Generator Hookup

[Jon]

The electric service goes to the house, but I want to run the generator in
the barn. So far I know,

* there are 3 unused #10 wires buried between the house and the barn.
* the electric to the barn comes from the house in 2 buried #000 cables.

Some of the parts I have to work with are

* a 3pst relay with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 90amps
* the above coil also activates 4 N.O. and 4 N.C. contacts rated for 15amps
* two 3pdt relays with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 30amps at 300vac
* a spst mercury relay with a 240vac coil and contacts rated for 60amps

Here are the rules:

When the MAIN switch is ON, all generator wires must be disconnected.
When the MAIN is OFF, it is safe to connect all generator wires.

I take it that many of you were irritated with me over my last post. I
don't know how you got it I lived in Virginia, but whatever. This past
weekend I spent fixing up a computer and building a network in my home. I
guess it's nice I accidentally firewalled out my address, but since I did I
don't have to deal with backstabbers like some of you. See if I care if you
find out where I live, but I'm not volunteering the information.

If any of you have any smarts you'll solve the puzzle and come up with a
circuit that works and is up to code.

 

[Tim Watts]

Jon <jon8338@peoplepc.com>
wibbled on Monday 08 March 2010 13:53

The electric service goes to the house, but I want to run the generator in
the barn. So far I know,

* there are 3 unused #10 wires buried between the house and the barn.
* the electric to the barn comes from the house in 2 buried #000 cables.

Some of the parts I have to work with are

* a 3pst relay with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 90amps
* the above coil also activates 4 N.O. and 4 N.C. contacts rated for
15amps * two 3pdt relays with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 30amps
at 300vac * a spst mercury relay with a 240vac coil and contacts rated for
60amps

To switch the entire house over, you need a changeover switch or relay rated
to full utility supply current (ie whatever your utility protective fuses
are rated at). The key word is changeover - nothing else will do.

You do not appear to have that device in your inventory.

The other solution is to split your house circuits into 2 groups, essential
and non essential and put the wiring to each on separate breaker panels. Use
the 30A DT relays to switch the supply to the *essential* breaker panel
between utility and generator.

This ASSUMES the relay in question has the required isolation parameters and
is GUARANTEED break before make.

Also, you would probably feed the utility supply to the "essential" breaker
panel from a 30A breaker off the main panel to provide adequate protection
to the relay and wiring which constitutes the distribution circuit.

And you may need to sort the grounds out in the event of local supply.

What I've described would more or less fit with the British IEE Wiring regs,
but would need cross checking in detail with the NEC and any local codes.

But there is a lot riding on the transfer device specifications due to the
fault currents it may be expected to handle (100's of amps at least - here
my potential short circuit current is 1200A at 240V, supply impedance having
been measured at around 0.2 Ohm) and the isolation characteristics - even I
would be unhappy about putting an unapproved part to that use.

Would a say, 500A surge weld your contacts before the main fuses clear the
fault?

Do not even think about using your 3pst relay to isolate the utility
incomer, that would be against the rules here with good reason and I would
wager it is against yours.

Here it considered quite normal to split the wiring into 2 groups as most
home generators would never supply a house under full load and are used just
to keep the gas/oil heating going and a few lights.

However, it probably won't be any cheaper to buy and install a second panel
than it would be to buy a type approved transfer device and sleep easy at
night.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

 

[Fred Abse]

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 08:53:51 -0500, Jon wrote:

If any of you have any smarts you'll solve the puzzle and come up with a
circuit that works and is up to code.

I would have thought that this subject had already been talked out.

This sort of project should only be undertaken by someone with a full
understanding of the engineering and safety principles involved. It is
not for the hobbyist or handyman.

Judging by the questions you are asking, you are not such a person.

--
"Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference
is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it."
(Stephen Leacock)

 

[John Fields]

On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:53:51 -0500, "Jon" <jon8338@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The electric service goes to the house, but I want to run the generator in
the barn. So far I know,

* there are 3 unused #10 wires buried between the house and the barn.
* the electric to the barn comes from the house in 2 buried #000 cables.

Some of the parts I have to work with are

* a 3pst relay with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 90amps
* the above coil also activates 4 N.O. and 4 N.C. contacts rated for 15amps
* two 3pdt relays with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 30amps at 300vac
* a spst mercury relay with a 240vac coil and contacts rated for 60amps

Here are the rules:

When the MAIN switch is ON, all generator wires must be disconnected.
When the MAIN is OFF, it is safe to connect all generator wires.

I take it that many of you were irritated with me over my last post. I
don't know how you got it I lived in Virginia, but whatever. This past
weekend I spent fixing up a computer and building a network in my home. I
guess it's nice I accidentally firewalled out my address, but since I did I
don't have to deal with backstabbers like some of you. See if I care if you
find out where I live, but I'm not volunteering the information.

---
Rather a juvenile outburst, but hardly a surprise.
---

If any of you have any smarts you'll solve the puzzle and come up with a
circuit that works and is up to code.

---
Since it's _you_ who can't solve the puzzle, I suggest that the
statement about who has smarts and who doesn't is misdirected.

Also, I think the decision to not help you is a wise one since you've
got an attitude and you seem to think that not allowing your precious
generator to be damaged should be the circuit's primary function.

JF

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 12:22:12 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:53:51 -0500, "Jon" <jon8338@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The electric service goes to the house, but I want to run the generator in
the barn. So far I know,

* there are 3 unused #10 wires buried between the house and the barn.
* the electric to the barn comes from the house in 2 buried #000 cables.

Some of the parts I have to work with are

* a 3pst relay with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 90amps
* the above coil also activates 4 N.O. and 4 N.C. contacts rated for 15amps
* two 3pdt relays with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 30amps at 300vac
* a spst mercury relay with a 240vac coil and contacts rated for 60amps

Here are the rules:

When the MAIN switch is ON, all generator wires must be disconnected.
When the MAIN is OFF, it is safe to connect all generator wires.

I take it that many of you were irritated with me over my last post. I
don't know how you got it I lived in Virginia, but whatever. This past
weekend I spent fixing up a computer and building a network in my home. I
guess it's nice I accidentally firewalled out my address, but since I did I
don't have to deal with backstabbers like some of you. See if I care if you
find out where I live, but I'm not volunteering the information.

---
Rather a juvenile outburst, but hardly a surprise.
---

If any of you have any smarts you'll solve the puzzle and come up with a
circuit that works and is up to code.

---
Since it's _you_ who can't solve the puzzle, I suggest that the
statement about who has smarts and who doesn't is misdirected.

Also, I think the decision to not help you is a wise one since you've
got an attitude and you seem to think that not allowing your precious
generator to be damaged should be the circuit's primary function.

JF

If someone has a trace on the guy, report him to his local power
company.

Otherwise he's liable to kill someone.

Or tell me and I'll do the deed... I have no problem being the "rat"


I do vaguely remember he's in Virginia somewhere? If so I can send
one of my redneck relatives to "educate" him.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

The only thing bipartisan in this country is hypocrisy

 

[mpm]

On Mar 8, 8:53 am, "Jon" <jon8...@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The electric service goes to the house, but I want to run the generator in
the barn.  So far I know,

* there are 3 unused #10 wires buried between the house and the barn.
* the electric to the barn comes from the house in 2 buried #000 cables.

Some of the parts I have to work with are

* a 3pst relay with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 90amps
* the above coil also activates 4 N.O. and 4 N.C. contacts rated for 15amps
* two 3pdt relays with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 30amps at 300vac
* a spst mercury relay with a 240vac coil and contacts rated for 60amps

Here are the rules:

When the MAIN switch is ON, all generator wires must be disconnected.
When the MAIN is OFF, it is safe to connect all generator wires.

I take it that many of you were irritated with me over my last post.  I
don't know how you got it I lived in Virginia, but whatever.  This past
weekend I spent fixing up a computer and building a network in my home.  I
guess it's nice I accidentally firewalled out my address, but since I did I
don't have to deal with backstabbers like some of you.  See if I care if you
find out where I live, but I'm not volunteering the information.

If any of you have any smarts you'll solve the puzzle and come up with a
circuit that works and is up to code.

You could give me the bill of materials for a guillotine.
Doesn't mean I want to cobble one out and try it on myself.

Sounds like you're pretty fixated on doing something that is likely
(and has gotten) people killed in similar circumstances.

Just remember:
Good judgement comes from bad experiences, which come from bad
judgement.

You are evidently still on the tail end of the above adage.

 

[Glen Walpert]

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 11:30:20 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 12:22:12 -0600, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:53:51 -0500, "Jon" <jon8338@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The electric service goes to the house, but I want to run the generator
in the barn. So far I know,

* there are 3 unused #10 wires buried between the house and the barn. *
the electric to the barn comes from the house in 2 buried #000 cables.

Some of the parts I have to work with are

* a 3pst relay with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 90amps * the
above coil also activates 4 N.O. and 4 N.C. contacts rated for 15amps *
two 3pdt relays with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 30amps at
300vac * a spst mercury relay with a 240vac coil and contacts rated for
60amps

Here are the rules:

When the MAIN switch is ON, all generator wires must be disconnected.
When the MAIN is OFF, it is safe to connect all generator wires.

I take it that many of you were irritated with me over my last post. I
don't know how you got it I lived in Virginia, but whatever. This past
weekend I spent fixing up a computer and building a network in my home.
I guess it's nice I accidentally firewalled out my address, but since
I did I don't have to deal with backstabbers like some of you. See if
I care if you find out where I live, but I'm not volunteering the
information.

---
Rather a juvenile outburst, but hardly a surprise. ---

If any of you have any smarts you'll solve the puzzle and come up with
a circuit that works and is up to code.

---
Since it's _you_ who can't solve the puzzle, I suggest that the
statement about who has smarts and who doesn't is misdirected.

Also, I think the decision to not help you is a wise one since you've
got an attitude and you seem to think that not allowing your precious
generator to be damaged should be the circuit's primary function.

JF

If someone has a trace on the guy, report him to his local power
company.

Otherwise he's liable to kill someone.

Or tell me and I'll do the deed... I have no problem being the "rat"

I do vaguely remember he's in Virginia somewhere? If so I can send one
of my redneck relatives to "educate" him.

I think the utility company can and will do a suitable job of educating;
in cases I have heard of where illegal generator hookups were found the
utility disconnected the service with notification that they would
reconnect only upon receiving a copy of the inspection report from a
licensed electrical inspector. How many utility companies can there be
in Virginia? I'll bet that any of them would get the warrant to get his
address from his ISP if provided with a copy of his message asserting his
intentions of making an illegal generator hookup. Then the correct
utility would have no trouble getting a warrant to inspect his premises.

If I were him I would be prepared to show them the inspection report for
the legal installation when they show up. Probably he needs to hire an
electrician to do that; he obviously has not read the NEC.

 

[Jon]

All I need is a dpdt knife switch. If I was cheap I'd get some copper and
make one myself.

I just bought an economical manual dpdt transfer switch rated for 100a at
240vac. I might have to have the electric company disconnect service so I
can wire it in.

Don't tell me now I did something wrong. What?


"Tim Watts" <tw@dionic.net> wrote in message
news:hn33pl$evm$1@news.eternal-september.org...

Jon <jon8338@peoplepc.com
wibbled on Monday 08 March 2010 13:53

The electric service goes to the house, but I want to run the generator
in
the barn. So far I know,

* there are 3 unused #10 wires buried between the house and the barn.
* the electric to the barn comes from the house in 2 buried #000 cables.

Some of the parts I have to work with are

* a 3pst relay with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 90amps
* the above coil also activates 4 N.O. and 4 N.C. contacts rated for
15amps * two 3pdt relays with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 30amps
at 300vac * a spst mercury relay with a 240vac coil and contacts rated
for
60amps

To switch the entire house over, you need a changeover switch or relay
rated
to full utility supply current (ie whatever your utility protective fuses
are rated at). The key word is changeover - nothing else will do.

You do not appear to have that device in your inventory.

The other solution is to split your house circuits into 2 groups,
essential
and non essential and put the wiring to each on separate breaker panels.
Use
the 30A DT relays to switch the supply to the *essential* breaker panel
between utility and generator.

This ASSUMES the relay in question has the required isolation parameters
and
is GUARANTEED break before make.

Also, you would probably feed the utility supply to the "essential"
breaker
panel from a 30A breaker off the main panel to provide adequate protection
to the relay and wiring which constitutes the distribution circuit.

And you may need to sort the grounds out in the event of local supply.

What I've described would more or less fit with the British IEE Wiring
regs,
but would need cross checking in detail with the NEC and any local codes.

But there is a lot riding on the transfer device specifications due to the
fault currents it may be expected to handle (100's of amps at least - here
my potential short circuit current is 1200A at 240V, supply impedance
having
been measured at around 0.2 Ohm) and the isolation characteristics - even
I
would be unhappy about putting an unapproved part to that use.

Would a say, 500A surge weld your contacts before the main fuses clear the
fault?

Do not even think about using your 3pst relay to isolate the utility
incomer, that would be against the rules here with good reason and I would
wager it is against yours.

Here it considered quite normal to split the wiring into 2 groups as most
home generators would never supply a house under full load and are used
just
to keep the gas/oil heating going and a few lights.

However, it probably won't be any cheaper to buy and install a second
panel
than it would be to buy a type approved transfer device and sleep easy at
night.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

 

[Tim Watts]

Jon <jon8338@peoplepc.com>
wibbled on Tuesday 09 March 2010 06:41

All I need is a dpdt knife switch. If I was cheap I'd get some copper and
make one myself.

I just bought an economical manual dpdt transfer switch rated for 100a at
240vac. I might have to have the electric company disconnect service so I
can wire it in.

Don't tell me now I did something wrong. What?

Don't you need 3p (two lives and a neutral)?

Have you found out how you need to handle the ground/earth connection? Here,
in the event of a power failure, the utility earth cannot be trusted, so for
a generator hookup, one needs a local earth rod or rods bonded to the
neutral of the generator. As the earth loop fault impedance is now too high
(typically 100+ Ohms for earth rod impedance) to trip a type B or C breaker
in a timely manner, an RCD (you call them GFCI I think) must also be
employed). What does your code say?

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

 

[PeterD]

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010 01:41:44 -0500, "Jon" <jon8338@peoplepc.com> wrote:

All I need is a dpdt knife switch. If I was cheap I'd get some copper and
make one myself.

I just bought an economical manual dpdt transfer switch rated for 100a at
240vac. I might have to have the electric company disconnect service so I
can wire it in.

Don't tell me now I did something wrong. What?

Aw, crap, here is the cheapest *acceptable* solution:

http://www.interlockkit.com/intro2.htm

Now, will those who want to skip safety please get either an automatic
change over, a manual changeover (like that knife switch!) or one of
these things? <BFG>

 

[PeterD]

On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 06:55:17 +0000, Tim Watts <tw@dionic.net> wrote:

Jon <jon8338@peoplepc.com
wibbled on Tuesday 09 March 2010 06:41

All I need is a dpdt knife switch. If I was cheap I'd get some copper and
make one myself.

I just bought an economical manual dpdt transfer switch rated for 100a at
240vac. I might have to have the electric company disconnect service so I
can wire it in.

Don't tell me now I did something wrong. What?


Don't you need 3p (two lives and a neutral)?

Never switch neutral.

Have you found out how you need to handle the ground/earth connection? Here,
in the event of a power failure,

See above...

the utility earth cannot be trusted,

You're required to have ground on your premises at the entrypoint.
Typically three ground rods.

so for
a generator hookup, one needs a local earth rod or rods bonded to the
neutral of the generator.

Not just generator, but all service. And that's why you never switch
neutral.

As the earth loop fault impedance is now too high
(typically 100+ Ohms for earth rod impedance) to trip a type B or C breaker
in a timely manner, an RCD (you call them GFCI I think) must also be
employed). What does your code say?

(Comments based on USA rules, may vary in other countries!)

 

[Tim Watts]

PeterD <peter2@hipson.net>
wibbled on Tuesday 09 March 2010 13:14

On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 06:55:17 +0000, Tim Watts <tw@dionic.net> wrote:

Jon <jon8338@peoplepc.com
wibbled on Tuesday 09 March 2010 06:41

All I need is a dpdt knife switch. If I was cheap I'd get some copper
and make one myself.

I just bought an economical manual dpdt transfer switch rated for 100a
at
240vac. I might have to have the electric company disconnect service so
I can wire it in.

Don't tell me now I did something wrong. What?


Don't you need 3p (two lives and a neutral)?

Never switch neutral.


Have you found out how you need to handle the ground/earth connection?
Here, in the event of a power failure,

See above...

the utility earth cannot be trusted,

You're required to have ground on your premises at the entrypoint.
Typically three ground rods.

so for
a generator hookup, one needs a local earth rod or rods bonded to the
neutral of the generator.

Not just generator, but all service. And that's why you never switch
neutral.

As the earth loop fault impedance is now too high
(typically 100+ Ohms for earth rod impedance) to trip a type B or C
breaker in a timely manner, an RCD (you call them GFCI I think) must also
be employed). What does your code say?

(Comments based on USA rules, may vary in other countries!)

That is interesting. Under the IEE Regs (UK), the neutral is considered a
live (ie dangerous). To distinguish what most people think of as a "live",
the other supply conductor is termed "phase", or more recently "line".

Thus, we are required to switch out the neutral in the OP's scenario, which
is pertinent, as with certain types of supply fault on our 3 phase system,
the neutral can potentially move up to 240V away from earth (and lead to a
local 1 phase outlet experiencing a large voltage between the live and
neutral, eg >300V - a scenario I have witnessed).

We have an interesting edge case due to having three different types of
utility earth provision:

1) None - (usually overhead wires, pole transformer nearby) - customer
provides their own earth via rods or similar;

2) TN-S where the earth conductor is continuous all the way back to the last
transformer (which is typically an 11kV-240V 3 phase jobbie supplying
several roads). This is a pretty bomb proof system for underground cabling
but is less popular as it requires more metal in the cables. Originally the
lead serving (sheathing) on the old paper/tallow cables maintained the
earth, but even where such cables still exist, the lead is rotting away and
becoming unreliable.

3) TN-C-S - earth and neutral are the same conductor until the customer
premsises where they are separated.

Case 3 is the fiddly one - although the earth/neutral is rodded down to real
earth periodically by the supplier, it is not fully reliable in the case of
certain faults and could be pulled away from the local earth potential by
the wrong type of supply side fault. I'd have to read the generator part of
the regs to see what to do with this case here, but it's not clear cut for
reasons given.

The motto is of course, nothing should be taken as obvious until the
regs/codes have been read

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

 

[John Fields]

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010 01:41:44 -0500, "Jon" <jon8338@peoplepc.com> wrote:

All I need is a dpdt knife switch. If I was cheap I'd get some copper and
make one myself.

I just bought an economical manual dpdt transfer switch rated for 100a at
240vac. I might have to have the electric company disconnect service so I
can wire it in.

Don't tell me now I did something wrong. What?

---
Not just something, two things:

1. You top posted.

2. Unless you plan to install the switch on the hot side of the meter
because you have no mains breaker on the load side, your assumption
that you'd need service disconnected in order to install the switch
is wrong.

JF

 

[PeterD]

On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 14:02:20 +0000, Tim Watts <tw@dionic.net> wrote:

PeterD <peter2@hipson.net
wibbled on Tuesday 09 March 2010 13:14

On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 06:55:17 +0000, Tim Watts <tw@dionic.net> wrote:

Jon <jon8338@peoplepc.com
wibbled on Tuesday 09 March 2010 06:41

All I need is a dpdt knife switch. If I was cheap I'd get some copper
and make one myself.

I just bought an economical manual dpdt transfer switch rated for 100a
at
240vac. I might have to have the electric company disconnect service so
I can wire it in.

Don't tell me now I did something wrong. What?


Don't you need 3p (two lives and a neutral)?

Never switch neutral.


Have you found out how you need to handle the ground/earth connection?
Here, in the event of a power failure,

See above...

the utility earth cannot be trusted,

You're required to have ground on your premises at the entrypoint.
Typically three ground rods.

so for
a generator hookup, one needs a local earth rod or rods bonded to the
neutral of the generator.

Not just generator, but all service. And that's why you never switch
neutral.

As the earth loop fault impedance is now too high
(typically 100+ Ohms for earth rod impedance) to trip a type B or C
breaker in a timely manner, an RCD (you call them GFCI I think) must also
be employed). What does your code say?

(Comments based on USA rules, may vary in other countries!)

That is interesting. Under the IEE Regs (UK), the neutral is considered a
live (ie dangerous). To distinguish what most people think of as a "live",
the other supply conductor is termed "phase", or more recently "line".

Hence my disclaimer! <g> In the US, the neutral is connected to ground
in the power system in several places, including at the pole, and
again at the entry/box. We're very big on keeping it at ground
potential. I'm sure the UK system is different, as you describe.

Thus, we are required to switch out the neutral in the OP's scenario, which
is pertinent, as with certain types of supply fault on our 3 phase system,
the neutral can potentially move up to 240V away from earth (and lead to a
local 1 phase outlet experiencing a large voltage between the live and
neutral, eg >300V - a scenario I have witnessed).

We have an interesting edge case due to having three different types of
utility earth provision:

1) None - (usually overhead wires, pole transformer nearby) - customer
provides their own earth via rods or similar;

2) TN-S where the earth conductor is continuous all the way back to the last
transformer (which is typically an 11kV-240V 3 phase jobbie supplying
several roads). This is a pretty bomb proof system for underground cabling
but is less popular as it requires more metal in the cables. Originally the
lead serving (sheathing) on the old paper/tallow cables maintained the
earth, but even where such cables still exist, the lead is rotting away and
becoming unreliable.

3) TN-C-S - earth and neutral are the same conductor until the customer
premsises where they are separated.

Case 3 is the fiddly one - although the earth/neutral is rodded down to real
earth periodically by the supplier, it is not fully reliable in the case of
certain faults and could be pulled away from the local earth potential by
the wrong type of supply side fault. I'd have to read the generator part of
the regs to see what to do with this case here, but it's not clear cut for
reasons given.

The motto is of course, nothing should be taken as obvious until the
regs/codes have been read

 

[Jon]

"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:fv1dp51vo014s7clm2a89jjmoknba50src@4ax.com...

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010 01:41:44 -0500, "Jon" <jon8338@peoplepc.com> wrote:

All I need is a dpdt knife switch. If I was cheap I'd get some copper and
make one myself.

I just bought an economical manual dpdt transfer switch rated for 100a at
240vac. I might have to have the electric company disconnect service so I
can wire it in.

Don't tell me now I did something wrong. What?

---
Not just something, two things:

1. You top posted.

2. Unless you plan to install the switch on the hot side of the meter
because you have no mains breaker on the load side, your assumption
that you'd need service disconnected in order to install the switch
is wrong.

JF

There's a mains breaker in the breaker box, but nothing between the box and
the meter. I'll have to have the electric company disconnect so I can wire
in. Am I missing something? I wish they made a hybrid spdt to replace each
of the 4 spst mains breakers. Then I wouldn't need the freaking transfer
box. Unplug the spst mains and plug in the spdt hybrid, safe and effective.
You're not telling me to wire the transfer box in after the mains. There's
no provision for that. They connect directly into the breakers busses.
What? Get my Dremel tool out and gap the busses? What?#!-

 

[Jon]

"Glen Walpert" <nospam@null.void> wrote in message
news:4b9586a2$0$15780$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 11:30:20 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 12:22:12 -0600, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:53:51 -0500, "Jon" <jon8338@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The electric service goes to the house, but I want to run the generator
in the barn. So far I know,

* there are 3 unused #10 wires buried between the house and the barn. *
the electric to the barn comes from the house in 2 buried #000 cables.

Some of the parts I have to work with are

* a 3pst relay with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 90amps * the
above coil also activates 4 N.O. and 4 N.C. contacts rated for 15amps *
two 3pdt relays with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 30amps at
300vac * a spst mercury relay with a 240vac coil and contacts rated for
60amps

Here are the rules:

When the MAIN switch is ON, all generator wires must be disconnected.
When the MAIN is OFF, it is safe to connect all generator wires.

I take it that many of you were irritated with me over my last post. I
don't know how you got it I lived in Virginia, but whatever. This past
weekend I spent fixing up a computer and building a network in my home.
I guess it's nice I accidentally firewalled out my address, but since
I did I don't have to deal with backstabbers like some of you. See if
I care if you find out where I live, but I'm not volunteering the
information.

---
Rather a juvenile outburst, but hardly a surprise. ---

If any of you have any smarts you'll solve the puzzle and come up with
a circuit that works and is up to code.

---
Since it's _you_ who can't solve the puzzle, I suggest that the
statement about who has smarts and who doesn't is misdirected.

Also, I think the decision to not help you is a wise one since you've
got an attitude and you seem to think that not allowing your precious
generator to be damaged should be the circuit's primary function.

JF

If someone has a trace on the guy, report him to his local power
company.

Otherwise he's liable to kill someone.

Or tell me and I'll do the deed... I have no problem being the "rat"

I do vaguely remember he's in Virginia somewhere? If so I can send one
of my redneck relatives to "educate" him.

I think the utility company can and will do a suitable job of educating;
in cases I have heard of where illegal generator hookups were found the
utility disconnected the service with notification that they would
reconnect only upon receiving a copy of the inspection report from a
licensed electrical inspector. How many utility companies can there be
in Virginia? I'll bet that any of them would get the warrant to get his
address from his ISP if provided with a copy of his message asserting his
intentions of making an illegal generator hookup. Then the correct
utility would have no trouble getting a warrant to inspect his premises.

If I were him I would be prepared to show them the inspection report for
the legal installation when they show up. Probably he needs to hire an
electrician to do that; he obviously has not read the NEC.

What? Have you deviants flipped your lid? Knowledge is free. But just try
to get your hands on telephone electronics. It's proprietary information.
There are no books on it at the library. All they show is how the keypad
makes beeps. The rest is secret. How do you multiplex 4 dedicated lines
through one wire? What's the code? But knowledge is free, and nobody's
going to get electrocuted with phone line voltage. So what's the problem
when I'd like to know the information on connecting a generator?

I shouldn't have listened to you guys and just built my own knife switch for
10 bucks. It's impossible to make before break and would have worked fine.

I have a couple of electrician buddies. One of them would probably do the
work for me, but why? Disconnect the service, saw the cable, stick the
transfer switch in between and it's done. Then I also have a service
disconnect for future wiring problems.

I live in Harrisonburg, Virginia. Look me up on 7th Street and I'll have my
brass knuckles to serve you teeth lunch.

 

[Jon]

What do I know?

What don't I know. Obviously more than all of you combined. Is there an
engineer in the house? Then find out where I went wrong with this

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/jon8338/math/

I didn't go wrong with any of it. Then what makes any of you think I know
nothing about anything?

The 240 volts come from two 120 volt signals phase shifted by half a period.
Am I right? Am I wrong? How many of you know that? Or are you just
pretenders?

With 3-phase service, by what fraction of a period are each of the phases
shifted? ANSWER ME. What is the maximum peak-to-peak voltage?


"Glen Walpert" <nospam@null.void> wrote in message
news:4b9586a2$0$15780$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 11:30:20 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 12:22:12 -0600, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:53:51 -0500, "Jon" <jon8338@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The electric service goes to the house, but I want to run the generator
in the barn. So far I know,

* there are 3 unused #10 wires buried between the house and the barn. *
the electric to the barn comes from the house in 2 buried #000 cables.

Some of the parts I have to work with are

* a 3pst relay with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 90amps * the
above coil also activates 4 N.O. and 4 N.C. contacts rated for 15amps *
two 3pdt relays with a 120vac coil and contacts rated for 30amps at
300vac * a spst mercury relay with a 240vac coil and contacts rated for
60amps

Here are the rules:

When the MAIN switch is ON, all generator wires must be disconnected.
When the MAIN is OFF, it is safe to connect all generator wires.

I take it that many of you were irritated with me over my last post. I
don't know how you got it I lived in Virginia, but whatever. This past
weekend I spent fixing up a computer and building a network in my home.
I guess it's nice I accidentally firewalled out my address, but since
I did I don't have to deal with backstabbers like some of you. See if
I care if you find out where I live, but I'm not volunteering the
information.

---
Rather a juvenile outburst, but hardly a surprise. ---

If any of you have any smarts you'll solve the puzzle and come up with
a circuit that works and is up to code.

---
Since it's _you_ who can't solve the puzzle, I suggest that the
statement about who has smarts and who doesn't is misdirected.

Also, I think the decision to not help you is a wise one since you've
got an attitude and you seem to think that not allowing your precious
generator to be damaged should be the circuit's primary function.

JF

If someone has a trace on the guy, report him to his local power
company.

Otherwise he's liable to kill someone.

Or tell me and I'll do the deed... I have no problem being the "rat"

I do vaguely remember he's in Virginia somewhere? If so I can send one
of my redneck relatives to "educate" him.

I think the utility company can and will do a suitable job of educating;
in cases I have heard of where illegal generator hookups were found the
utility disconnected the service with notification that they would
reconnect only upon receiving a copy of the inspection report from a
licensed electrical inspector. How many utility companies can there be
in Virginia? I'll bet that any of them would get the warrant to get his
address from his ISP if provided with a copy of his message asserting his
intentions of making an illegal generator hookup. Then the correct
utility would have no trouble getting a warrant to inspect his premises.

If I were him I would be prepared to show them the inspection report for
the legal installation when they show up. Probably he needs to hire an
electrician to do that; he obviously has not read the NEC.

 

[Tim Watts]

Jon <jon8338@peoplepc.com>
wibbled on Wednesday 10 March 2010 05:33

What do I know?

What don't I know. Obviously more than all of you combined. Is there an
engineer in the house? Then find out where I went wrong with this

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/jon8338/math/

I didn't go wrong with any of it. Then what makes any of you think I know
nothing about anything?

The 240 volts come from two 120 volt signals phase shifted by half a
period.
Am I right? Am I wrong? How many of you know that? Or are you just
pretenders?

Right

With 3-phase service, by what fraction of a period are each of the phases
shifted? ANSWER ME.

120 degrees

What is the maximum peak-to-peak voltage?

Of what - phase to neutral or phase to phase? sqrt(2)xRMS(L-N) or
sqrt(2)xsqrt(3)xRMS(L-N) respectively.


So, you're a mathematician who can handle sin(). Last person IME who should
be let near a high energy system.



--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

 

[pawihte]

Jon wrote:

What do I know?

What don't I know. Obviously more than all of you combined.
Is
there an engineer in the house? Then find out where I went
wrong
with this
http://mypeoplepc.com/members/jon8338/math/

I didn't go wrong with any of it. Then what makes any of you
think I
know nothing about anything?

The 240 volts come from two 120 volt signals phase shifted by
half a
period. Am I right? Am I wrong? How many of you know that?
Or are
you just pretenders?

With 3-phase service, by what fraction of a period are each of
the
phases shifted? ANSWER ME. What is the maximum peak-to-peak
voltage?

I've followed your threads but have so far refrained from
posting, but I think it's time someone other than those who have
replied told you where you stand. You were given good advice and
vital cautions time and again. But you not only ignored them, but
kept responding with unwarranted belligerence. Your attitude
obviously kept others from following up with more good, patient
guidance.

You may be good at math but you know so little about
electrical/electronics engineering that you don't even know how
little you know. Those challenge questions of yours are so
elementary that I doubt anyone would dignify them with answers.
It's like asking a group of A+ high school students if they know
to spell 'apple'.

So do yourself a favor. Go over this thread and the previous
ones. Check the replies. If you don't understand or don't agree
with some points, ask specific questions in a civil manner and
read the replies with a receptive attitude.

 

[Fred Abse]

On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:10:01 -0500, Jon wrote:

nobody's going to get electrocuted with phone line voltage.

Tell that to someone who has got hold of a ringing line!

--
"Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference
is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it."
(Stephen Leacock)