Grid-Battery "Hybrid" Tractors

[John Fields]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:33:10 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.

Batteries should be specially designed for fast charge/discharge, but it's not at all impossible.
You just loose some of the energy density if you increase the power density.
Here is one where they did that :

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_energy_systems.html

Recharges in a few minutes.
35 kWh battery packs are in production.

Give us a break.

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_applications.html

This is yet another nanotech company that will change the world in a
dozen ways, including the mandatory cure of various diseases.

They lost $32M last year on $9M in sales. Net shareholder equity is
-57 million.

A lot of early automobile companies went belly up. ?It this an
argument that the automobile was never economically feasible?

First you wanted a fast charging battery. ? We gave it to you and now
you seem to want a fast charging battery from a well managed company.

What's next? ?A fast charging battery from a well managed company run
by naked women?

How about a fast-charging battery that's in actual production?

Go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy a lithium ion battery pack.

---
How much do they cost,

Whatever happened to rugged induhvidualism? Visit www.homedepot.com
and look it up.

how many are you going to need for your 400
horsepower tractor,

Much less on a unit power basis than any plug in hybrid. The tractor
never needs to go more than a mile or, using two wires, a half mile
between charges.

and how long are they going to last until they can
no longer be charged?

The same as any other application, i. e., plug in hybrids.

And what are you going to do about a charger?

The tractor will have a trolly pole which will contact the wire after
each pass.

Instead of paying $110/hr for diesel you pay an illegal $12/hr to sit
in the tractor while it pauses to recharge.

And how are you going to get power to the field and not take
horrendous losses?

_What_ "horrendous losses?"

You need to show that there's something fundamentally different going
on with grid - battery tractors than EVs or plug in hybrids.

---
Blah, blah, blah...

You're talking about supplying 400 horsepower _from batteries_ for an
extended period of time.

Do the math, if you can, and then post what you find. It'll be
interesting.

JF

 

On Jul 21, 10:45�pm, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill

BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:
Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

This should be common knowledge.

Bret Cahill

Show us a link to a datasheet for such a battery.

Meanwhile, consider a AA size battery with, say, a 2 AH capacity.
Consider charging it in one minute.

See the problem?

No, at least nothing compared to the problem of paying $30 billion a
year -- soon to be $100 billion/yr -- for diesel used in agriculture.


Bret Cahill

 

[John Fields]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:57:49 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

---
And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.

The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done. ?

---
Really?

Your 400 horsepower tractor, working for an hour,

It takes a hour to get across a field?

What farming operation requires 400 hp to go 0.5 mph?

---
Hey, its _your_ number, genius...
---

. . .

Any argument for plug in hybrids is an *a fortiori* argument for the
grid-battery "hybrid" tractor.

Poppycock.

Now that shows some thought.

---
Junk in, Junk out.

JF

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

BretCahill@peoplepc.com wrote:

It takes a hour to get across a field?

What farming operation requires 400 hp to go 0.5 mph?

See, you don't know anything about farming. I'll bet you thought
they plow at 60 MPH.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm

Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming'
sheep.

 

Few things are more entertaining than boiler explosions.

Which are entirely preventable by a regular schedule
of hydrostatic testing. ďż˝

So are nuclear accidents. The problem in the real world is things go
wrong.

Which will piss off farmers even more than screwing around with a
trolly wire after every pass.

Hardly.  A hydrostatic test is easy to do,
and they don't have to be done very often.

A steam tractor would have a much higher initial cost and require much
more maintence and training necessary than even an ICE. Unless you
had a steam - electric hybrid the load couldn't be changed rapidly.
Either you waste steam or time. Algae diesel is more promising.


Bret Cahill

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

John Fields wrote:

Blah, blah, blah...

You're talking about supplying 400 horsepower _from batteries_ for an
extended period of time.

Do the math, if you can, and then post what you find. It'll be
interesting.

I'd like to see him connect the charger to that mythical battery and
see how wide the debris field is, with me a mile or more away, while he
plays with his ACME battery.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm

Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming'
sheep.

 

Few things are more entertaining than boiler explosions.

Firetube boilers don't explode. �Jay Leno explains it:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/1302916.html

"Still, it's easy to see why steam failed. When you bought a Doble,
you got a list of things your chauffeur was supposed to do every week.
Nobody would stand for weekly maintenance these days. Plus, you've got
to carry steam oil, water and gasoline."

Just put the #$%@! electric motor into the&^%#@! tractor.


Bret Cahill

 

Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.

Batteries should be specially designed for fast charge/discharge, but it's not at all impossible.
You just loose some of the energy density if you increase the power density.
Here is one where they did that :

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_energy_systems.html

Recharges in a few minutes.
35 kWh battery packs are in production.

Give us a break.

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_applications.html

This is yet another nanotech company that will change the world in a
dozen ways, including the mandatory cure of various diseases.

They lost $32M last year on $9M in sales. Net shareholder equity is
-57 million.

A lot of early automobile companies went belly up. ?It this an
argument that the automobile was never economically feasible?

First you wanted a fast charging battery. ? We gave it to you and now
you seem to want a fast charging battery from a well managed company.

What's next? ?A fast charging battery from a well managed company run
by naked women?

How about a fast-charging battery that's in actual production?

Go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy a lithium ion battery pack.

---
How much do they cost,

Whatever happened to rugged induhvidualism? Visit www.homedepot.com
and look it up.

how many are you going to need for your 400
horsepower tractor,

Much less on a unit power basis than any plug in hybrid. The tractor
never needs to go more than a mile or, using two wires, a half mile
between charges.

and how long are they going to last until they can
no longer be charged?

The same as any other application, i. e., plug in hybrids.

And what are you going to do about a charger?

The tractor will have a trolly pole which will contact the wire after
each pass.

Instead of paying $110/hr for diesel you pay an illegal $12/hr to sit
in the tractor while it pauses to recharge.

And how are you going to get power to the field and not take
horrendous losses?

_What_ "horrendous losses?"

You need to show that there's something fundamentally different going
on with grid - battery tractors than EVs or plug in hybrids.


Bret Cahill

 

A steam tractor would have a much higher initial cost and require much
more maintence and training necessary than even an ICE. �Unless you
had a steam - electric hybrid the load couldn't be changed rapidly.
Either you waste steam or time. �Algae diesel is more promising..

You don't know what you're talking about.
Steam is mechanically far simpler than ICE.

But far more complicated, more expensive, required more maintenance
and is less efficient than than an electic motor powered by bio mass
burned at a power plant.

It doesn't need a clutch or transmission
because a steam engine has a nearly flat
torque/RPM curve, unlike an ICE.

Neither do motors.

You have to jump through all sorts of hoops
to make an ICE drive a variable load, like
a transmission, spark advance mechanism,
high-octane fuels, anti-knock additives, etc.
Steam can use almost any fuel that burns,
even wood, and it can burn much more cleanly.
It produces no oxides of nitrogen, and a
properly adjusted flame produces almost no CO.

The key goal is to avoid paying the $30 billion a year -- soon to be
$100 billion/yr -- in agriculture's liquid fuel costs.

Start burning wood or bio mass and you will be cleaning creasote,
soot, ash, etc., from hundreds of feet of fire tube every day.

There's no way around this problem in closed cycle.

Wood chips can be cooked for a gas that can be burned in ICE but
generally speaking bio mass needs to be burned at a stationary power
plant, not in vehicles.


Bret Cahill

 

Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

---
And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.

The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done. ďż˝

---
Really?

Your 400 horsepower tractor, working for an hour,

It takes a hour to get across a field?

What farming operation requires 400 hp to go 0.5 mph?

. . .

Any argument for plug in hybrids is an *a fortiori* argument for the
grid-battery "hybrid" tractor.

Poppycock.

Now that shows some thought.


Bret Cahill

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:11:24 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:35:57 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

On Jul 21, 10:45?pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill

BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:
Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

This should be common knowledge.

Bret Cahill

Show us a link to a datasheet for such a battery.

Meanwhile, consider a AA size battery with, say, a 2 AH capacity.
Consider charging it in one minute.

See the problem?

No, at least nothing compared to the problem of paying $30 billion a
year -- soon to be $100 billion/yr -- for diesel used in agriculture.

---
Avoiding the issue by changing the subject, are we???

And here just a couple of post ago you mentioned that you play by the
honor system.

Well, now that we see that you're also a liar let me give you a little
clue as to how some of this here elecktrickle stuff works:

If a battery with a capacity of 2 AH (120 ampere-minutes) needs to be
recharged in two minutes, then you've got to fill it back up with the
same amount of electricity, but you've only got 2 minutes to do it in,
so you've got to pump it in faster than it came out. 60 times faster,
in fact, so that means instead of 2 amperes going in you've got to
force 120 amperes into that poor little AA battery. BIG problem!

Actually, because of losses, you'd have to pump more than that into it
to fully charge it and, just as an aside, the capacity of the battery
is usually rated at C/10 or C/20 which means that, for a 2AH battery,
the rate of discharge in order to achieve full capacity would be, in
the first case, 200mA for 10 hours and in the second case, 100mA for
20 hours.


JF

Hey, John, don't confuse the poor guy with a lot of math and
technology.

Usenet is a magnet for amateurs with looney ideas.

John

 

Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.

Batteries should be specially designed for fast charge/discharge, but it's not at all impossible.
You just loose some of the energy density if you increase the power density.
Here is one where they did that :

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_energy_systems.html

Recharges in a few minutes.
35 kWh battery packs are in production.

Give us a break.

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_applications.html

This is yet another nanotech company that will change the world in a
dozen ways, including the mandatory cure of various diseases.

They lost $32M last year on $9M in sales. Net shareholder equity is
-57 million.

A lot of early automobile companies went belly up. ?It this an
argument that the automobile was never economically feasible?

First you wanted a fast charging battery. ? We gave it to you and now
you seem to want a fast charging battery from a well managed company.

What's next? ?A fast charging battery from a well managed company run
by naked women?

How about a fast-charging battery that's in actual production?

Go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy a lithium ion battery pack.

---
How much do they cost,

Whatever happened to rugged induhvidualism? �Visitwww.homedepot.com
and look it up.

how many are you going to need for your 400
horsepower tractor,

Much less on a unit power basis than any plug in hybrid. �The tractor
never needs to go more than a mile or, using two wires, a half mile
between charges.

and how long are they going to last until they can
no longer be charged?

The same as any other application, i. e., plug in hybrids.

And what are you going to do about a charger?

The tractor will have a trolly pole which will contact the wire after
each pass.

Instead of paying $110/hr for diesel you pay an illegal $12/hr to sit
in the tractor while it pauses to recharge.

And how are you going to get power to the field and not take
horrendous losses?

_What_ "horrendous losses?"

You need to show that there's something fundamentally different going
on with grid - battery tractors than EVs or plug in hybrids.

---
Blah, blah, blah...

You're talking about supplying 400 horsepower _from batteries_ for an
extended period of time.

Do the math: A quarter square is 1/2 mile long.

If the tractor speed is 10 mph, the "extended period of time" = 6
minutes for a one wire system or 3 minutes for a 2 wire system at
least an order of magnitude less than the time required by a plug in
hybrid.

Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stupid in real life?


Bret Cahill

 

You're talking about supplying 400 horsepower _from batteries_ for an
extended period of time.

Do the math, if you can, and then post what you find. �It'll be
interesting.

� �I'd like to see him connect the charger to that mythical battery

You actually admit you never heard of a rechargeable battery before?

Are you just acting stupid or are you really that dumb in real life?

Either way you now have standing to sue to recover any money you paid
for any "training" or "education" in electronics.

It will be an easy case against the trade school that ripped you off.

Just print out this post.


Bret Cahill

 

how much do they cost,

Whatever happened to rugged induhvidualism? �Visitwww.homedepot..com
and look it up.

� �Whatever happened to clear thought,

IWe're still waiting for some clear thinging on the fundamental
differences between plug in hybrids and grid-battery tractors.

I already provided one difference: The tractor battery only needs a
charge that will last a few minutes, an order of magnitude less time
than the hybrid.

. . .

You need to show that there's something fundamentally different going
on with grid - battery tractors than EVs or plug in hybrids.

� �You proved it. �

I knew that issue would force you into full issue dodging mode proving
you have nothing to say. By dodging the issue you proved you couldn't
think of any fundamental differences.

Here, we'll give you another chance to dodge:

You need to show that there's something fundamentally different going
on with grid - battery tractors than EVs or plug in hybrids.

Every time you dodge that issue you will be presented with it again.


Bret Cahill


"A coward dies a thousand deaths . . ."

 

And what are you going to do about a charger?

The tractor will have a trolly pole which will contact the wire after
each pass.

Instead of paying $110/hr for diesel you pay an illegal $12/hr to sit
in the tractor while it pauses to recharge.

And how are you going to get power to the field and not take
horrendous losses?

_What_ "horrendous losses?"

Notice the dodge?

Here, we'll try again:

What "horrendous losses?"

The $100 billion a year wasted on diesel for agriculture?


Bret Cahill

 

[Eeyore]

John Larkin wrote:

Life is so much more exciting without math.

And engineering.

The possibilities are endless.

Graham

 

[Phil scadden]

This discussion has absolutely nothing to do sci.math.num-analysis (or
most of the other groups). Kindly take discussion somewhere else.

--
Phil Scadden, Senior Scientist
GNS Science Ltd
764 Cumberland St, Private Bag 1930, Dunedin, New Zealand
Ph +64 3 4799663, fax +64 3 477 5232

 

[Phil scadden]

This discussion has absolutely nothing to do sci.math.num-analysis (or
most of the other groups). Kindly take discussion somewhere else.

--
Phil Scadden, Senior Scientist
GNS Science Ltd
764 Cumberland St, Private Bag 1930, Dunedin, New Zealand
Ph +64 3 4799663, fax +64 3 477 5232

 

[Bret Cahill]

Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

---
And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.

The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done. ?

---
Really?

Your 400 horsepower tractor, working for an hour,

It takes a hour to get across a field?

Notice the dodge?

What farming operation requires 400 hp to go 0.5 mph?

---
Hey, its _your_ number,

_You_ are the moron who thought it would take an hour to get across
the field.

_My_ number was 6 - 10 minutes to get across the field and back
between charges, _much_ less time than that expected of an EV or plug
in battery.

The more you try to be too clever by half the dumber you're gonna
look.

Any argument for plug in hybrids is an *a fortiori* argument for the
grid-battery "hybrid" tractor.

Poppycock.

Well?

Don't keep us settin' on the edges of our chairs.

Either tell us why plug in hybrids are a waste of money or how the
grid-battery tractor is fundamentally different than a plug in hybrid.

But don't just sit there and whine.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

It takes a hour to get across a field?

What farming operation requires 400 hp to go 0.5 mph?

� �See, you don't know anything about farming.

I ask a question and you dodge it.

Here, we'll try again:

What farming operation requires 400 hp to go 0.5 mph?

If you dodge again the only assumption is you are ignorant of farming
operations.

�I'll bet you thought
they plow at 60 MPH.

Well you lost that bet.

The record shows I always assumed a speed of 6 - 10 mph and that the
round trip would take 6 - 10 minutes, much less time that the charge
expected for an EV or plug in.


Bret Cahill