Grid-Battery "Hybrid" Tractors

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:53:26 -0700, Rob Dekker wrote:


But for tractors, the low-cost, high energy density molten salt batteries (Zebra's, sodium/sulfur etc) are excellent :
Low cost? I want a url to a price sheet.
What is the energy density?
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:44:18 -0700, Bret Cahill wrote:

handle them all.
Again, why wouldn't this also apply to series hybrids like the Volt?
It does, but the suckers just haven't realised it.
In any case, power demands of a tractor are more like a prime mover than
a body mover(car).
 
How does this change the cost/number of cycles?
Does the number of cycles/battery decrease with frequency?
It isn't my job in life to educate the ignorant. Please go learn some
basics.
 
The small cell phone or lap top batteries wired in parallel would
charge up in a couple of minutes.

10 recharges during a work-day

I was planning for 6 - 10 an hour.

Every time the tractor makes it across the field or back it recharges.

Laptop batteries are typically good for about 1000 charges
before becoming seriously degraded. �Your hypothetical
tractor would need a fresh set of batteries about every
2 weeks. �You haven't taken this major cost into account.

How would this cost be any different than the plug in hybrid or EV
like the Tesla?

Because a car is only charged once or twice a day.

Here, I'll try again:

How does this change the cost/number of cycles?

Because the tremendous cost of the batteries
must be factored into the cost.
Again, how does this change the cost/number of cycles?

. . .

If we assume an 8-hour shift, your tractor
is being recharged 48-80 times a day.

How does this change the cost/number of cycles?

Because unlike a car, you are beating on the
batteries at a far higher rate -- about two orders
of magnitude higher. ďż˝
Does the number of cycles/battery decrease with frequency?


Bret Cahill
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:39:41 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

This should be common knowledge.

Bret Cahill

Show us a link to a datasheet for such a battery.

Meanwhile, consider a AA size battery with, say, a 2 AH capacity.
Consider charging it in one minute.

See the problem?

No, at least nothing compared to the problem of paying $30 billion a
year -- soon to be $100 billion/yr -- for diesel used in agriculture.

---
Avoiding the issue by changing the subject, are we???

The OP issue is the tens of billions a year unnecessarily wasted on
diesel for agriculture.
---
Hardly 'wasted', since it's used to provide us and many other people
in the world with food.

And hardly 'unnecessarily', since there is no alternative at this
time. Your suggestion, no matter how vociferously you defend it is
unworkable and we all have to eat, so the tractors will continue to
run on diesel, whether you like it or not.
---

That's the context, the _only_ reason for electrification of farms.
---
If the time comes when it'll be economically feasible to farm
electrically, then it'll happen.

Your lunatic raving, BTW, will really have no effect on when that
happens, and if you seriously want to see change then you should get
to work figuring out how to make it happen instead of just flapping
your jaws spewing idiocy.
---

Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stoopid?
---
Neither.

JF
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:44:16 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

And we haven't gotten to the favorable torque/rpm curve of electric
motors which allows a much smaller hp motor.

Didn't somebody already invent gears?

You _want_ to go Rube Goldberg?

If your goal is to cost farmers more money then that explains a lot.
---
So you don't even understand the function of a transmission?

_That_ explains a lot.

JF
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:47:24 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

This should be common knowledge.

Bret Cahill

Show us a link to a datasheet for such a battery.

Meanwhile, consider a AA size battery with, say, a 2 AH capacity.
Consider charging it in one minute.

See the problem?

No, at least nothing compared to the problem of paying $30 billion a
year -- soon to be $100 billion/yr -- for diesel used in agriculture.

---
Avoiding the issue by changing the subject, are we???

The Issue has _always been_ liquid fuel costs.

---
Sorry, Charlie, nice try but the issue at the moment, brought up by
JL, is whether you can appreciate the economics of battery charging.

Still trying to dodge the OP issue, the cost of diesel fuel?
---
Nope, the cost of diesel fuel is what it is and your lunatic raving
isn't going to change it.

My point was and is that your hare-brained electric tractor scheme is
impractical and economically unviable at this time.
---

Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stupid in real life?
---
Neither.

JF
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:14:04 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

To win this debate you'll need to show how diesel power is cheaper
than charging batteries and running an electic motor off them.

You cannot so you will try to dodge the issue of diesel costs
altogether.
---
Since I've shown that your harebrained scheme is impractical and
unworkable and that diesel is here and working 24-7-365, no matter
what its cost, I've already won.

If you want to prove that your system is viable, and superior to
diesel, then you'll need to show why it's cheaper than diesel overall,
not just in the cost of fuel.

But you can't do that, so all you do is keep trying to muddy the
waters in order to keep from looking like a fool.

Guess what? It's not working.

JF
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:22:36 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

There are dozens of farm service companies in agricultural areas
because the reality is no farmer needs the same equipment 24/7/52.

Lol, the problem with this idea is that farmers producing the same crop
generally all do the same job at the same time.

Another argument for grid battery tractors. For longer higher power
applications, all you really need to rent _or_ buy is another battery
in parallel.

There is just no situation where diesel is more cost effective than
grid battery.

Not in energy costs, not in labor costs, not in capital costs, not in
maintenance costs.
---
Got some numbers?

JF
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:22:36 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

There are dozens of farm service companies in agricultural areas
because the reality is no farmer needs the same equipment 24/7/52.

Lol, the problem with this idea is that farmers producing the same crop
generally all do the same job at the same time.

Another argument for grid battery tractors. For longer higher power
applications, all you really need to rent _or_ buy is another battery
in parallel.

There is just no situation where diesel is more cost effective than
grid battery.

Not in energy costs, not in labor costs, not in capital costs, not in
maintenance costs.
---
Then get off your lazy ass and build something to prove it.

JF
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:39:59 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:


Did you miss the posts about when a tractor goes 0.5 MPH?

Did you miss the response?
---
Up to your snip tricks again, huh?
---

That the more diesel the tractor burns the more cost effective it is
to switch to battery-grid electric tractors?
---
Got some numbers?

Oh, and by the way, no matter what you come up with, battery-grid is
impractical for quantitative reasons I've posted earlier.
---

Are you just acting dumb or are you really this dumb in real life?
---
It's just an act so that you can try to keep up.

JF
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:16:08 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:


I have yet to hear even one poster claim any knowledge of anyone in
the battery industry or academia or any other authority who will not
agree that battery technology is still improving fairly rapidly,
energy density as well as recharge times.
---
Ignoratio elenchi.

The point, dear boy, is not whether technology will advance, it will.

However, that fact can scarcely be used to support your position,
since the real point is that from the point of view of _today's_
technology your harebrained scheme is impractical, regardless of the
cost of diesel fuel.

If you think it isn't, get yourself a business plan together and
approach some venture capitalists with it.

I'd be willing to bet that even those who are loose with their money
wouldn't be eager to help you tilt at windmills.

JF
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:40:52 -0700, "Rob Dekker" <rob@verific.com>
wrote:

"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message news:1o4h84tdn70gfvqvjbmlr66e9r242qse35@4ax.com...
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:40:20 +1000, terryc
newssixspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:23:06 -0500, John Fields wrote:


notie this paragraph after I flicked the other answer....

Now, when you consider that that electricity has to come from
_somewhere_ and that is has to be brought into the field using
conductors of finite resistance, then the problem becomes even more
severe.

So instead of 415V supply, you just tap the 11Kv lines instead.

---
How would you do that?

You throw a wire over it. Just make sure to wear rubber gloves :eek:)
---
;)

JF
 
Mark Thorson wrote:
Bret Cahill wrote:
Few things are more entertaining than boiler explosions.

Firetube boilers don't explode. Jay Leno explains it:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/1302916.html
Here we go again:

================================================
29. after you get the steam up keep it hot with on board electric power
aka alternator and heat coils
================================================

It appears Mr. Leno has been getting very bad advice.


mike

--
Due to the insane amount of spam and garbage,
this filter blocks all postings with a Gmail,
Google Mail, Google Groups or HOTMAIL address.
It also filters everything from a .cn server.

http://improve-usenet.org/
 
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:57:23 +1000, terryc
<newssixspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:36:42 -0500, John Fields wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:40:20 +1000, terryc
newssixspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:23:06 -0500, John Fields wrote:


notie this paragraph after I flicked the other answer....

Now, when you consider that that electricity has to come from
_somewhere_ and that is has to be brought into the field using
conductors of finite resistance, then the problem becomes even more
severe.

So instead of 415V supply, you just tap the 11Kv lines instead.

---
How would you do that?

Sigh. Basics of electrical pwer distribution; distrubte in as high a
voltage as you can to reduce current being moved,then transform down for
local requirements.> AFAIK, 11Kv is the next step up from 415V supply.
---
Very good!

You, at least, seem know what you're talking about. :)

JF
 
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:55:08 +1000, terryc
<newssixspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:20:50 -0500, John Fields wrote:

It can go higher for SLAs, according to:

http://www.powerstream.com/SLA.htm

Well, I guess I won't be ever buying their batteries then.
---
I can't imagine why not.

What do find wrong with them?

JF
 
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:13:42 -0500, John Fields wrote:

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:55:08 +1000, terryc
newssixspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:20:50 -0500, John Fields wrote:

It can go higher for SLAs, according to:

http://www.powerstream.com/SLA.htm

Well, I guess I won't be ever buying their batteries then.

---
I can't imagine why not.

What do find wrong with them?
Requiring 140% of C put back in to get C back out.


 
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 00:48:24 +1000, terryc
<newssixspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:13:42 -0500, John Fields wrote:

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:55:08 +1000, terryc
newssixspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:20:50 -0500, John Fields wrote:

It can go higher for SLAs, according to:

http://www.powerstream.com/SLA.htm

Well, I guess I won't be ever buying their batteries then.

---
I can't imagine why not.

What do find wrong with them?

Requiring 140% of C put back in to get C back out.
---
That's typical for _any_ flooded lead-acid battery, while much higher
efficiencies can be enjoyed by using SLAs. Including theirs, I
suppose.

From their site, under BASICS:

"The coulometric charging efficiency of flooded lead acid batteries is
typically 70%, meaning that you must put 142 amp hours into the
battery for every 100 amp hours you get out. This varies somewhat
depending on the temperature, speed of charge, and battery type.

Sealed lead acid batteries are higher in charge efficiency, depending
on the bulk charge voltage it can be higher than 95%."

JF
 
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:41:11 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:44:16 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

And we haven't gotten to the favorable torque/rpm curve of electric
motors which allows a much smaller hp motor.

Didn't somebody already invent gears?

You _want_ to go Rube Goldberg?

If your goal is to cost farmers more money then that explains a lot.

---
So you don't even understand the function of a transmission?

_That_ explains a lot.

JF
Tee-hee, imagine an electric motor coupled directly to the drive
wheels of a tractor.

John
 
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:48:21 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:41:11 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:44:16 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

And we haven't gotten to the favorable torque/rpm curve of electric
motors which allows a much smaller hp motor.

Didn't somebody already invent gears?

You _want_ to go Rube Goldberg?

If your goal is to cost farmers more money then that explains a lot.

---
So you don't even understand the function of a transmission?

_That_ explains a lot.

JF

Tee-hee, imagine an electric motor coupled directly to the drive
wheels of a tractor.
---
Not to add fuel to Brat's fire, but... Big-ass PWM controller?

JF
 

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor

Back
Top