M
Mark
Guest
The generator cannot be started and will not run whenever the main
switch is on.
The generator cannot be started and will not run whenever there is
grid power at the service terminal.
Mark
switch is on.
The generator cannot be started and will not run whenever there is
grid power at the service terminal.
Mark
T
Tim Watts
Guest
Mark <makolber@yahoo.com>
wibbled on Tuesday 02 March 2010 15:00
With all due respect, in this context it doesn't matter if the logic is
"right", the design is wrong. Too many potential fail-hazard scenarios which
are easily avoided.
--
Tim Watts
Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.
wibbled on Tuesday 02 March 2010 15:00
Please don't encourage him.
With all due respect, in this context it doesn't matter if the logic is
"right", the design is wrong. Too many potential fail-hazard scenarios which
are easily avoided.
--
Tim Watts
Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.
D
D Yuniskis
Guest
Hi Tim,
Tim Watts wrote:
dependency altogether! ;-)
Tim Watts wrote:
I think he should build himself a tokamak and eliminate the
dependency altogether! ;-)
E
ehsjr
Guest
Mark wrote:
drops, the genset starts. Some amount of time later it
comes up to speed, and depending on his hairbrained wiring,
the relay energizes from the generator produced power. Relays
do not transfer instantaneously. It takes time for the relay
contacts to move. During the time that the N/C contacts remain
closed, generator power is fed out through the mains breaker to
the grid. Again, that contradicts you contention that generator
power is "not ever" connected to the grid. Some number of
miliseconds after that the N/O contact makes, which kills the
genset.
Or, if there is a defect, the relay does not kill the genset.
transitioning from off to on. You snipped the following:
***begin quote***
When the mains power is restored, it will take some period of time
for the relay to move the contacts off of the N/C position. During
that brief period the genset will be connected to the grid. That
period, no matter how brief, contradicts "not ever".
***end quote***
Transfer equipment must be 100% fail safe. It must ensure that
the genset is never ever connected to the grid. Not for 1 second.
Not for 1 milisecond. Not for 1 microsecond. Not for 1 nanosecond.
NEVER.
His proposed circuit is not only NOT fail safe, it is highly failure
prone, AND it can connect the genset, however briefly, to the grid
even if the circuit has no failure, as discussed above. It fails,
even with no bad components, because the design is wrong.
Ed
Of course it can. Utility power drops, the "killing" relay
drops, the genset starts. Some amount of time later it
comes up to speed, and depending on his hairbrained wiring,
the relay energizes from the generator produced power. Relays
do not transfer instantaneously. It takes time for the relay
contacts to move. During the time that the N/C contacts remain
closed, generator power is fed out through the mains breaker to
the grid. Again, that contradicts you contention that generator
power is "not ever" connected to the grid. Some number of
miliseconds after that the N/O contact makes, which kills the
genset.
Or, if there is a defect, the relay does not kill the genset.
The point that was made addressed grid power at the service panel
transitioning from off to on. You snipped the following:
***begin quote***
When the mains power is restored, it will take some period of time
for the relay to move the contacts off of the N/C position. During
that brief period the genset will be connected to the grid. That
period, no matter how brief, contradicts "not ever".
***end quote***
Transfer equipment must be 100% fail safe. It must ensure that
the genset is never ever connected to the grid. Not for 1 second.
Not for 1 milisecond. Not for 1 microsecond. Not for 1 nanosecond.
NEVER.
His proposed circuit is not only NOT fail safe, it is highly failure
prone, AND it can connect the genset, however briefly, to the grid
even if the circuit has no failure, as discussed above. It fails,
even with no bad components, because the design is wrong.
Ed
M
Michael A. Terrell
Guest
ehsjr wrote:
The generator rips loose from its mount as it explodes, and burns
down his barn?
--
Greed is the root of all eBay.
The generator rips loose from its mount as it explodes, and burns
down his barn?
--
Greed is the root of all eBay.
G
Glen Walpert
Guest
On Wed, 03 Mar 2010 03:04:16 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
refuses to pay.
But a more likely scenario is he backfeeds the local bit of grid through
the transformer up to the local medium voltage, the linesman comes out
and disconnects the faulty section from the grid, proceeds to repair the
fault and is electrocuted. This has happened more than once, and is the
main reason a *TRANSFER SWITCH* is *REQUIRED* BY ALL ELECTRICAL CODES.
Only a fool would fail to use this simple, low cost method of protecting
the grid from backfeed.
Anyone aware of a non-code generator hookup has a moral obligation to
report it to the local utility or building inspector. This kind of
hookup has killed too many people already.
Then the insurance company finds the non-code hookup in the rubble and
refuses to pay.
But a more likely scenario is he backfeeds the local bit of grid through
the transformer up to the local medium voltage, the linesman comes out
and disconnects the faulty section from the grid, proceeds to repair the
fault and is electrocuted. This has happened more than once, and is the
main reason a *TRANSFER SWITCH* is *REQUIRED* BY ALL ELECTRICAL CODES.
Only a fool would fail to use this simple, low cost method of protecting
the grid from backfeed.
Anyone aware of a non-code generator hookup has a moral obligation to
report it to the local utility or building inspector. This kind of
hookup has killed too many people already.
M
mpm
Guest
On Feb 28, 9:45 pm, "Jon" <jon8...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
you?
Tell you what, you hold this wire, and I'll go down the street and
fire up my generator.
We'll assume the utility is off for this discussion.
You've obviously never seen electric disconnects fused together, have
you?
Tell you what, you hold this wire, and I'll go down the street and
fire up my generator.
We'll assume the utility is off for this discussion.
M
mpm
Guest
On Mar 1, 12:19 pm, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-
Web-Site.com> wrote:
Sorry, just kidding. Couldn't resist!
But all you have to do is look around and you (esp. the government, or
TSA) and you know your statement can't possibly be true!!
-mpm
Web-Site.com> wrote:
How did you get here then?On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 10:13:46 -0600, John Fields
jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:45:13 -0500, "Jon" <jon8...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
service
120vac 120vac signal
o o o
| | |
o o------------*
\ main \ |
o o |
| | |
| house | |
| | |
| | |
| barn | (COIL)
--- --- | generator ignition
-/- N.C. -/- N.C.. | o
| | | |
o generator o | ---
--- --- N.O.
- |
gnd |
---
-
chassis
This is my design, it *will* work, I ordered the parts, it meets my needs, I
ordered the parts and it's what I'm going to do.
---
Then you're either a bull-headed idiot or a troll.
---
All I care about is protecting the generator. The coil has to be energized
24/7 to do it, but there's no other way.
---
That's not true.
---
* if the generator isn't feeding power to the house and barn, it means we
forgot to turn off the main switch and we are feeding power into the grid.
To remedy this we can turn off the main switch. The generator will still be
ok.
* if the power goes on it will cut the generator ignition and open the feed
contacts. If the main switch is off anyway, this won't harm the generator.
If the power goes on, the main switch is on and the generator is on, there
will be a time delay for the relay to disconnect, but any problems will
throw the breaker in the barn for the generator, and the generator will
still be ok.
---
I'm sure the breaker on the generator is rated to trip some time after
the current _out_ of the generator exceeds some level.
All bets are off when the generator is run like a sink.
---
I'm not digging and running wires, I'm not paying the transfer box sharks,
and I'm doing this effectively, simply and easily. Did any of you hear?
It's the end of the world and we have to do with what we've got. By the
time 10 kw reaches any lineman, it will be too diluted to do any harm. It
probably won't make it above 1 volt. The current will be sunk into the
consumer grid abyss.
---
If the voltage that gets to the lineman won't make it to above a volt,
then that'll be your generator output voltage, which means your scheme
won't work.
---
I'm familiar with the N.E.C. and I've used it before. However my resources
are limited, everybody is too scared to give me any better ideas or they
just don't know.
---
Nonsense.
Where does it say that just because we know how to do something we
should share it with someone who appears to be irresponsible?
JF
Don't knock natural selection... it's 100% effective ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon athttp://www.analog-innovations.com| 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Sorry, just kidding. Couldn't resist!
But all you have to do is look around and you (esp. the government, or
TSA) and you know your statement can't possibly be true!!
-mpm
M
mpm
Guest
On Feb 28, 9:45 pm, "Jon" <jon8...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
anywhere near it!
Respectfully, if the generator cared about itself, it would let you
anywhere near it!
M
mpm
Guest
On Mar 3, 6:22 pm, mpm <mpmill...@aol.com> wrote:
Respectfully, if the generator cared about itself, it WOULDN'T let you
anywhere near it!
I've noticed lately, that my typing make very simple mistakes like
that.
So, either I'm going bonkers, or this keyboard is complete shit, or
some background process is deliberately changing what I type.
It's been happening for about 2 or 3 months now (that I can detect).
I type very fast, and am not in the habit of proofing everything I
write online.
But I guess I'll have to start, now. Or go get a brainscan.
This sort of stuff really pisses me off.
OK - let's try this again ---
Respectfully, if the generator cared about itself, it WOULDN'T let you
anywhere near it!
I've noticed lately, that my typing make very simple mistakes like
that.
So, either I'm going bonkers, or this keyboard is complete shit, or
some background process is deliberately changing what I type.
It's been happening for about 2 or 3 months now (that I can detect).
I type very fast, and am not in the habit of proofing everything I
write online.
But I guess I'll have to start, now. Or go get a brainscan.
This sort of stuff really pisses me off.
P
PeterD
Guest
On Wed, 3 Mar 2010 15:31:10 -0800 (PST), mpm <mpmillard@aol.com>
wrote:
the generator wants to kill him off before he kills someone else!
wrote:
Look as best I can see, your first version was the correct one. Even
the generator wants to kill him off before he kills someone else!