Grocery Delivery in the Boonies...

[David Brown]

On 24/11/2020 17:13, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

I asked some French waiters if they got the 15% \"service compris\" fee.
They laughed bitterly.

Why on earth would you think they got the 15% service charge as though
it was some kind of bonus or equivalent of a tip? The point of a
\"service charge\" is what the restaurant charges because they have to pay
the waiters to do their job. It is only noted on menus in case people
think the price of the food or drinks is higher than they expect, or so
that they know tips are not required or expected.

The restaurant gets the 15% service charge. Then it pays the waiters -
just like it pays the cooks, the washer-ups, the manager, and everyone
else who works there. And just like everyone else, it costs the
employer significantly more per employee than just their pay - there are
all sorts of taxes, insurance, uniforms, and other costs. (And if you
live in a backwards country without a proper health service, the
employer also has to pay for that.) The restaurant also has to make a
profit. What is left after that, in a reasonably well-run restaurant,
is going to be aggregated over time (so that waiters get the same pay
for the same time at work, regardless of how busy the place is).

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 20:22:21 +0100, David Brown
<david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 24/11/2020 16:36, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:48:13 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 24/11/2020 08:02, Rickster C wrote:
It\'s nice living on a lake. Pretty view, fun activities. It\'s a bit
remote though. They did put in a grocery store a while back, so no
more 20 mile drives to stock up. But it\'s just one store and if they
don\'t have what you like, tough. Then there is the pandemic where so
many people around here think it\'s fake and don\'t bother with masks,
although they do mostly respect distance.

There was no delivery of pretty much anything other than UPS, Fedex
and USPS. Until now. Instacart seems to be delivering to the area
now. It\'s the same supermarket that\'s nearby, but now it comes to me
instead of me going to it.

I had $100 order delivered tonight and they brought it in not much
more than an hour after sending an apology saying it would be over
two hours. They texted me about shortages and I had opportunities
to substitute. I know now to keep the phone handy because they don\'t
waste time and want me to respond quickly. I didn\'t get some canned
tomatoes because I didn\'t select a repacement quickly enough. But
now I know. They did deliver nearly 100 lbs of stuff for free with a
$5 charge for the ordering and a suggested $5 tip. Next time I\'ll
tip more, it\'s not so easy to find my place. It\'s pretty cool
getting stuff delivered in an hour!!!


That sounds like good service.

But I always find it strange that the USA is still stuck in a medieval
barter system for some parts of its economy - the \"tip\". If it costs
$10 dollars to handle the order and delivery, then they should charge
$10. If it costs more for big loads, or for more distant customers,
then they should either charge more to such customers, or have a
slightly larger charge for everyone so that it evens out.

When you sell electronics, you don\'t tell customers that the board costs
$100 and suggest a $20 dollar tip to the guy that soldered it.

Rare and occasional tips for exceptional service are fair enough. But
\"suggested\" tips, or tips that are virtually obligatory, are nothing
more than a way for an employer to cheat on taxes, underpay employees,
and skip on whatever payments an employer is supposed to make on behalf
of the employees. (I don\'t know what these are in the USA - typically
it is for things like pensions, social security contributions, etc.) It
means customers can\'t properly judge the real costs of services, and
feel pressured into paying more than the service is worth. It means the
system takes advantage of kind and generous people and rewards the
greedy and selfish. It means honest tax payers pay more, and the state
can do less, because you have a large unregulated black market of
cash-in-hand payments.

An honest and open economy works better for all parts, as far as I can see.

What\'s dishonest or secretive about a tip?

I\'ve already answered that.


Unlike a lot of europe, the worker-guys actually get the tip.

Is that based on knowledge, experience, or just prejudice? It is common
in Europe that tips in an establishment are collected together and
divided amongst all the workers.

And it\'s tax-free.

Exactly. Tax-free, unregulated payments with cash-in-hand that is not
recorded anywhere - when it is used instead of normal payments, it is
known as the \"black market\".

It means \"thank you for the personal service\" and is an
effective incentive.

Getting /properly/ paid by your employer for doing your job is all the
economic incentive people need. Getting thanked, meaning customers say
\"thank you\", or talk to you - that is personal thanks. In exceptional
circumstances, leaving a tip for outstanding service is personal thanks.

Having customers judge you and determine whether they will give you
enough charity to let you pay your rent /and/ buy food this week,
because your pay is not sufficient - that\'s not thanks or incentive.
That\'s desperation.


It\'s socialism one-on-one.

That is not how socialism works. Socialism is about society helping
individuals.

So they don\'t have to be helpful, one-on-one, to real people,
themselves.

Maybe you prefer surly French waiters.


Is that based on knowledge, experience, or just prejudice?

Three months driving around France. Some waiters were great, some not.

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:27:02 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

tirsdag den 24. november 2020 kl. 18.47.10 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 09:20:30 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

tirsdag den 24. november 2020 kl. 16.36.23 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:48:13 +0100, David Brown
david...@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 24/11/2020 08:02, Rickster C wrote:
It\'s nice living on a lake. Pretty view, fun activities. It\'s a bit
remote though. They did put in a grocery store a while back, so no
more 20 mile drives to stock up. But it\'s just one store and if they
don\'t have what you like, tough. Then there is the pandemic where so
many people around here think it\'s fake and don\'t bother with masks,
although they do mostly respect distance.

There was no delivery of pretty much anything other than UPS, Fedex
and USPS. Until now. Instacart seems to be delivering to the area
now. It\'s the same supermarket that\'s nearby, but now it comes to me
instead of me going to it.

I had $100 order delivered tonight and they brought it in not much
more than an hour after sending an apology saying it would be over
two hours. They texted me about shortages and I had opportunities
to substitute. I know now to keep the phone handy because they don\'t
waste time and want me to respond quickly. I didn\'t get some canned
tomatoes because I didn\'t select a repacement quickly enough. But
now I know. They did deliver nearly 100 lbs of stuff for free with a
$5 charge for the ordering and a suggested $5 tip. Next time I\'ll
tip more, it\'s not so easy to find my place. It\'s pretty cool
getting stuff delivered in an hour!!!


That sounds like good service.

But I always find it strange that the USA is still stuck in a medieval
barter system for some parts of its economy - the \"tip\". If it costs
$10 dollars to handle the order and delivery, then they should charge
$10. If it costs more for big loads, or for more distant customers,
then they should either charge more to such customers, or have a
slightly larger charge for everyone so that it evens out.

When you sell electronics, you don\'t tell customers that the board costs
$100 and suggest a $20 dollar tip to the guy that soldered it.

Rare and occasional tips for exceptional service are fair enough. But
\"suggested\" tips, or tips that are virtually obligatory, are nothing
more than a way for an employer to cheat on taxes, underpay employees,
and skip on whatever payments an employer is supposed to make on behalf
of the employees. (I don\'t know what these are in the USA - typically
it is for things like pensions, social security contributions, etc.) It
means customers can\'t properly judge the real costs of services, and
feel pressured into paying more than the service is worth. It means the
system takes advantage of kind and generous people and rewards the
greedy and selfish. It means honest tax payers pay more, and the state
can do less, because you have a large unregulated black market of
cash-in-hand payments.

An honest and open economy works better for all parts, as far as I can see.
What\'s dishonest or secretive about a tip?

it\'s an excuse to advertise an artificially low price that no one pays


Unlike a lot of europe, the worker-guys actually get the tip. And it\'s
tax-free. It means \"thank you for the personal service\" and is an
effective incentive.

or an excuse for the employer to save on tax and salary and push the risk of
slow day onto the employees
Don\'t tip. It\'s your choice.

so the employer is sure to get paid and save on tax and salary, the employees just
have to take the chance on customers paying a tip...

If we have food delivered, the tip is pre-paid on the app. I chase the
guy down the street and give them another $5 or $10 in cash. They seem
to appreciate that. I suppose I am abusing them. I should stop.

is that how you pay your employees?

The gigantic-ness of our twice-a-year bonus does depend on how things
are going, which they all influence. Should I stop doing bonuses too?

Are you a government worker? I mean, \"worker.\"

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

tirsdag den 24. november 2020 kl. 22.43.17 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:27:02 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

tirsdag den 24. november 2020 kl. 18.47.10 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 09:20:30 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

tirsdag den 24. november 2020 kl. 16.36.23 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:48:13 +0100, David Brown
david...@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 24/11/2020 08:02, Rickster C wrote:
It\'s nice living on a lake. Pretty view, fun activities. It\'s a bit
remote though. They did put in a grocery store a while back, so no
more 20 mile drives to stock up. But it\'s just one store and if they
don\'t have what you like, tough. Then there is the pandemic where so
many people around here think it\'s fake and don\'t bother with masks,
although they do mostly respect distance.

There was no delivery of pretty much anything other than UPS, Fedex
and USPS. Until now. Instacart seems to be delivering to the area
now. It\'s the same supermarket that\'s nearby, but now it comes to me
instead of me going to it.

I had $100 order delivered tonight and they brought it in not much
more than an hour after sending an apology saying it would be over
two hours. They texted me about shortages and I had opportunities
to substitute. I know now to keep the phone handy because they don\'t
waste time and want me to respond quickly. I didn\'t get some canned
tomatoes because I didn\'t select a repacement quickly enough. But
now I know. They did deliver nearly 100 lbs of stuff for free with a
$5 charge for the ordering and a suggested $5 tip. Next time I\'ll
tip more, it\'s not so easy to find my place. It\'s pretty cool
getting stuff delivered in an hour!!!


That sounds like good service.

But I always find it strange that the USA is still stuck in a medieval
barter system for some parts of its economy - the \"tip\". If it costs
$10 dollars to handle the order and delivery, then they should charge
$10. If it costs more for big loads, or for more distant customers,
then they should either charge more to such customers, or have a
slightly larger charge for everyone so that it evens out.

When you sell electronics, you don\'t tell customers that the board costs
$100 and suggest a $20 dollar tip to the guy that soldered it.

Rare and occasional tips for exceptional service are fair enough. But
\"suggested\" tips, or tips that are virtually obligatory, are nothing
more than a way for an employer to cheat on taxes, underpay employees,
and skip on whatever payments an employer is supposed to make on behalf
of the employees. (I don\'t know what these are in the USA - typically
it is for things like pensions, social security contributions, etc.) It
means customers can\'t properly judge the real costs of services, and
feel pressured into paying more than the service is worth. It means the
system takes advantage of kind and generous people and rewards the
greedy and selfish. It means honest tax payers pay more, and the state
can do less, because you have a large unregulated black market of
cash-in-hand payments.

An honest and open economy works better for all parts, as far as I can see.
What\'s dishonest or secretive about a tip?

it\'s an excuse to advertise an artificially low price that no one pays


Unlike a lot of europe, the worker-guys actually get the tip. And it\'s
tax-free. It means \"thank you for the personal service\" and is an
effective incentive.

or an excuse for the employer to save on tax and salary and push the risk of
slow day onto the employees
Don\'t tip. It\'s your choice.

so the employer is sure to get paid and save on tax and salary, the employees just
have to take the chance on customers paying a tip...
If we have food delivered, the tip is pre-paid on the app. I chase the
guy down the street and give them another $5 or $10 in cash. They seem
to appreciate that. I suppose I am abusing them. I should stop.

not the same and you know that

is that how you pay your employees?
The gigantic-ness of our twice-a-year bonus does depend on how things
are going, which they all influence. Should I stop doing bonuses too?

not the same and you know that

Are you a government worker? I mean, \"worker.\"

no I never worked for the government unless you count paying taxes

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 22:08:10 +0100, David Brown
<david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 24/11/2020 17:13, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:


I asked some French waiters if they got the 15% \"service compris\" fee.
They laughed bitterly.


Why on earth would you think they got the 15% service charge as though
it was some kind of bonus or equivalent of a tip? The point of a
\"service charge\" is what the restaurant charges because they have to pay
the waiters to do their job. It is only noted on menus in case people
think the price of the food or drinks is higher than they expect, or so
that they know tips are not required or expected.

Where are the itemized prices for the food, the rent, the garbage
collection, and the owner\'s girlfriend?

Service compris is theft of tips by the restaurant owners, and guilt
reduction for the patrons.

The restaurant gets the 15% service charge. Then it pays the waiters -
just like it pays the cooks, the washer-ups, the manager, and everyone
else who works there.

More often, the owners keep it. It amounts to \"no tipping needed.\"

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 24/11/20 20:57, John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 16:48:40 +0000, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 24/11/20 16:13, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 07:49:25 -0800 (PST), Ed Lee
edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, November 24, 2020 at 7:36:23 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:48:13 +0100, David Brown
david...@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 24/11/2020 08:02, Rickster C wrote:
It\'s nice living on a lake. Pretty view, fun activities. It\'s a bit
remote though. They did put in a grocery store a while back, so no
more 20 mile drives to stock up. But it\'s just one store and if they
don\'t have what you like, tough. Then there is the pandemic where so
many people around here think it\'s fake and don\'t bother with masks,
although they do mostly respect distance.

There was no delivery of pretty much anything other than UPS, Fedex
and USPS. Until now. Instacart seems to be delivering to the area
now. It\'s the same supermarket that\'s nearby, but now it comes to me
instead of me going to it.

I had $100 order delivered tonight and they brought it in not much
more than an hour after sending an apology saying it would be over
two hours. They texted me about shortages and I had opportunities
to substitute. I know now to keep the phone handy because they don\'t
waste time and want me to respond quickly. I didn\'t get some canned
tomatoes because I didn\'t select a repacement quickly enough. But
now I know. They did deliver nearly 100 lbs of stuff for free with a
$5 charge for the ordering and a suggested $5 tip. Next time I\'ll
tip more, it\'s not so easy to find my place. It\'s pretty cool
getting stuff delivered in an hour!!!


That sounds like good service.

But I always find it strange that the USA is still stuck in a medieval
barter system for some parts of its economy - the \"tip\". If it costs
$10 dollars to handle the order and delivery, then they should charge
$10. If it costs more for big loads, or for more distant customers,
then they should either charge more to such customers, or have a
slightly larger charge for everyone so that it evens out.

When you sell electronics, you don\'t tell customers that the board costs
$100 and suggest a $20 dollar tip to the guy that soldered it.

Rare and occasional tips for exceptional service are fair enough. But
\"suggested\" tips, or tips that are virtually obligatory, are nothing
more than a way for an employer to cheat on taxes, underpay employees,
and skip on whatever payments an employer is supposed to make on behalf
of the employees. (I don\'t know what these are in the USA - typically
it is for things like pensions, social security contributions, etc.) It
means customers can\'t properly judge the real costs of services, and
feel pressured into paying more than the service is worth. It means the
system takes advantage of kind and generous people and rewards the
greedy and selfish. It means honest tax payers pay more, and the state
can do less, because you have a large unregulated black market of
cash-in-hand payments.

An honest and open economy works better for all parts, as far as I can see.
What\'s dishonest or secretive about a tip?

Unlike a lot of europe, the worker-guys actually get the tip. And it\'s
tax-free. It means \"thank you for the personal service\" and is an
effective incentive.

Technically, it should be reported as income, but it\'s an honor system whether they do or not.

It\'s socialism one-on-one.

Using money to enhance incentive is certainly capitalistic. I don\'t see the socialism aspect.

On a similar aspect, free charging in rest area is socialism, because it doesn\'t serve the gas drivers. Rest area itself is socialism, because it doesn\'t service bus riders. Highway itself is socialism, because it doesn\'t serve the walkers, and even bikers.


I asked some French waiters if they got the 15% \"service compris\" fee.
They laughed bitterly.

Here it is a mixed kettle of fish.

A couple of years ago there was a fair bit of publicity over
restaurants - mostly corporate chains - that didn\'t pass on
the entire \"tip\".

Many have recanted, and state that on the menus. You can make
an inference about the others.


Service compris is organized theft of tips. Leaving cash solves that
problem, and has tax advantages.

On all the occasions when I have asked serving staff which they
prefer, they have said they don\'t mind.

There might be several reasons for that, ranging from financial
incompetence through to their being \"downmarked\" during performance
evaluations due to \"too many\" not leaving /visible/ tips.

It is unfortunate that we only tip the people we come in contact with.
Some places pool and share tips with the cooks and such, but tip
pooling is legally complex in the US for some odd reason.

Here, tip pooling appears common in chain restaurants.

That\'s reasonable, when considering that my satisfaction
is due to serving staff, kitchen staff, cleaning staff etc


> Well, everything is legally complex.

And morally and ethically complex.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 24/11/20 23:19, John Larkin wrote:

Service compris is theft of tips by the restaurant owners, and guilt
reduction for the patrons.

Yup. Exploitation of the workers by those with capital.

But then \"underpaying\" staff is the same.

Paying a fair wage for a fair day\'s work is preferable.

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 23:49:45 +0000, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 24/11/20 23:19, John Larkin wrote:
Service compris is theft of tips by the restaurant owners, and guilt
reduction for the patrons.

Yup. Exploitation of the workers by those with capital.

Read up on life in the middle ages, when the workers weren\'t exploited
by greedy capitalists. Or more modern cases, Cuba and Venezuela, China
under Mao, USSR under Stalin. Paradise.

But then \"underpaying\" staff is the same.

Paying a fair wage for a fair day\'s work is preferable.

The economic reality is that few businesses (or farms) can afford to
pay more than the competitive wages, and those wages are determined by
the market for labor. More immigrants willing to work cheap drive down
the prevailing wages, and any business that wants to survive has to
pay that much.

Well, not \"any\" business, but most. Margins are slim for most
restaurants, and labor is more expensive than the food.

 

[David Brown]

On 25/11/2020 00:49, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 24/11/20 23:19, John Larkin wrote:
Service compris is theft of tips by the restaurant owners, and guilt
reduction for the patrons.

Yup. Exploitation of the workers by those with capital.

But then \"underpaying\" staff is the same.

Paying a fair wage for a fair day\'s work is preferable.

That\'s it, yes. If you have a system where the money staff take home
/depends/ on tips - however they are distributed - you do not have a
fair wage for fair day\'s work. You get different people doing the same
job, and getting different pay, or the same people doing the same job on
different days and getting different pay. Staff no longer have
predictability or reliability.

I guess it is an example of a more deep-seated cultural difference
between the USA and Scandinavian countries. (The UK is, as usual, kind
of in the middle - with Scotland trying desperately to be more like
Scandinavia, and England moving towards the USA or just down the drain,
whichever is least effort for them at the time.)

Here, when you get a job, you can rely on it. You know you have the job
- you have a contract, you have rights, you have guarantees about your
position, your responsibilities, and your pay. The employer can\'t take
that away without due notice (typically 3 months at least). You have
stability and predictability in life.

In parts of the USA (as always, laws vary) you can be a loyal,
hard-working employee for years and then get fired on the spot for
talking too loud when the boss has a hangover. And then you no longer
have an income, or health care, and shortly afterwards you have no home.

Working for tips is just bringing this random variance from something
that might happen at any time, to something that happens all the time.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 25/11/20 08:59, David Brown wrote:

(The UK is, as usual, kind
of in the middle - with Scotland trying desperately to be more like
Scandinavia, and England moving towards the USA or just down the drain,
whichever is least effort for them at the time.)

George Monbiot can be a twit at times, but he has an interesting
perspective in this article:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/24/brexit-capitalism

The key concepts are...

Where there is chaos, the government will multiply it.
Where people are pushed to the brink, it will shove them
over. Boris Johnson ignored the pleas of businesses and
politicians across the UK – especially in Northern
Ireland – to extend the Brexit transition process.
....
Broadly speaking, there are two dominant forms of capitalist
enterprise. The first could be described as housetrained
capitalism. It seeks an accommodation with the administrative
state, and benefits from stability, predictability and the
regulations that exclude dirtier and rougher competitors.
It can coexist with a tame and feeble form of democracy.

The second could be described as warlord capitalism. This
sees all restraints on accumulation – including taxes,
regulations and the public ownership of essential
services – as illegitimate. Nothing should be allowed to
stand in the way of profit-making. Its justifying ideology
was formulated by Friedrich Hayek in The Constitution of
Liberty and by Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged. These books
sweep away social complexity and other people’s interests.
They fetishise something they call “liberty”, which turns
out to mean total freedom for plutocrats, at society’s expense.
....
Brexit represents an astonishing opportunity for warlord
capitalism. It is a chance not just to rip up specific
rules, which it overtly aims to do, but also to tear down
the uneasy truce between capitalism and democracy under
which public protections in general are created and
enforced. In Steve Bannon’s words, it enables “the
deconstruction of the administrative state”. Chaos is
not a threat but an opportunity for money’s warlords.
Peter Hargreaves, the billionaire who donated £3.2m to
the Leave.EU campaign, explained that after Brexit: “We
will get out there and we will become incredibly successful
because we will be insecure again. And insecurity is fantastic.”

 

[server]

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:59:10 +0100, David Brown
<david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 25/11/2020 00:49, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/11/20 23:19, John Larkin wrote:
Service compris is theft of tips by the restaurant owners, and guilt
reduction for the patrons.

Yup. Exploitation of the workers by those with capital.

But then \"underpaying\" staff is the same.

Paying a fair wage for a fair day\'s work is preferable.


That\'s it, yes. If you have a system where the money staff take home
/depends/ on tips - however they are distributed - you do not have a
fair wage for fair day\'s work. You get different people doing the same
job, and getting different pay, or the same people doing the same job on
different days and getting different pay. Staff no longer have
predictability or reliability.

I guess it is an example of a more deep-seated cultural difference
between the USA and Scandinavian countries. (The UK is, as usual, kind
of in the middle - with Scotland trying desperately to be more like
Scandinavia, and England moving towards the USA or just down the drain,
whichever is least effort for them at the time.)

Here, when you get a job, you can rely on it. You know you have the job
- you have a contract, you have rights, you have guarantees about your
position, your responsibilities, and your pay. The employer can\'t take
that away without due notice (typically 3 months at least). You have
stability and predictability in life.

In parts of the USA (as always, laws vary) you can be a loyal,
hard-working employee for years and then get fired on the spot for
talking too loud when the boss has a hangover. And then you no longer
have an income, or health care, and shortly afterwards you have no home.

In California, an employer can fire an employee for any reason, or for
no reason, and escort them out. And an employee can walk out at any
instant and never come back. That\'s nicely symmetric.

I fire people by email. Less embarassing for everyone.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2020-11-25 16:57, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:59:10 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 25/11/2020 00:49, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/11/20 23:19, John Larkin wrote:
Service compris is theft of tips by the restaurant owners, and guilt
reduction for the patrons.

Yup. Exploitation of the workers by those with capital.

But then \"underpaying\" staff is the same.

Paying a fair wage for a fair day\'s work is preferable.


That\'s it, yes. If you have a system where the money staff take home
/depends/ on tips - however they are distributed - you do not have a
fair wage for fair day\'s work. You get different people doing the same
job, and getting different pay, or the same people doing the same job on
different days and getting different pay. Staff no longer have
predictability or reliability.

I guess it is an example of a more deep-seated cultural difference
between the USA and Scandinavian countries. (The UK is, as usual, kind
of in the middle - with Scotland trying desperately to be more like
Scandinavia, and England moving towards the USA or just down the drain,
whichever is least effort for them at the time.)

Here, when you get a job, you can rely on it. You know you have the job
- you have a contract, you have rights, you have guarantees about your
position, your responsibilities, and your pay. The employer can\'t take
that away without due notice (typically 3 months at least). You have
stability and predictability in life.

In parts of the USA (as always, laws vary) you can be a loyal,
hard-working employee for years and then get fired on the spot for
talking too loud when the boss has a hangover. And then you no longer
have an income, or health care, and shortly afterwards you have no home.


In California, an employer can fire an employee for any reason, or for
no reason, and escort them out. And an employee can walk out at any
instant and never come back. That\'s nicely symmetric.

I fire people by email. Less embarassing for everyone.

Like the ski resort full of girls hunting for husbands
and husbands hunting for girls, the situation is not as
symmetrical as it might seem.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 25/11/20 15:57, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:59:10 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 25/11/2020 00:49, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/11/20 23:19, John Larkin wrote:
Service compris is theft of tips by the restaurant owners, and guilt
reduction for the patrons.

Yup. Exploitation of the workers by those with capital.

But then \"underpaying\" staff is the same.

Paying a fair wage for a fair day\'s work is preferable.


That\'s it, yes. If you have a system where the money staff take home
/depends/ on tips - however they are distributed - you do not have a
fair wage for fair day\'s work. You get different people doing the same
job, and getting different pay, or the same people doing the same job on
different days and getting different pay. Staff no longer have
predictability or reliability.

I guess it is an example of a more deep-seated cultural difference
between the USA and Scandinavian countries. (The UK is, as usual, kind
of in the middle - with Scotland trying desperately to be more like
Scandinavia, and England moving towards the USA or just down the drain,
whichever is least effort for them at the time.)

Here, when you get a job, you can rely on it. You know you have the job
- you have a contract, you have rights, you have guarantees about your
position, your responsibilities, and your pay. The employer can\'t take
that away without due notice (typically 3 months at least). You have
stability and predictability in life.

In parts of the USA (as always, laws vary) you can be a loyal,
hard-working employee for years and then get fired on the spot for
talking too loud when the boss has a hangover. And then you no longer
have an income, or health care, and shortly afterwards you have no home.


In California, an employer can fire an employee for any reason, or for
no reason, and escort them out. And an employee can walk out at any
instant and never come back. That\'s nicely symmetric.

I fire people by email. Less embarassing for everyone.

If you are going to do something distasteful (even if
necessary), then have the guts to do it in personally,
and in person.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 25/11/20 16:31, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2020-11-25 16:57, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:59:10 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 25/11/2020 00:49, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/11/20 23:19, John Larkin wrote:
Service compris is theft of tips by the restaurant owners, and guilt
reduction for the patrons.

Yup. Exploitation of the workers by those with capital.

But then \"underpaying\" staff is the same.

Paying a fair wage for a fair day\'s work is preferable.


That\'s it, yes.  If you have a system where the money staff take home
/depends/ on tips - however they are distributed - you do not have a
fair wage for fair day\'s work.  You get different people doing the same
job, and getting different pay, or the same people doing the same job on
different days and getting different pay.  Staff no longer have
predictability or reliability.

I guess it is an example of a more deep-seated cultural difference
between the USA and Scandinavian countries.  (The UK is, as usual, kind
of in the middle - with Scotland trying desperately to be more like
Scandinavia, and England moving towards the USA or just down the drain,
whichever is least effort for them at the time.)

Here, when you get a job, you can rely on it.  You know you have the job
- you have a contract, you have rights, you have guarantees about your
position, your responsibilities, and your pay.  The employer can\'t take
that away without due notice (typically 3 months at least).  You have
stability and predictability in life.

In parts of the USA (as always, laws vary) you can be a loyal,
hard-working employee for years and then get fired on the spot for
talking too loud when the boss has a hangover.  And then you no longer
have an income, or health care, and shortly afterwards you have no home.


In California, an employer can fire an employee for any reason, or for
no reason, and escort them out. And an employee can walk out at any
instant and never come back. That\'s nicely symmetric.

I fire people by email. Less embarassing for everyone.




Like the ski resort full of girls hunting for husbands
and husbands hunting for girls, the situation is not as
symmetrical as it might seem.

Precisely.

It would be a little more symmetrical if the employee
\"fired\" all his employers simultaneously. and the employer
fired all his employees simultaneously.

 

[server]

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 17:31:08 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 2020-11-25 16:57, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:59:10 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 25/11/2020 00:49, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/11/20 23:19, John Larkin wrote:
Service compris is theft of tips by the restaurant owners, and guilt
reduction for the patrons.

Yup. Exploitation of the workers by those with capital.

But then \"underpaying\" staff is the same.

Paying a fair wage for a fair day\'s work is preferable.


That\'s it, yes. If you have a system where the money staff take home
/depends/ on tips - however they are distributed - you do not have a
fair wage for fair day\'s work. You get different people doing the same
job, and getting different pay, or the same people doing the same job on
different days and getting different pay. Staff no longer have
predictability or reliability.

I guess it is an example of a more deep-seated cultural difference
between the USA and Scandinavian countries. (The UK is, as usual, kind
of in the middle - with Scotland trying desperately to be more like
Scandinavia, and England moving towards the USA or just down the drain,
whichever is least effort for them at the time.)

Here, when you get a job, you can rely on it. You know you have the job
- you have a contract, you have rights, you have guarantees about your
position, your responsibilities, and your pay. The employer can\'t take
that away without due notice (typically 3 months at least). You have
stability and predictability in life.

In parts of the USA (as always, laws vary) you can be a loyal,
hard-working employee for years and then get fired on the spot for
talking too loud when the boss has a hangover. And then you no longer
have an income, or health care, and shortly afterwards you have no home.


In California, an employer can fire an employee for any reason, or for
no reason, and escort them out. And an employee can walk out at any
instant and never come back. That\'s nicely symmetric.

I fire people by email. Less embarassing for everyone.




Like the ski resort full of girls hunting for husbands
and husbands hunting for girls, the situation is not as
symmetrical as it might seem.

Jeroen Belleman

Sugar Bowl opens Friday, and we\'re driving up this morning with the
turkey and pies and stuff.

My experience with the girl-boy thing in ski resorts is that it\'s
pretty symmetric. We do come equipped with biology.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[server]

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:36:34 +0000, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 25/11/20 15:57, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:59:10 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 25/11/2020 00:49, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/11/20 23:19, John Larkin wrote:
Service compris is theft of tips by the restaurant owners, and guilt
reduction for the patrons.

Yup. Exploitation of the workers by those with capital.

But then \"underpaying\" staff is the same.

Paying a fair wage for a fair day\'s work is preferable.


That\'s it, yes. If you have a system where the money staff take home
/depends/ on tips - however they are distributed - you do not have a
fair wage for fair day\'s work. You get different people doing the same
job, and getting different pay, or the same people doing the same job on
different days and getting different pay. Staff no longer have
predictability or reliability.

I guess it is an example of a more deep-seated cultural difference
between the USA and Scandinavian countries. (The UK is, as usual, kind
of in the middle - with Scotland trying desperately to be more like
Scandinavia, and England moving towards the USA or just down the drain,
whichever is least effort for them at the time.)

Here, when you get a job, you can rely on it. You know you have the job
- you have a contract, you have rights, you have guarantees about your
position, your responsibilities, and your pay. The employer can\'t take
that away without due notice (typically 3 months at least). You have
stability and predictability in life.

In parts of the USA (as always, laws vary) you can be a loyal,
hard-working employee for years and then get fired on the spot for
talking too loud when the boss has a hangover. And then you no longer
have an income, or health care, and shortly afterwards you have no home.


In California, an employer can fire an employee for any reason, or for
no reason, and escort them out. And an employee can walk out at any
instant and never come back. That\'s nicely symmetric.

I fire people by email. Less embarassing for everyone.

If you are going to do something distasteful (even if
necessary), then have the guts to do it in personally,
and in person.

It\'s not a matter of guts; writing the email isn\'t easy. But it\'s more
comfortable for all parties if it\'s done by email. Not always, but
usually.

I think I\'ve personally fired two people in the last 20 years, so
there\'s not much experimental data.

We actually call dismissals \"layoff\" not \"fire\" because with a layoff
they get unemployment compensation without question. We usually give
them three months pay and health care too.

If I hire a dumb kid and spend years paying kid and teaching kid how
to be a good engineer, and then let them go, I should get a medal, not
a penalty. Kid can take the skills to a better job if he wants.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 25/11/20 16:54, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:36:34 +0000, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 25/11/20 15:57, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:59:10 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 25/11/2020 00:49, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/11/20 23:19, John Larkin wrote:
Service compris is theft of tips by the restaurant owners, and guilt
reduction for the patrons.

Yup. Exploitation of the workers by those with capital.

But then \"underpaying\" staff is the same.

Paying a fair wage for a fair day\'s work is preferable.


That\'s it, yes. If you have a system where the money staff take home
/depends/ on tips - however they are distributed - you do not have a
fair wage for fair day\'s work. You get different people doing the same
job, and getting different pay, or the same people doing the same job on
different days and getting different pay. Staff no longer have
predictability or reliability.

I guess it is an example of a more deep-seated cultural difference
between the USA and Scandinavian countries. (The UK is, as usual, kind
of in the middle - with Scotland trying desperately to be more like
Scandinavia, and England moving towards the USA or just down the drain,
whichever is least effort for them at the time.)

Here, when you get a job, you can rely on it. You know you have the job
- you have a contract, you have rights, you have guarantees about your
position, your responsibilities, and your pay. The employer can\'t take
that away without due notice (typically 3 months at least). You have
stability and predictability in life.

In parts of the USA (as always, laws vary) you can be a loyal,
hard-working employee for years and then get fired on the spot for
talking too loud when the boss has a hangover. And then you no longer
have an income, or health care, and shortly afterwards you have no home.


In California, an employer can fire an employee for any reason, or for
no reason, and escort them out. And an employee can walk out at any
instant and never come back. That\'s nicely symmetric.

I fire people by email. Less embarassing for everyone.

If you are going to do something distasteful (even if
necessary), then have the guts to do it in personally,
and in person.

It\'s not a matter of guts; writing the email isn\'t easy. But it\'s more
comfortable for all parties if it\'s done by email. Not always, but
usually.

Unpleasant situations are never going to be comfortable.
That\'s where the \"guts\" comes in.

I think I\'ve personally fired two people in the last 20 years, so
there\'s not much experimental data.

Which rather conflicts with your previous paragraph!

If I hire a dumb kid and spend years paying kid and teaching kid how
to be a good engineer, and then let them go, I should get a medal, not
a penalty. Kid can take the skills to a better job if he wants.

Agreed.

But that needn\'t be spoiled by lack of guts.

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, November 25, 2020 at 3:59:20 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:

On 25/11/2020 00:49, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/11/20 23:19, John Larkin wrote:
Service compris is theft of tips by the restaurant owners, and guilt
reduction for the patrons.

Yup. Exploitation of the workers by those with capital.

But then \"underpaying\" staff is the same.

Paying a fair wage for a fair day\'s work is preferable.

That\'s it, yes. If you have a system where the money staff take home
/depends/ on tips - however they are distributed - you do not have a
fair wage for fair day\'s work. You get different people doing the same
job, and getting different pay, or the same people doing the same job on
different days and getting different pay. Staff no longer have
predictability or reliability.

I guess it is an example of a more deep-seated cultural difference
between the USA and Scandinavian countries. (The UK is, as usual, kind
of in the middle - with Scotland trying desperately to be more like
Scandinavia, and England moving towards the USA or just down the drain,
whichever is least effort for them at the time.)

Here, when you get a job, you can rely on it. You know you have the job
- you have a contract, you have rights, you have guarantees about your
position, your responsibilities, and your pay. The employer can\'t take
that away without due notice (typically 3 months at least). You have
stability and predictability in life.

In parts of the USA (as always, laws vary) you can be a loyal,
hard-working employee for years and then get fired on the spot for
talking too loud when the boss has a hangover. And then you no longer
have an income, or health care, and shortly afterwards you have no home.

Working for tips is just bringing this random variance from something
that might happen at any time, to something that happens all the time.

As much David likes to think there is something remotely like uniformity in jobs in the US he ignores the fact that working for tips in a restaurant is very different from working for a major corporation. Employees have rights in the US, but we acknowledge the difference in the level of responsibility IBM has regarding their employees and Joe\'s Eats has to their waitresses.

Ignoring that difference makes any argument pointless.

They guy who delivered my groceries is providing his own car and likely is barely making enough money to get by. On the other hand, if someone else opens a competing business with better pay and/or benefits, he can and will jump jobs in a heartbeat. That\'s the reality. Everyone is looking out for themselves.

I\'m glad I tipped because my delivery was not the five minute quickie they usually deliver. I would be interested in knowing where and how the money flows in this arrangement. I\'ve always heard there is very low markup in much of the inventory of grocery stores. How much do the stores pay to be part of this arrangement?

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[David Brown]

On 25/11/2020 18:43, Brent Locher wrote:

On Wednesday, November 25, 2020 at 12:37:11 PM UTC-5, David Brown
wrote:
On 25/11/2020 17:35, Tom Gardner wrote:

Shame the UK civil service has been marginalised, as exemplified
by \"don\'t trust experts\".

That\'s another thing I never understood. \"Experts\" are people who
know a lot about a particular topic. As long as you are interested
in their topic, experts are /exactly/ the people you should trust -
they are the ones that know more about it than anyone else. But
some people seem to view ignorance as a virtue.

I like experts that go down in flames when their work goes down in
flames....The old \"captain goes down with his ship\" Today we have
all kind of experts who espouse all kind of crap and suffer no
penalty when they are wrong.

If someone is not willing to embrace new knowledge in their field, they
are not an expert. A good scientist is /happy/ when someone proves them
wrong. (Well, scientists are usually human too, and it might take some
time for them to realise that they should be happy!) Of course experts
will want something substantial to justify it when someone says they are
wrong - not just some made-up \"alternative fact\", or wild claims from a
non-expert (in that field).

A real expert never \"goes down in flames\" - nor does their work. They
examine the new evidence with a sceptical eye, and if they are convinced
it is correct, they take the new knowledge on board.

I was told that when building the old cathedrals that the guy who
directed all the labor and came in as an expert had to stand under
the arch when the supports were pulled out....yeah, I do love those
kind of experts.

 

[David Brown]

On 25/11/2020 19:07, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, November 25, 2020 at 3:59:20 AM UTC-5, David Brown
wrote:
On 25/11/2020 00:49, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/11/20 23:19, John Larkin wrote:
Service compris is theft of tips by the restaurant owners, and
guilt reduction for the patrons.

Yup. Exploitation of the workers by those with capital.

But then \"underpaying\" staff is the same.

Paying a fair wage for a fair day\'s work is preferable.

That\'s it, yes. If you have a system where the money staff take
home /depends/ on tips - however they are distributed - you do not
have a fair wage for fair day\'s work. You get different people
doing the same job, and getting different pay, or the same people
doing the same job on different days and getting different pay.
Staff no longer have predictability or reliability.

I guess it is an example of a more deep-seated cultural difference
between the USA and Scandinavian countries. (The UK is, as usual,
kind of in the middle - with Scotland trying desperately to be more
like Scandinavia, and England moving towards the USA or just down
the drain, whichever is least effort for them at the time.)

Here, when you get a job, you can rely on it. You know you have the
job - you have a contract, you have rights, you have guarantees
about your position, your responsibilities, and your pay. The
employer can\'t take that away without due notice (typically 3
months at least). You have stability and predictability in life.

In parts of the USA (as always, laws vary) you can be a loyal,
hard-working employee for years and then get fired on the spot for
talking too loud when the boss has a hangover. And then you no
longer have an income, or health care, and shortly afterwards you
have no home.

Working for tips is just bringing this random variance from
something that might happen at any time, to something that happens
all the time.

As much David likes to think there is something remotely like
uniformity in jobs in the US

Did you miss the part where I said explicitly \"as always, laws vary\" ?

he ignores the fact that working for
tips in a restaurant is very different from working for a major
corporation. Employees have rights in the US, but we acknowledge the
difference in the level of responsibility IBM has regarding their
employees and Joe\'s Eats has to their waitresses.

Ignoring that difference makes any argument pointless.

The jobs are different, and the responsibilities are different. Where
European (especially Scandinavian) and American philosophies diverge is
that we think the /people/ are the same, with the same rights,
responsibilities, and needs. Why should someone have job security just
because they are highly qualified? (Getting paid more, of course, is
entirely reasonable.) You might have written that \"all men are created
equal\" in your declaration of independence - modern Europe, especially
northern Europe, is a lot closer to making it a reality. (And we
include women there too.)

They guy who delivered my groceries is providing his own car and
likely is barely making enough money to get by.

I am in no way blaming the delivery guy, or you, for the situation. I\'m
not even blaming the employer who pays him so little and still expects
him to provide his own transport - they have to compete too. I\'m saying
the system is bad - bad for everyone. But like many other things wrong
in the USA (or other things wrong in other countries - I claim
Scandinavian countries do things better, not that they are close to
perfect), it\'s very hard to see how to fix things. Understanding the
problem, and how other places do things better, is merely the first step.

On the other hand,
if someone else opens a competing business with better pay and/or
benefits, he can and will jump jobs in a heartbeat. That\'s the
reality. Everyone is looking out for themselves.

I\'m glad I tipped because my delivery was not the five minute quickie
they usually deliver. I would be interested in knowing where and how
the money flows in this arrangement. I\'ve always heard there is very
low markup in much of the inventory of grocery stores. How much do
the stores pay to be part of this arrangement?

I have no idea. But I also have heard that grocery shops have low
markup on a lot of their goods. Some things have more - you get a clue
to that by seeing what they place near the checkout to tempt you for
quick, unplanned purchases. Another thing you see is cheap \"store
brand\" goods with plain packaging next to more expensive versions with a
fancier brand name and packaging, and a significantly higher price.
Often the two items are made by the same supplier with only marginal
difference in reality, but big differences in the markup for both the
producer and the store.