Getting electrocuted in bathtub

[Unlisted]

In the old days when plumbing was made of metal, people were
electrocuted in bathtubs if an electric appliance such as a hair dryer
or plug in radio fell into the tub while a person was in it.

However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are plastic. Thus
not grounded. Is it still possible to get electrocuted in an ungrounded
bathtub, if an appliance falls in the water?

Also, I remember being told to never take a bath when it's lightning
outside. Is that still valid today in a plastic plumbing system?

 

[Mike Coon]

In article <i5p4sellk9em404vc6ffha55blv4ot9v6g@4ax.com>,
unlisted@nomail.com says...

However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are plastic. Thus
not grounded. Is it still possible to get electrocuted in an ungrounded
bathtub, if an appliance falls in the water?

Errm, why do you want to know?...

Mike.

 

Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote in
news:MPG.382ca430f2d4a5889@news.plus.net:

In article <i5p4sellk9em404vc6ffha55blv4ot9v6g@4ax.com>,
unlisted@nomail.com says...

However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are plastic.
Thus not grounded. Is it still possible to get electrocuted in an
ungrounded bathtub, if an appliance falls in the water?

Errm, why do you want to know?...

Mike.

Just an appliance in the water is not going to make a path through the
body in either tub.

 

[duh]

On 11/6/2019 1:14 AM, Unlisted wrote:

In the old days when plumbing was made of metal, people were
electrocuted in bathtubs if an electric appliance such as a hair dryer
or plug in radio fell into the tub while a person was in it.

However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are plastic. Thus
not grounded. Is it still possible to get electrocuted in an ungrounded
bathtub, if an appliance falls in the water?

Also, I remember being told to never take a bath when it's lightning
outside. Is that still valid today in a plastic plumbing system?

Lightning travels 10 miles across the open sky and strikes your tubafor
house.
Do you think some wet plastic plumbing will save your ass?

 

[John S]

On 11/6/2019 7:03 AM, duh wrote:

On 11/6/2019 1:14 AM, Unlisted wrote:
In the old days when plumbing was made of metal, people were
electrocuted in bathtubs if an electric appliance such as a hair dryer
or plug in radio fell into the tub while a person was in it.

However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are plastic. Thus
not grounded. Is it still possible to get electrocuted in an ungrounded
bathtub, if an appliance falls in the water?

Also, I remember being told to never take a bath when it's lightning
outside. Is that still valid today in a plastic plumbing system?


Lightning travels 10 miles across the open sky and strikes your tubafor
house.
Do you think some wet plastic plumbing will save your ass?

Some farmers think the tires on their tractor provides protection. Loose
some farmers that way.

 

[Phil Allison]

Mike Coon wrote:
---------------

However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are plastic. Thus
not grounded. Is it still possible to get electrocuted in an ungrounded
bathtub, if an appliance falls in the water?

** Pipes carrying hot and cold water are metal and grounded.

With an appliance submerges in a tub full of soapy water, you better not touch a tap.

If the tub is cast metal and bonded to wet tiles and tiles and the floor, it is fairly well grounded.

Takes only 30ma to be fatal.

...... Phil

 

[Martin Brown]

On 06/11/2019 13:18, John S wrote:

On 11/6/2019 7:03 AM, duh wrote:

Lightning travels 10 miles across the open sky and strikes your
tubafor house.
Do you think some wet plastic plumbing will save your ass?

Some farmers think the tires on their tractor provides protection. Loose
some farmers that way.

That said being inside a car is a fair bit safer than standing outside.
The metal Faraday cage isn't perfect but it is better than nothing.

A building I worked in took a direct lightning hit on one apex. The
strike ran down the telephone cables to the main switchboard instantly
vapourising them to a black mess. The switchboard girl was inconsolable
and temporarily deaf. The other resulting damage was most peculiar.

Surge arresters supposed to protect computer terminal lines saved
themselves by allowing more expensive IO boards to fry in the mainframe.
They had to be replaced as a precaution anyway. Terminals all survived.
Murphy's law that only the most expensive bits took damage.


It was more than a bit annoying that the strike hit us and not the much
higher supergrid pylon just 30m away.

In another incident I narrowly missed seeing ball lightning during a
particularly violent summer thunderstorm. Physicist friends did see it.

People are hit by lightning and some do survive. They have interesting
Lichenberg figure skin burn pattern marks from the discharge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtenberg_figure

https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/what-does-it-look-when-person-gets-struck-lightning/


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Clive Arthur]

On 06/11/2019 06:14, Unlisted wrote:

In the old days when plumbing was made of metal, people were
electrocuted in bathtubs if an electric appliance such as a hair dryer
or plug in radio fell into the tub while a person was in it.

However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are plastic. Thus
not grounded. Is it still possible to get electrocuted in an ungrounded
bathtub, if an appliance falls in the water?

Also, I remember being told to never take a bath when it's lightning
outside. Is that still valid today in a plastic plumbing system?

I'm guessing that electrocution occurred when the panicking person tried
to lift the appliance out of the bath. If that were the case, then a
plastic bath and pipes would help. I'm not going to do the experiment.

Cheers
--
Clive

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 8:34:47 AM UTC-5, Phil Allison wrote:

Mike Coon wrote:
---------------


However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are plastic. Thus
not grounded. Is it still possible to get electrocuted in an ungrounded
bathtub, if an appliance falls in the water?



** Pipes carrying hot and cold water are metal and grounded.

Only if they are metal, which is the point to his question.

With an appliance submerges in a tub full of soapy water, you better not touch a tap.

If the tub is cast metal and bonded to wet tiles and tiles and the floor, it is fairly well grounded.

If it's a slab floor, I would agree. Those would be sitting on concrete,
not tiles. But not if it's on a typical wood construction floor
above grade.

Takes only 30ma to be fatal.

..... Phil

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 9:30:38 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:

On 06/11/2019 13:18, John S wrote:
On 11/6/2019 7:03 AM, duh wrote:

Lightning travels 10 miles across the open sky and strikes your
tubafor house.
Do you think some wet plastic plumbing will save your ass?

Some farmers think the tires on their tractor provides protection. Loose
some farmers that way.

That said being inside a car is a fair bit safer than standing outside.
The metal Faraday cage isn't perfect but it is better than nothing.

I'd say it's a lot more than just a fair bit safer. I've never heard
of anyone being electrocuted or even receiving a shock from lightning
while inside a car.

A building I worked in took a direct lightning hit on one apex. The
strike ran down the telephone cables to the main switchboard instantly
vapourising them to a black mess. The switchboard girl was inconsolable
and temporarily deaf. The other resulting damage was most peculiar.

Surge arresters supposed to protect computer terminal lines saved
themselves by allowing more expensive IO boards to fry in the mainframe.
They had to be replaced as a precaution anyway. Terminals all survived.
Murphy's law that only the most expensive bits took damage.

It's likely something was done wrong with regard to the protection. Installations like that, eg telephone central offices are protected
and suffer no damage. If you don't do it right, then it can just
divert the energy somewhere else, instead of to ground.

It was more than a bit annoying that the strike hit us and not the much
higher supergrid pylon just 30m away.

In another incident I narrowly missed seeing ball lightning during a
particularly violent summer thunderstorm. Physicist friends did see it.

People are hit by lightning and some do survive. They have interesting
Lichenberg figure skin burn pattern marks from the discharge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtenberg_figure

https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/what-does-it-look-when-person-gets-struck-lightning/


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[mpm]

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 4:35:26 AM UTC-5, Mike Coon wrote:

In article <l.com says...

However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are plastic. Thus
not grounded. Is it still possible to get electrocuted in an ungrounded
bathtub, if an appliance falls in the water?

Errm, why do you want to know?...

Mike.

Such a scenario was featured in Season-3 of Goliath.
(Great show, BTW) Might be the last season.

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 6:00:21 AM UTC-5, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote in
news:MPG.382ca430f2d4a5889@news.plus.net:

In article <i5p4sellk9em404vc6ffha55blv4ot9v6g@4ax.com>,
unlisted@nomail.com says...

However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are plastic.
Thus not grounded. Is it still possible to get electrocuted in an
ungrounded bathtub, if an appliance falls in the water?

Errm, why do you want to know?...

Mike.


Just an appliance in the water is not going to make a path through the
body in either tub.

Myth Busters did a piece on this and showed it very much WOULD produce a current that would kill a person. It only takes a few mA of current to stop the heart. With the many mA of current flowing through the water it makes sense some of it would flow through the body. Remember, in water the skin resistance drops a lot and a person is very likely a better conductor than the water, or at least no worse.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 06 Nov 2019 00:14:16 -0600, Unlisted
<unlisted@nomail.com> wrote:

In the old days when plumbing was made of metal, people were
electrocuted in bathtubs if an electric appliance such as a hair dryer
or plug in radio fell into the tub while a person was in it.

However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are plastic. Thus
not grounded. Is it still possible to get electrocuted in an ungrounded
bathtub, if an appliance falls in the water?

Also, I remember being told to never take a bath when it's lightning
outside. Is that still valid today in a plastic plumbing system?

I don't know much about the rest but i know that lightning doesn't need
a continuous path to ground. After all, it jumps 1000's of feet from the
sky to the earth and it will also jump iirc a foot or more from one
conductor to another. There are still grounded electrical outlets and
afaik copper water pipes are very common. I have them.

 

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:02:59 +0000, Clive Arthur
<cliveta@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

On 06/11/2019 06:14, Unlisted wrote:
In the old days when plumbing was made of metal, people were
electrocuted in bathtubs if an electric appliance such as a hair dryer
or plug in radio fell into the tub while a person was in it.

However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are plastic. Thus
not grounded. Is it still possible to get electrocuted in an ungrounded
bathtub, if an appliance falls in the water?

Also, I remember being told to never take a bath when it's lightning
outside. Is that still valid today in a plastic plumbing system?

I'm guessing that electrocution occurred when the panicking person tried
to lift the appliance out of the bath.

I was going to say the same thing after I read the other posts. In
Goldfinger, the person gets shocked immediately, but there's no special
reason I know why the electricity would go through her body (was it a
woman?) instead of a shorter path** through the dirty, soapy water.
What one should do is avoid the radio and get out of the tub without
touching it.

You can measure the resistance of your body with an ohmmeter, a VOM, but
the greatest resistance is between the probe and the skin.. Get that
wet, maybe even salt-water wet (pushing the probe firmly against your
skin will lower the resistance there), and measure from one part of your
body to another.

Then you can measure the resistance of the bath water. Try it with
different levels of dirtiness and soapiness. And compare the two.

I'm curious what you find. Post back.

**BTW, even in homes with copper pipes, unless the water is running (and
even really not then), the supply pipes don't' come in contact with the
bathwater. It's only the drain that does, and if people don't have
plastic drains they have ceramic drains. No one has metal drain pipe,
do they? So be double sure not to pick the radio up with one hand hold
onto the bath spout with the other.

If that were the case, then a
plastic bath and pipes would help. I'm not going to do the experiment.

Me neither.

>Cheers

 

John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote in
news:qpuh7n$tck$2@dont-email.me:

On 11/6/2019 7:03 AM, duh wrote:
On 11/6/2019 1:14 AM, Unlisted wrote:
In the old days when plumbing was made of metal, people were
electrocuted in bathtubs if an electric appliance such as a hair
dryer or plug in radio fell into the tub while a person was in
it.

However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are
plastic. Thus not grounded. Is it still possible to get
electrocuted in an ungrounded bathtub, if an appliance falls in
the water?

Also, I remember being told to never take a bath when it's
lightning outside. Is that still valid today in a plastic
plumbing system?


Lightning travels 10 miles across the open sky and strikes your
tubafor house.
Do you think some wet plastic plumbing will save your ass?

Some farmers think the tires on their tractor provides protection.
Loose some farmers that way.

How many farmers have been 'loosed' 'that way'?

I think it is far fewer than you would like folks to believe.

And it is miles, but it ain't ten miles.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

torsdag den 7. november 2019 kl. 00.19.39 UTC+1 skrev Phil Allison:

Whoey Louie wrote:

-------------------


** Pipes carrying hot and cold water are metal and grounded.

Only if they are metal,


** No other kind found or allowed in most countries.

Plastic is only used for drain and sewerage pipes.

Plus outdoor hoses etc.

what? plastic is used all over the place for both drinking and heating water

 

[Phil Allison]

Whoey Louie wrote:

-------------------

** Pipes carrying hot and cold water are metal and grounded.

Only if they are metal,

** No other kind found or allowed in most countries.

Plastic is only used for drain and sewerage pipes.

Plus outdoor hoses etc.


...... Phil

 

duh <duh@duh.club> wrote in newswzwF.6732$%o2.192@fx31.iad:

On 11/6/2019 1:14 AM, Unlisted wrote:
In the old days when plumbing was made of metal, people were
electrocuted in bathtubs if an electric appliance such as a hair
dryer or plug in radio fell into the tub while a person was in
it.

However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are plastic.
Thus not grounded. Is it still possible to get electrocuted in an
ungrounded bathtub, if an appliance falls in the water?

Also, I remember being told to never take a bath when it's
lightning outside. Is that still valid today in a plastic
plumbing system?


Lightning travels 10 miles across the open sky and strikes your
tubafor house.
Do you think some wet plastic plumbing will save your ass?

There is a big difference between lightning and a breaker protected
residential service branch.

The lightning travels across miles because it is at millions of
volts potential.

Residential service voltages will not even travel trough a bread
bag, much less your PVC plumbing.

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 3:19:27 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:02:59 +0000, Clive Arthur
cliveta@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

On 06/11/2019 06:14, Unlisted wrote:
In the old days when plumbing was made of metal, people were
electrocuted in bathtubs if an electric appliance such as a hair dryer
or plug in radio fell into the tub while a person was in it.

However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are plastic. Thus
not grounded. Is it still possible to get electrocuted in an ungrounded
bathtub, if an appliance falls in the water?

Also, I remember being told to never take a bath when it's lightning
outside. Is that still valid today in a plastic plumbing system?

I'm guessing that electrocution occurred when the panicking person tried
to lift the appliance out of the bath.

I was going to say the same thing after I read the other posts. In
Goldfinger, the person gets shocked immediately, but there's no special
reason I know why the electricity would go through her body (was it a
woman?) instead of a shorter path** through the dirty, soapy water.
What one should do is avoid the radio and get out of the tub without
touching it.

There's the fallacy. You think the human body is a poor conductor of electricity. It's not. Your body is a better conductor than the bath water.

You can measure the resistance of your body with an ohmmeter, a VOM, but
the greatest resistance is between the probe and the skin.. Get that
wet, maybe even salt-water wet (pushing the probe firmly against your
skin will lower the resistance there), and measure from one part of your
body to another.

That's the key. Once past the skin as the water in the bath will provide the body conducts very well. We are chock full of electrolytes. Gatorade anyone?

Then you can measure the resistance of the bath water. Try it with
different levels of dirtiness and soapiness. And compare the two.

I'm curious what you find. Post back.

What's the current from a typical ohm meter? With sufficient wetting the experimenter might never report back. Perhaps the water conductivity should be measured first.

**BTW, even in homes with copper pipes, unless the water is running (and
even really not then), the supply pipes don't' come in contact with the
bathwater. It's only the drain that does, and if people don't have
plastic drains they have ceramic drains. No one has metal drain pipe,
do they?

Of course they do. Cast iron.

So be double sure not to pick the radio up with one hand hold
onto the bath spout with the other.

If that were the case, then a
plastic bath and pipes would help. I'm not going to do the experiment.

Me neither.

I guess someone will have to volunteer. Please send me your donations to pay for funeral expenses and I'll get on that.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in
news:2f3703ad-3fb9-4cb2-85fb-e78f5b91e312@googlegroups.com:

Mike Coon wrote:
---------------


However, modern tubs and the pipes connected to them are
plastic. Thus not grounded. Is it still possible to get
electrocuted in an ungrounded bathtub, if an appliance falls in
the water?



** Pipes carrying hot and cold water are metal and grounded.

With an appliance submerges in a tub full of soapy water, you
better not touch a tap.

If the tub is cast metal and bonded to wet tiles and tiles and the
floor, it is fairly well grounded.

Takes only 30ma to be fatal.

..... Phil

Across the chest. Get it right.

A 100mA jolt from one leg to the other does NOT fibrillate the
heart. But less than half that from one arm to the other (across the
chest) can.

Regular defib paddles are dumping 30 or 40 mA in the region between
the paddles.

In open heart surgery the defib paddles only push 2mA surges.
Paddles right on the heart.

Even the Myth Busters got it wrong with their set-up and analysis.

The 'appliance' dropped into 'the tub' will use the gap between its
two input terminals as a shortest path resistor and start passing
current and heating the water in that gap. There *may* also be some
current paths between the appliance 'hot' and the tub tap and or
drain hardware if they are grounded. NOT if they are 'floating'.
And the drain, not the taps is usually the only thing 'touching' the
water. Sometimes the shower toggle lever.

Placing a person between the appliance / drain path will not likely
place much of the current flowing through said person, and any it
does push will not be much.

An electrocution will ocuur if the device got wet and then the user
tries to pick it up and the arm (hot) is up out of the water
(ground).