Grid-Battery "Hybrid" Tractors

[Bret Cahill]

So here are 3 plausible scenarios:

1. �electrify the fields & tractors, or,

2. �return to plowing fields with oxen, or,

3. �starve.

If you cannot come up with any ideas, cheap or otherwise, for a
plausible 4th scenario then I say we electrify the fields.

There is a whole level of technology that you missed. From 1880 to 1910
or so, this was high tech farming, and was growing rapidly. Peak
production year was 1912.

4) Biofuel (aka wood) fired steam tractors.

Few things are more entertaining than boiler explosions.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle's engine, it's
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. ?If the tank isn't connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. ?Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. ?Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It's a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.
A 1/2 mile long wire 10 ?- 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. ?A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. ?An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.
As agriculture become more automated there won't be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

What sort of battery charges in a minute or two?

One with lots of small cells. The smaller the cells, the faster the
charging time.

This should be common knowledge.

Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.

Everyday power tool lithium ion charges in 10 minutes.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

This should be common knowledge.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

Recharges in a few minutes.
35 kWh battery packs are in production.

That might be the right size for the 8 tire 400 hp articulated tractor
on a quarter square.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

Few things are more entertaining than boiler explosions.

Which are entirely preventable by a regular schedule
of hydrostatic testing. ďż˝

Which will piss off farmers even more than screwing around with a
trolly wire after every pass.

Throughout the U.S., this
is required by law.

Which is why the largest solar thermal plant on the world on a closely
monitored utility site will be Stirling and not steam.

The old 19th century designs were like little
locomotives, lots of cast iron and iron plate,
and rivets. ďż˝

An organic working fluid would be an improvement over H2O.

With modern materials and designs,
a steam tractor could be very competitive.

Just put the #$%#@! electric motor into the #$%#! tractor.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

Forget carbon. �Forget AGW. �The _only_ serious permanent solution is
to electrify the fields & tractors.

You mean like slot cars? �Or overhead wires
like street cars?

Just one 1/2 mile long wire on one end of a quarter square. The
tractor only needs a small battery to make each pass, about a mile.

With two wires, one at each end, the battery can be even smaller.

The GM Volt goes 40 miles between charges. The tractor goes one mile.

Or 1/2 mile.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.

Batteries should be specially designed for fast charge/discharge, but it's not at all impossible.
You just loose some of the energy density if you increase the power density.
Here is one where they did that :

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_energy_systems.html

Recharges in a few minutes.
35 kWh battery packs are in production.

Give us a break.

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_applications.html

This is yet another nanotech company that will change the world in a
dozen ways, including the mandatory cure of various diseases.

They lost $32M last year on $9M in sales. Net shareholder equity is
-57 million.

A lot of early automobile companies went belly up. It this an
argument that the automobile was never economically feasible?

First you wanted a fast charging battery. We gave it to you and now
you seem to want a fast charging battery from a well managed company.

What's next? A fast charging battery from a well managed company run
by naked women?


Bret Cahill

 

[John Fields]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

---
And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.

---
JF

 

[John Fields]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Forget carbon. ?Forget AGW. ?The _only_ serious permanent solution is
to electrify the fields & tractors.

You mean like slot cars? ?Or overhead wires
like street cars?

Just one 1/2 mile long wire on one end of a quarter square. The
tractor only needs a small battery to make each pass, about a mile.

---
Small battery?

Since 1 horsepower is equal to 746 watts, that means that your 400
horsepower tractor needs about a 300 kilowatt-hour battery to work for
an hour and, if the motor is rated for, say 300VDC, it'll need to draw
1000 amps from the battery when it's working, and that's not even
considering the unavoidable losses.

On top of that, if you want to charge the battery up in a couple of
minutes that means the charger's going to have to pump more than
120000 amps into it for two minutes and, if your wire is sitting at
1200 volts, it'll have to be able to supply 100 amps to the charger.

Again, disregarding losses.

Then there's the question of getting power to the wire...

The whole thing is a badly conceived, poorly thought out can of worms.
---

With two wires, one at each end, the battery can be even smaller.

The GM Volt goes 40 miles between charges. The tractor goes one mile.

Or 1/2 mile.

---
And your point is???

JF

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Forget carbon. ?Forget AGW. ?The _only_ serious permanent solution is
to electrify the fields & tractors.

You mean like slot cars? ?Or overhead wires
like street cars?

Just one 1/2 mile long wire on one end of a quarter square. The
tractor only needs a small battery to make each pass, about a mile.

With two wires, one at each end, the battery can be even smaller.

The GM Volt goes 40 miles between charges. The tractor goes one mile.

Or 1/2 mile.


Bret Cahill

In electric-only mode, the Volt will go 40 miles between charges.
Recharge time is 6-8 hours. That's no way to run a farm.

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:23:45 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.

Batteries should be specially designed for fast charge/discharge, but it's not at all impossible.
You just loose some of the energy density if you increase the power density.
Here is one where they did that :

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_energy_systems.html

Recharges in a few minutes.
35 kWh battery packs are in production.

Give us a break.

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_applications.html

This is yet another nanotech company that will change the world in a
dozen ways, including the mandatory cure of various diseases.

They lost $32M last year on $9M in sales. Net shareholder equity is
-57 million.

A lot of early automobile companies went belly up. ?It this an
argument that the automobile was never economically feasible?

First you wanted a fast charging battery. ? We gave it to you and now
you seem to want a fast charging battery from a well managed company.

What's next? ?A fast charging battery from a well managed company run
by naked women?

How about a fast-charging battery that's in actual production?

Go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy a lithium ion battery pack.

Got a link to a product? Most Li ion batteries charge in hours.
Toshiba announced a breakthrough fast-charge battery in 2005, but I
don't think it's real.

John

 

[Mark Thorson]

BretCahill@peoplepc.com wrote:

A steam tractor would have a much higher initial cost and require much
more maintence and training necessary than even an ICE. Unless you
had a steam - electric hybrid the load couldn't be changed rapidly.
Either you waste steam or time. Algae diesel is more promising.

You don't know what you're talking about.
Steam is mechanically far simpler than ICE.
It doesn't need a clutch or transmission
because a steam engine has a nearly flat
torque/RPM curve, unlike an ICE.

You have to jump through all sorts of hoops
to make an ICE drive a variable load, like
a transmission, spark advance mechanism,
high-octane fuels, anti-knock additives, etc.
Steam can use almost any fuel that burns,
even wood, and it can burn much more cleanly.
It produces no oxides of nitrogen, and a
properly adjusted flame produces almost no CO.

 

[John Fields]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:23:45 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.

Batteries should be specially designed for fast charge/discharge, but it's not at all impossible.
You just loose some of the energy density if you increase the power density.
Here is one where they did that :

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_energy_systems.html

Recharges in a few minutes.
35 kWh battery packs are in production.

Give us a break.

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_applications.html

This is yet another nanotech company that will change the world in a
dozen ways, including the mandatory cure of various diseases.

They lost $32M last year on $9M in sales. Net shareholder equity is
-57 million.

A lot of early automobile companies went belly up. ?It this an
argument that the automobile was never economically feasible?

First you wanted a fast charging battery. ? We gave it to you and now
you seem to want a fast charging battery from a well managed company.

What's next? ?A fast charging battery from a well managed company run
by naked women?

How about a fast-charging battery that's in actual production?

Go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy a lithium ion battery pack.

---
How much do they cost, how many are you going to need for your 400
horsepower tractor, and how long are they going to last until they can
no longer be charged?

And what are you going to do about a charger?

And how are you going to get power to the field and not take
horrendous losses?

You're grasping at straws trying to keep from waking up and finding
out what a nightmare your idiotic pipe dream really is.

JF

 

[John Fields]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:31:33 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

---
And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.

The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done.

---
Really?

Your 400 horsepower tractor, working for an hour, would need a battery
which can supply about 300KWH, (300 000 watt-hours) and if it's doing
it with an output voltage of 300V that means it needs to be rated for
an output of 1000AH at C/1.

That's a lot of watt-hours and a lot of work done.
---

The initial cost of a
production run electric tractor drive train would be less than a
diesel tractor.

Any argument for plug in hybrids is an *a fortiori* argument for the
grid-battery "hybrid" tractor.

---
Poppycock.

JF

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Bret Cahill wrote:

Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

This should be common knowledge.

More ignorant bullshit.


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Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming'
sheep.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

BretCahill@peoplepc.com wrote:

Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

---
And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.

The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done. The initial cost of a
production run electric tractor drive train would be less than a
diesel tractor.

Is there no end to your ignorance? Why do you think a tractor moves
so slow? Do you have ANY IDEA how much energy is required to plow hard
packed soil?.

Any argument for plug in hybrids is an *a fortiori* argument for the
grid-battery "hybrid" tractor.

Yawn...........


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sheep.

 

[John Fields]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:35:57 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

On Jul 21, 10:45?pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill

BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:
Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

This should be common knowledge.

Bret Cahill

Show us a link to a datasheet for such a battery.

Meanwhile, consider a AA size battery with, say, a 2 AH capacity.
Consider charging it in one minute.

See the problem?

No, at least nothing compared to the problem of paying $30 billion a
year -- soon to be $100 billion/yr -- for diesel used in agriculture.

---
Avoiding the issue by changing the subject, are we???

And here just a couple of post ago you mentioned that you play by the
honor system.

Well, now that we see that you're also a liar let me give you a little
clue as to how some of this here elecktrickle stuff works:

If a battery with a capacity of 2 AH (120 ampere-minutes) needs to be
recharged in two minutes, then you've got to fill it back up with the
same amount of electricity, but you've only got 2 minutes to do it in,
so you've got to pump it in faster than it came out. 60 times faster,
in fact, so that means instead of 2 amperes going in you've got to
force 120 amperes into that poor little AA battery. BIG problem!

Actually, because of losses, you'd have to pump more than that into it
to fully charge it and, just as an aside, the capacity of the battery
is usually rated at C/10 or C/20 which means that, for a 2AH battery,
the rate of discharge in order to achieve full capacity would be, in
the first case, 200mA for 10 hours and in the second case, 100mA for
20 hours.


JF

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

BretCahill@peoplepc.com wrote:

Whatever happened to rugged induhvidualism? Visit www.homedepot.com
and look it up.

Whatever happened to clear thought, and working out the details
before presenting an idea, so you don't prove yourself the fool?

Much less on a unit power basis than any plug in hybrid. The tractor
never needs to go more than a mile or, using two wires, a half mile
between charges.

and how long are they going to last until they can
no longer be charged?

The same as any other application, i. e., plug in hybrids.

And what are you going to do about a charger?

The tractor will have a trolly pole which will contact the wire after
each pass.

Instead of paying $110/hr for diesel you pay an illegal $12/hr to sit
in the tractor while it pauses to recharge.

And how are you going to get power to the field and not take
horrendous losses?

_What_ "horrendous losses?"

You need to show that there's something fundamentally different going
on with grid - battery tractors than EVs or plug in hybrids.

You proved it. There is no end to your ignorance of Physics, and the
real world. The batteries would weigh more than the tractor, requiring
more batteries. Then the tractor would have to be made larger to carry
the extra batteries. That would require even more batteries...

A dragline powered plow would make more sense, pulled from one end
of a straight furrow to the next, but you would still need large
electric motors, probably on railroad tracks to move from row to row
without having the tension pull them out of position.


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Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming'
sheep.

 

Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.

Batteries should be specially designed for fast charge/discharge, but it's not at all impossible.
You just loose some of the energy density if you increase the power density.
Here is one where they did that :

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_energy_systems.html

Recharges in a few minutes.
35 kWh battery packs are in production.

Give us a break.

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_applications.html

This is yet another nanotech company that will change the world in a
dozen ways, including the mandatory cure of various diseases.

They lost $32M last year on $9M in sales. Net shareholder equity is
-57 million.

A lot of early automobile companies went belly up. �It this an
argument that the automobile was never economically feasible?

First you wanted a fast charging battery. ďż˝ We gave it to you and now
you seem to want a fast charging battery from a well managed company.

What's next? �A fast charging battery from a well managed company run
by naked women?

How about a fast-charging battery that's in actual production?

Go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy a lithium ion battery pack.


Bret Cahill

 

Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

---
And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.

The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done. The initial cost of a
production run electric tractor drive train would be less than a
diesel tractor.

Any argument for plug in hybrids is an *a fortiori* argument for the
grid-battery "hybrid" tractor.


Bret Cahill