gEDA suite vs my creaky old Protel Client 3.5?

[Chuck Harris]

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:

On the otherhand, most anybody can find a spare 20G partition on their
hard drive these days. Load linux into that partition, ask Grub to make
your machine a dual boot machine with *gack* 'doze as the primary/default
boot, install gEDA in the usual way, and join the crowd.


But then I've booted into Linux, and can't reach the Windoze apps when a
customer calls to ask about his account balance (Quickbooks), etc., etc.
I reckon a separate cheap-o junk box running Linux is the better
solution. But is it worth doing all that just to try out gEDA? My
original post had to do with gEDA vs. my Ancient Creaky Protel 3.5 Client.

Well, let's see, Quickbooks should be able to run under wine, and there is
certainly an equivalent package to Quickbooks, perhaps gnucash? If you do get
another box to run linux, install VNC on both it and the 'doze box, and you can
run all of the 'doze applications from a window in the linux box over the
ethernet.

Linux is quite good about mounting dos/doze partitions and interoperating with
them.

I run linux as my main system, and keep a laptop around that is dual boot so
I can run vendor software that has to run under 'doze.

 

[Joel Kolstad]

"Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote in message
news:JuKdnTdLTPtOZurfRVn-tA@rcn.net...

Well, let's see, Quickbooks should be able to run under wine, and there is
certainly an equivalent package to Quickbooks, perhaps gnucash?

Does it read Quicken files?

A BIG reason people resist changing to Linux -- even when the tools are
arguably 'good enough' or even as good as the PC versions -- is that they have
hundreds or thousands or hours invested in creating their data and they don't
want to re-enter it all.

Sun was very smart in insuring that OpenOffice could read and write -- most --
Microsoft Office files.

If you do get
another box to run linux, install VNC on both it and the 'doze box, and you
can
run all of the 'doze applications from a window in the linux box over the
ethernet.

My experience with VNC is that it still has various minor 'glitches' where the
screen doesn't always refresh quite right. I mean, for free I'm not
complaining -- it's an excellent product and I love the ability to control a
machine remotely. However, it's just not as 'usable' as either an X Server
connection or a Windows Remote Desktop (aka Terminal Server) connection.

 

[Chuck Harris]

Joel Kolstad wrote:

"Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote in message
news:JuKdnTdLTPtOZurfRVn-tA@rcn.net...

Well, let's see, Quickbooks should be able to run under wine, and there is
certainly an equivalent package to Quickbooks, perhaps gnucash?


Does it read Quicken files?

I don't know, but I think gnucash was meant as a replacement for Money.
I haven't had time to investigate it fully. There is also something called
abicash, IIRC. The target is there, it will be hit.

A BIG reason people resist changing to Linux -- even when the tools are
arguably 'good enough' or even as good as the PC versions -- is that they have
hundreds or thousands or hours invested in creating their data and they don't
want to re-enter it all.

Sun was very smart in insuring that OpenOffice could read and write -- most --
Microsoft Office files.


If you do get
another box to run linux, install VNC on both it and the 'doze box, and you

can

run all of the 'doze applications from a window in the linux box over the
ethernet.


My experience with VNC is that it still has various minor 'glitches' where the
screen doesn't always refresh quite right. I mean, for free I'm not
complaining -- it's an excellent product and I love the ability to control a
machine remotely. However, it's just not as 'usable' as either an X Server
connection or a Windows Remote Desktop (aka Terminal Server) connection.

'Taint VNC's fault. Windows is inconsistant with the way it updates the screen.
The folks that wrote VNC have come out with a new release recently. It appears
to work better than before.

If you could find a good X terminal for Windows, then you could run linux in a
window on windoze. After all, linux's graphical user interfaces are all running
through the loopback ethernet interface. It's nice when things are designed on
purpose.

What I do, is run windows on a laptop that is a VNC server. Then I can keep a
windows window on my linux desktop.

-Chuck

 

[Mike Rocket J. Squirrel E]

On 5/3/2005 7:31 PM Chuck Harris wrote:

Joel Kolstad wrote:

"Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote in message
news:JuKdnTdLTPtOZurfRVn-tA@rcn.net...

Well, let's see, Quickbooks should be able to run under wine, and
there is
certainly an equivalent package to Quickbooks, perhaps gnucash?



Does it read Quicken files?


I don't know, but I think gnucash was meant as a replacement for Money.
I haven't had time to investigate it fully. There is also something called
abicash, IIRC. The target is there, it will be hit.

Quicken (personal finance) and Quickbook (business finance). Very
different files. QB has inventory, etc., what you need for running a
small manufacturing concern.

A BIG reason people resist changing to Linux -- even when the tools are
arguably 'good enough' or even as good as the PC versions -- is that
they have
hundreds or thousands or hours invested in creating their data and
they don't
want to re-enter it all.

That's it in a nutshell for me.

<snip>

What I do, is run windows on a laptop that is a VNC server. Then I can
keep a
windows window on my linux desktop.

-Chuck

I reckon that I do 98% of my work using Windows apps. If I wanted gEDA
so much that I just had to start using it, I would probably run it in a
VNC'd window on my Win box.

But any way the mustard is cut, deciding to go gEDA for schematic
capture and pcb layout would be a big investment in time, not only
because of learning curve and library re-creation, but simply setting up
hardware and getting things to talk to each other, like my wireless
printers and stuff.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR

 

[Chuck Harris]

Ok, I finally have had some time to investigate GNUCash. It appears to be a
functional clone of Quicken, QuickBooks, and MSMoney.

It handles simple tasks like checkbooks, mortgages, bank accounts, paychecks...
It also handles business tasks like payroll, inventories, accounts payable,and
receivable, depreciation, taxes, ...

It appears to be a full, simple accounting system for home finance, and small
business finance. I am going to give it a whirl on replacing my business book
keeping tasks.

If you want to know more about it, there is a full blown help system available
on the web, just google gnucash help.

Joel Kolstad wrote:

"Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote in message
news:JuKdnTdLTPtOZurfRVn-tA@rcn.net...

Well, let's see, Quickbooks should be able to run under wine, and there is
certainly an equivalent package to Quickbooks, perhaps gnucash?


Does it read Quicken files?

It reads QIF files, which are available from MSMoney, Quicken, and QuickBooks.

A BIG reason people resist changing to Linux -- even when the tools are
arguably 'good enough' or even as good as the PC versions -- is that they have
hundreds or thousands or hours invested in creating their data and they don't
want to re-enter it all.

That doesn't apply here, as GNUCash already has that avenue of migration covered.

-Chuck

 

[Chuck Harris]

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:

On 5/3/2005 7:31 PM Chuck Harris wrote:

Joel Kolstad wrote:

"Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote in message
news:JuKdnTdLTPtOZurfRVn-tA@rcn.net...

Well, let's see, Quickbooks should be able to run under wine, and
there is
certainly an equivalent package to Quickbooks, perhaps gnucash?




Does it read Quicken files?

It imports Quicken Interchange Format (QIF), Open Financial Exchange (OFX),
and Home Banking Computer Interface (HBCI).

I don't know, but I think gnucash was meant as a replacement for Money.
I haven't had time to investigate it fully. There is also something
called
abicash, IIRC. The target is there, it will be hit.


Quicken (personal finance) and Quickbook (business finance). Very
different files. QB has inventory, etc., what you need for running a
small manufacturing concern.

GnuCash is designed to do what Quicken, QuickBooks, and MSMoney do, and more.
It handles inventories, payroll, accounts payable and receivable, ...

And best of all, it is a true double entry accounting system. Unlike our
friends with the "Q".

It has many different forms of reports and graphs (of course)

I am going to convert my manually controlled books over to GnuCash this
year.

GNUCash is yet another reason to leave the windoze monarchy.

-Chuck

 

[Stuart Brorson]

Chuck Harris <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:
: Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:

:>> 3. May as well go whole hog (so to speak) and then do a livecd with
:>> the complete gEDA system on it. This is another bit of work, but I
:>> seem to use livecd's more than I ever thought I would, and it would
:>> serve as a bridge to Windows users.
:>
:>
:> Hi -- OP here. I am a Windows user, so aside from the original curiosity
:> about what gEDA has to offer to me vis a vis Protel Client 3.5, I know
:> that it doesn't run under WinXP, but that is not a s.e.cad matter so I
:> have set that little hurdle aside. So . . . whatever the heck a livecd
:> is, it sounds like it might let me eval gEDA. Count me in if you want to
:> make a few.

: How do you know that gEDA doesn't run under Window sex pea?

The last version of gschem compiled to run on Windoze is from 2002.
It is quite old. Other tools in gEDA/gaf (e.g. gattrib) won't compile
for Windoze at all. (Maybe on Cygwin? I haven't tried. . . . .)

PCB runs under Cygwin I have been told. Again, I haven't tried.

In my vision, gEDA is another reason to break free from the Windoze
stranglehold and make a move to the Penguin. If you're an engineer
smart enough to design boards, you're more than smart enough to use
and appreciate the power of unix. Why stick with an OS which places
limits on your own ability to get stuff done? Why use an environment
which doesn't seamlessly integrate power tools like Perl, Python,
make, CVS, etc. etc. etc??? The beauty of gEDA's ASCII file formats
is that you can easily use the above mentioned tools as part of
your hardware design flow. Can you do that with Protel or Orcad [1]?

Stuart

[1] Don't tell me about exporting ASCII from Protel -- I've tried it
and it is broken. Also, the ASCII format is not the native format, so
integration with other tools is far from seamless.

 

[JeffM]

whatever the heck a livecd is,
it sounds like it might let me eval gEDA
Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott

A live CD is bootable.

(You don't have to install the OS on your HDD.)

Usually thought of in terms of Linux (Knoppix is at v3.8),
there are also some Windoze live CDs:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/15/0251249&mode=nested&threshold=5
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/15/0251249&mode=nested&threshold=5#8284714
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/15/0251249&mode=nested&threshold=5#8284679
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/15/0251249&mode=nested&threshold=5#8284795


The reference in this thread is to a task-specific live CD.
There are such critters here (security, multimedia, games),
mixed in with the general-purpose variants:
http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php

To make a CD that boots Linux and opens gEDA
is the Holy Grail to many long-suffering Windoze users
(a bridge between a broken OS and a UNIX-like environment).
It does not currently exist.
As Stuart points out (regarding other areas of the project),
it will take talented people willing to donate their time.

gEDA...I know that it doesn't run under WinXP

Stuart's .ISO is a distribution for the gEDA suite (no OS).

The binaries and installer are for Linux.
In theory, you can build a Windoze version of gEDA
using the source code
(which is available for any such "Open Source" software).
http://www.google.com/search?q=Cygwin-is+from-source

As Stuart says, the last Windoze build is terribly out of date.

 

[JeffM]

In theory, you can build a Windoze version of gEDA
using the source code
(which is available for any such "Open Source" software).
http://www.google.com/search?q=Cygwin-is+from-source
JeffM

That's exactly what cygwin is for, isn't it?
As I understand things, cygwin is to linux as wine is to windows.
Chuck Harris

For the click-impaired:
Had you clicked the provided link, you would have seen
**Cygwin is not a way to run native linux apps on Windows.
You have to rebuild your application from source
if you want to get it running on Windows.**

Had you clicked the 1st item at Google, you would have also seen
**Cygwin is not a way
to magically make native Windows apps aware of UNIX functionality,
like signals, ptys, etc.
Again, you need to build your apps from source
if you want to take advantage of Cygwin functionality.**

So, to recap:
Cygwin is a compiling tool
to build Windows programs from source code.

wine is a reverse-engineered set of Windows APIs
which run under Linux, callable at runtime.

Aside from providing cross-platform possibilities,
they are quite different.
Getting non-M$ stuff to run in a M$ environment
is more difficult than the inverse.

 

[Stuart Brorson]

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott <j.michael.elliottAT@removetheobviousgmaildot.com> wrote:

[. . . . snip . . . .]

: Well, I don't know if buying a Mac and re-buying all the apps I listed
: just to run gEDA is going to be much of a cost savings over updating my
: Protel 3.5 Client to the Latest. It is certainly a lot more expensive
: than just staying as-is.

I never understand the folks who cite the cost of migrating away from
Windoze. If you live in a metropolitan area of any size, it's
quite common to see older PCs thrown away regularly. It doesn't take
much time or effort to assemble a collection of free PCs by scrounging
them from the trash. If one doesn't work, you can use it to provide
parts for another one. Then, download an .iso of your favorite Linux
distribution, install it on one of the junk PCs, and -- voila --
you've got a free engineering workstation more powerful than a
high-end Sun box from the later '90s [1].

Some of my gEDA test platforms were assembled this way. After all,
software testing should take place on heterogeneous systems!

Anyway, cost is no excuse to not try out gEDA on Linux.

Stuart

[1] Yes, this argument doesn't apply to the case of a corporate IT
department. But it does apply to a one-man consulting shop, which is
the situation here, right?

 

[Mike Rocket J. Squirrel E]

On 5/3/2005 9:04 AM Chuck Harris wrote:

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:

On 5/2/2005 11:30 AM Tom Loredo wrote:


Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Illustrator, UPS Worldship, Quickbooks,
Quicken . . . those are my major reasons to stick with WinXP. I'm a
one-man show, not just an engineer.

Well, you can use all those under Mac OS X, *and* gEDA



snip

Well, I don't know if buying a Mac and re-buying all the apps I listed
just to run gEDA is going to be much of a cost savings over updating
my Protel 3.5 Client to the Latest. It is certainly a lot more
expensive than just staying as-is.



On the otherhand, most anybody can find a spare 20G partition on their
hard drive these days. Load linux into that partition, ask Grub to make
your machine a dual boot machine with *gack* 'doze as the primary/default
boot, install gEDA in the usual way, and join the crowd.

But then I've booted into Linux, and can't reach the Windoze apps when a
customer calls to ask about his account balance (Quickbooks), etc., etc.
I reckon a separate cheap-o junk box running Linux is the better
solution. But is it worth doing all that just to try out gEDA? My
original post had to do with gEDA vs. my Ancient Creaky Protel 3.5 Client.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR

 

[JeffM]

Sun was very smart in insuring that OpenOffice could read and write
-- most -- Microsoft Office files.
Joel Kolstad

I wish folks would be more concise
when they post stuff like this about OOo.

OpenOffice.org has a reputation
for being able to open M$ documents BETTER than do M$ apps.[1]
e.g. Using a new version of WinWord
to open a DOC which was created with an older version of WinWord
has failed for many people--who then use OOo to easily open the DOC.

[1]The exception is files which contain VBA macros.