some might decide to do.

When you're a doctor and someone cuts their finger and after putting on a band-aid they say "it's OK, because I'm
Jesus so the wound will heal very quickly." your heart
skips a beat because you don't know what they might do with this belief.

Why is that any different to the loons that decide that if some god
or other has decided that its time for them to die, who are they to
interfere with what some god has decided should happen to them etc ?

On one hand you don't want to lock up some poor guy who harmlessly
medidates each day in his lounge room, but on the other hand you fear
he might do something to a bus driver, mistaking him for satan.

And that is exactly what happened with one loon I know.

He worked for a mate of mine, and one day that mate decided that
he looked a bit odd when he was walking towards him across the
workshop one weekend afternoon. The reason he looked odd was
because there was no hand on the end of his arm and the loon
didnt seem to think that that was significant. Turns out that he
had taken the biblical exhortation 'if thine hand offends thee, cut
it off' very literally, and had done that, with a radial arm saw.

My mate reconed that they should have sown the hand back on backwards to teach him a lesson.

He later killed his defacto's little kid who was presumably his own kid,
because he decided that he was the devil. Kid was all of 2 at the time
and he did it with the kid cowering behind the dunny pedestal, with a
fucking great knife.

So you tend to err on the side of caution. If you think this is
overkill, just ask yourself how many smoke detectors have to be
installed to save just 1 life from a fire. I have no idea but it must
surely be a ratio about 50,000 to 1. Nobody thinks twice about this ratio when they install the smoke detector. They
just buy it and screw it to the roof.

I dont.

But is it OK to hospitalize 50,000 people in order to save 1 life?

How about 10,000 people ?

OK, then, what about 1,000 people ?

Mmmm... what about 50 people ?

Ahh... OK .. how about 5 people ?

Where do you think the "acceptable" ratio of hospitalizations to lives saved falls?

All pretty academic when it isnt really feasible to work out who might kill someone.

Plenty dont have that great a control over their behaviour, its
just not feasible to lock them up because they might kill someone.

Regardless of the ratio you choose, if you were one of the 50,000, or
one of the 10,000 or one of the 1,000 or one of the 50 or 5 people,
would YOU feel any less aggreived when they let you out of hospital
saying "Well, sorry 'bout that. It was all a big mistake. But we
thought it was safer to lock you up rather than run the risk of you
crashing that bus. We don't make this mistake very often you know.
Only 1 in XXXXX times. And society agreed that 1 in XXXXX was an
acceptable ratio."

Or just because there is a much higher risk of you killing yourself.

Seriously - would you feel any better, and any less aggrieved if they offered you the explanation given above?

Yes, it matters why people do something.

Probably not. So the obligation is to make the ratio as high as possbile. "Better 10 guilty men go free than convict a
single innocent man." Sheesh.. 10 to 1. In that case, about 2 million Australians should be in mental hospitals now,
just in case they decide to do something silly.

And hordes more locked up because they cant
always control their behaviour when pissed etc.

I would challenge anybody in this group to ask any medical school or any institution of psychiatric education in this
country to ask this
question : "What methods does you institution teach to your students
in order to enable them to make the diagnosis of sanity? Do you have
a lecture devoted to the topic of "How to recognize that someone is sane?".

You'd just get the usual waffle about the diagnostic criteria for mental
illness, but would also get fed the line that they dont normally lock
people up unless there is a significant risk of self harm or harm to others.

The answer would always be the same. "We teach our students to recognize insanity. We are in the business of
recognizing and
treating insanity. Why would we devote ourselves to detecting the opposite of what we seek to identify and treat?

Hardly any would answer like that.

It's not good enough for the psychiatric community to be able to detect insanity. Anybody can do that.

Thats very arguable indeed with the less serious forms of insanity like depression.

They should focus more on improving their ability to detect sanity because that's what they can't do at present.

It isnt even possible to define sanity, let alone detect what you cant even define.

If you look at the original reference I gave, you will see that when "sham" patients were admitted to hospital, not a
single one was suspected by their doctor as being an imposter.

Because imposters are so rare with mental illness
except when it might get them off a criminal charge etc.

There arent even that many that try to fake that so they get an invalid pension etc.

But nearly 50% of them WERE detected as imposters by OTHER patients in the ward.

Trouble is that it isnt possible to be sure whether the imposters presented identically
to other patients and the doctors, or whether that is just due to the fact that its not
so easy to fool those who are mad themselves, or just that they had a hell of a lot
more contact with the other patients than they ever did with the doctors etc.

What happened to these other patient's assertions that the volunteers were in fact imposters? They were dismissed as
the rantings of madmen.

Few actually rant and most of the doctors know that.

 

[|-|ercules]

"Asazel" <asazel@thegroup.com> wrote

By now you've seen a fair amount of my writing. Just for the heck of it, in
keeping with the claim that started this whole thing,

What is my name ?

It's a side effect of the actual *power* that makes it possible for me to guess names or aliases.

The *power* is that I get an indication of what the message is like by seeing the alias.

But Asazel doesn't mean anything to me.

Guessing peoples' alias might seem lame, but if I was put in a sealed booth after making a post
and the replies were given to me and a multi choice list of aliases, I could more often than average
spot the poster of each message.

But congratulations for being the first shrink I know to NOT go from "paranormal claim" to "must stupefy".

Here's a good example:

http://groups.google.com.au/group/sci.skeptic/msg/9efa18d0c7c7d1de?hl=en


and here's one that happened 365 days after I made the claim "their message is reflective of their alias" on 02 02 2002,
the dawn of homo sapien 2.

http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.magic/msg/b92519b20de3941e?hl=en


Herc

 

[Loreen]

Asazel wrote:

By now you've seen a fair amount of my writing. Just for the heck of
it, in keeping with the claim that started this whole thing,

What is my name ?

Who gives a fuck.

Do I win?

 

[|-|ercules]

"Asazel" <asazel@thegroup.com> wrote in ...

By now you've seen a fair amount of my writing. Just for the heck of it, in
keeping with the claim that started this whole thing,

What is my name ?

Put it in a list with 3 other random options. I might get that $100,000 yet!

Herc

 

[Loreen]

Rod Speed wrote:

Asazel wrote

Please lets keep this a discussion of principles rather than the
specifics of any one person's experience.

Request denied.

Request granted, but on condition that you (Asazel) provide me with a brown
paper bag filled with lots of $100, for free. Agree?

 

[Loreen]

Rod Speed wrote:

PE actually rang me from the bin, quite literally,

Well, it was actually intercom. They have adjoining rooms, you know.

 

[DM]

On 1/30/10 2:04 PM, Asazel wrote:

Please lets keep this a discussion of principles rather than the
specifics of any one person's experience.

I am a doctor

Now that's a delusion if ever I saw one.
Time expire on your compulsory treatment order?


--
DM
Personal opinion only