Foregoing warranty rights

[Jeff Urban]

"The rounded corner distributes the inpact load over a larger
area of the case than it would if it were more box shaped."

You are an engineer somewhere ? I am not being sarcastic, maybe you
should be if you aren't. That's the way to think. Look at how some
things, bigger things are built. You might scratch your head and say "
What, did they think it was going to fall up ? ". Well that is exactly
what they were thinking.

I can design simple stuff, test fixtures and all that, apply a signal
and watch the result through a current resistor, shit like that, but I
am not an employable engineer, except by myself and a few others. But
I can think of it from their viewpoint. All they care is get it on the
shelves intact working and sellable. After that the minimum warranty
possible, anything goes under US law. Got to watch it in Europe, their
governments seem to work for the people there. We're working on that.
But the US government works for us.

Think I'm fucking kidding ?

J

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Best one IMHO was the directions I got
with a stainless steel coffee percolator:
"Do Not Use In A Microwave Oven."

That isn't quite so stupid as it sounds. Even though I had a good grasp of
electronics as a teenager, I didn't understand this.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do
if your pocket digital wonder gets accidentally immersed
or suffers a spillage?

It's common knowledge in the electronics industry that if the "soiled" item
is thoroughly flushed in/with distilled water, then allowed to dry (or
forcibly dried), it will often recover. If the manufacturer advises the
consumer to do this, and the device remains dead, the manufacturer could
find itself liable for a free replacement. * In many cases, a customer could
visit the nearest cell phone store and get a replacement in less time.

Nikon once ran an ad about a photographer in India who'd accidentally dunked
his F. He carried it some distance in a bucket of fresh water (which was
then standard for photo equipment -- you kept the camera wet until you got
it to a service tech), periodically removing it to snap a shot! (It's not
clear how the film survived this treatment.)

Almost 30 years ago, while on a canoe trip, my Olympus XA got completely
immersed. I immediately bought another one, but I discovered -- several
years later -- that it still worked! And it still is working! It didn't rust
or corrode. Amazing. Structural plastics -- ya gotta love 'em.

* About 15 years ago, I took my HP 4M into work, because we were doing so
much printing there weren't enough printers to go around. (The company later
bought me a replacement toner cartridge.) As I was carrying it out of my
apartment, the paper tray came loose and crashed on the concrete steps,
breaking. This was around the time of a major California earthquake, and HP
had run an ad telling how another model of laser printer had fallen to the
floor without damage. I pointed out that HP couldn't very well use this fact
as an inducement to buy their products, then object when I asked for a
replacement tray that had been subjected to similar abuse. After some
haggling, I was sent a slightly used tray at no charge.

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

That isn't quite so stupid as it sounds. Even though I had a good grasp of
electronics as a teenager, I didn't understand this.

I can understand this, but anyone born after 1970 probably had their bottles
heated in a microwave and have grown up with one. That makes it likely
that they were taught as infants you never put metal into a microwave,
and although there are some exceptions (they probably don't know them)

In fact, anyone with a computer capable of playing youtube videos or a tv
with the discovery channel has seen the effect of a microwave on a CD.

On the other hand, a coffee percolator is not a young person's device,
only people who drank their coffee before Mr. Coffee, Melita filters,
and Starbucks would even think of using one. I'm sure there are a lot of
older people out there who would buy one but have never quite grasped
the concept of no metal in a micro.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

On the other hand, a coffee percolator is not a young person's device,
only people who drank their coffee before Mr. Coffee, Melita filters,
and Starbucks would even think of using one. I'm sure there are a lot of
older people out there who would buy one but have never quite grasped
the concept of no metal in a micro.

Actually, modern microwaves are more tolerant. You can put a metal tray in a
microwave, and nothing bad will happen.

The issue isn't metal, per se -- a metal plate reflects microwaves as the
cavity walls do -- but sharp spots at which the field intensity is so high
that you get corona discharge or arcing.

I once put a jar of Adam's peanut butter in the microwave to warm it -- and
you should have seen the arcing at the tiny -- really tiny -- bits of
aluminum that were left on the lip from the seal.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 3 Apr 2011 01:11:21 -0700 (PDT), Jeff Urban
<jurb6006@gmail.com> wrote:

"The rounded corner distributes the inpact load over a larger
area of the case than it would if it were more box shaped."

You are an engineer somewhere ?

Yep. Wit out mah spellin chequer, I kin spel just like an engineer.
<http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jeff-liebermann/0/823/151>

I am not being sarcastic, maybe you
should be if you aren't. That's the way to think.

Thanks. The down side of being an engineer is the bad habit of
looking at any product and thinking that it could have been designed
better. For example, the doctor recommended I get some exercise. So,
I bought a bicycle, then another, etc, until I now have far too many
bicycles:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/index.html>
Instead of riding them, I've been looking at the way they work, and
the way the components are designed. I've read some books on design,
researched patents, performed my own repairs, rebuilt a few bikes, and
pondered the logic behind the designs. Of course, I think I can do
better and have designed and built a few experimental components that
I might eventually sell. The problem is, I'm so busy analyzing the
bicycles, I don't have much time left to actually ride them. According
to the bicycle computah, I've only ridden about 100 miles in the last
3 months.

Look at how some
things, bigger things are built. You might scratch your head and say "
What, did they think it was going to fall up ? ". Well that is exactly
what they were thinking.

Yep. However, that's not exactly the way I do it. I think "What
problem were they trying to solve"? If you understand the motivation,
you usually understand the rational. That's often difficult when
dealing with industrial design and artistic concerns. The problem may
have been nothing more than product differentiation, or trying to look
sufficiently different than the rest of the pack. For example, the
rounded corners have many potential benefits besides surviving a drop
test. Rounded corners appeal more to women, while men prefer more
angular products. It's easier to mold parts with rounded angles, than
with angular corners. It may have been simply functional, so that the
iPhone doesn't rip one's pocket or purse liner. It might have been
human factors, where talking on a phone with a sharp edge digging into
one's palm, is not exactly ergonomic.

I can design simple stuff, test fixtures and all that, apply a signal
and watch the result through a current resistor, shit like that, but I
am not an employable engineer, except by myself and a few others.

Welcome to the age of specialization. It's a dangerous place to be as
when your specialty is suddenly exported overseas, you're potentially
unemployable. I saw the problem early. Officially, I was an RF
engineer. However, I made the effort to get experience in many
adjacent fields, and bounced around the company doing almost
everything. Hint: avoid specialization.

But
I can think of it from their viewpoint.

You need to attend a few product brainstorming and subsequent design
review meetings to really understand how things work. Reverse
engineering is possible only if the motivations that inspired the
designs are logical. I've seen designs that were based on faulty
marketing, bad guesses as to user needs, managerial egos, and simple
stupidity. The designs that worked and sold were deemed brilliant.
Those that failed were deemed, ummm.... something else. For example,
the first incantation of the iPod player, was the Diamond Rio:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_PMP300>
which pre-dated the iPod by about 3 years. It was very similar to the
iPod, but instead was a flop. There were many problems, but the big
one as that Apple solved the legal issues prior to release, while
Diamond did not. Diamond spent the initial years fighting lawsuits,
while Apple had already made a deal with the recording industry. You
could not have determined any of this just looking at the product and
trying to reverse engineer the logic behind the design.

All they care is get it on the
shelves intact working and sellable.

Nope. I could easily design almost anything that will appear on the
shelf and be sellable. The trick is to make it profitable for
everyone involved. There's also litigation avoidance, bad press,
timing, reviews, distribution, warehousing, shipping, promotion, ad
infinitum that has to be dealt with. Those are often more difficult
and time consuming than the product design. I recall several product
launches that had to be delayed because of some obscure problem, such
as wrong wording on the legal disclaimers page/book or failure to
display some certification agency's logo with the proper font size.

I've worked on several products where the initial product design took
about 2 weeks. Prototypes and troubleshooting added another 3 weeks.
However, getting it into production, out the door, and into the hands
of paying customers, took an additional 30 weeks, little of which had
much to do with the initial design. In effect, the design was
"frozen" after 2 weeks.

After that the minimum warranty
possible, anything goes under US law. Got to watch it in Europe, their
governments seem to work for the people there. We're working on that.
But the US government works for us.

Not really. If you were ever to do your own product, you'll soon find
that the legal system heavily favors the plaintiff. In Europe, court
costs are paid by the loser, so there's a tremendous counter incentive
to solving problems by litigation. In the US, it's paid by both
parties, meaning that even if you prevail in court, you can easily
lose your potential profits or the company to the legal costs. Product
liability, tort reform, and patent law all currently favor the
"injured" party in the US.

Think I'm fucking kidding ?

Yes, because engineers don't talk or write like that.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 3 Apr 2011 07:34:19 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

Actually, modern microwaves are more tolerant. You can put a metal tray in a
microwave, and nothing bad will happen.

Yep. Some come with metal racks:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Microwave_metal_shelf.JPG>
As long as there is something inside the oven cavity that will ABSORB
the RF power, it's safe. Take away the absorber, such as with an
empty microwave oven, and the resultant standing waves will build up a
sufficiently large field to initiate arcing.

Of course, put anything, except food, in a microwave oven, and your
warranty is torched.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[William Sommerwerck]

As long as there is in the oven that will ABSORB
the RF power, it's safe. Take away the absorber,
such as with an empty microwave oven, and the
resultant standing waves will build up a sufficiently
large field to initiate arcing.

Even with something to absorb the energy, you can still get arcing from
sharp metal edges.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

So--and this is completely out of left field, I know -- what
would happen if a guy put a vacuum tube -- say a biggish
octal one, like a 5Y3 or a 6V6 -- into a microwave and
nuked it?

You'd certainly get arcing from the pins. It's not obvious (to me) how the
tube's elements would react.

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 4/3/2011 5:29 AM Geoffrey S. Mendelson spake thus:

William Sommerwerck wrote:

That isn't quite so stupid as it sounds. Even though I had a good grasp of
electronics as a teenager, I didn't understand this.

I can understand this, but anyone born after 1970 probably had their bottles
heated in a microwave and have grown up with one. That makes it likely
that they were taught as infants you never put metal into a microwave,
and although there are some exceptions (they probably don't know them)

So--and this is completely out of left field, I know--what would happen
if a guy put a vacuum tube--say a biggish octal one, like a 5Y3 or a
6V6--into a microwave and nuked it?

I've nuked CDs and derived many seconds of amusement from that ...


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

 

[Phil Allison]

"William Sommerwanker is a lying ASS"

Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do
if your pocket digital wonder gets accidentally immersed
or suffers a spillage?

It's common knowledge in the electronics industry...

** How would a bullshitting puke like you know anything of the sort ?

that if the "soiled" item
is thoroughly flushed in/with distilled water, then allowed to dry (or
forcibly dried), it will often recover. If the manufacturer advises the
consumer to do this, and the device remains dead, the manufacturer could
find itself liable for a free replacement.

** Total BOLLOCKS.




...... Phil

 

[William Sommerwerck]

What I'm hoping for, of course, is some kewl effect, like
that purplish glow you sometimes see emanating from
the plates of overdriven tubes...

Unfortunately, there's no gas in a "vacuum" tube to glow.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:8vsfiqFm16U1@mid.individual.net...

"William Sommerwanker is a lying ASS"

Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do
if your pocket digital wonder gets accidentally immersed
or suffers a spillage?

It's common knowledge in the electronics industry...

** How would a bullshitting puke like you know anything of the sort ?

that if the "soiled" item
is thoroughly flushed in/with distilled water, then allowed to dry (or
forcibly dried), it will often recover. If the manufacturer advises the
consumer to do this, and the device remains dead, the manufacturer
could find itself liable for a free replacement.

** Total BOLLOCKS.

Phil... SHUT UP.

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 4/3/2011 3:42 PM William Sommerwerck spake thus:

So--and this is completely out of left field, I know -- what
would happen if a guy put a vacuum tube -- say a biggish
octal one, like a 5Y3 or a 6V6 -- into a microwave and
nuked it?

You'd certainly get arcing from the pins. It's not obvious (to me) how the
tube's elements would react.

Ah, I forgot about the pins. OK, let's say we really have too much time
on our hands and want to continue the experiment, so we get something to
plug the tube into, say a pin straightener, with no exposed metal. What
then?

(What I'm hoping for, of course, is some kewl effect, like that purplish
glow you sometimes see emanating from the plates of overdriven tubes ...)


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

 

[Phil Allison]

"William Sommerwanker is a lying ASS"

Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do
if your pocket digital wonder gets accidentally immersed
or suffers a spillage?

It's common knowledge in the electronics industry...

** How would a bullshitting puke like you know anything of the sort ?

that if the "soiled" item
is thoroughly flushed in/with distilled water, then allowed to dry (or
forcibly dried), it will often recover. If the manufacturer advises the
consumer to do this, and the device remains dead, the manufacturer
could find itself liable for a free replacement.

** Total BOLLOCKS.

Phil... SHUT UP.

** Fuck off and die you vile TROLLING pig.


..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"David Nebenzahl"

What I'm hoping for, of course, is some kewl effect, like
that purplish glow you sometimes see emanating from
the plates of overdriven tubes...

Unfortunately, there's no gas in a "vacuum" tube to glow.

So where does that purplish glow come from? I've seen it.

** The blue/ purple glow is emanating from " impurities" in the glass - it
is generated by electrons hitting the glass at high speed.

Most audio power tubes (ie 6L6GCs, EL34s, EL84s and 6550s ) have cut outs
in the plate structures that allow this to happen.

The blue glow will be there when the tube is new ( if it's there at all )
and is not a sign of a problem.

It may be fairly steady or respond to high drive levels - ie when the
plate voltage nearly doubles in magnitude with signal peaks.


..... Phil

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 03 Apr 2011 20:09:10 -0700, David Nebenzahl
<nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

So where does that purplish glow come from? I've seen it.

Impurities in the glass envelope or gas in the tube.

If gas, take an anti-acid tablet and you should be fine in a few
minutes.

<http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm>
Scroll down to:
C. Blue Glow -- what causes it?
for more details.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 4/3/2011 5:05 PM William Sommerwerck spake thus:

What I'm hoping for, of course, is some kewl effect, like
that purplish glow you sometimes see emanating from
the plates of overdriven tubes...

Unfortunately, there's no gas in a "vacuum" tube to glow.

So where does that purplish glow come from? I've seen it.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

 

[Smitty Two]

In article <4d98f181$0$7325$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>,
David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

So--and this is completely out of left field, I know--what would happen
if a guy put a vacuum tube--say a biggish octal one, like a 5Y3 or a
6V6--into a microwave and nuked it?

Everything on planet Earth has been put into a microwave. Search YouTube
for "vacuum tube microwave" and you'll get several relevant hits.

 

[Meat Plow]

On Sun, 03 Apr 2011 19:34:29 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sun, 03 Apr 2011 20:09:10 -0700, David Nebenzahl
nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

So where does that purplish glow come from? I've seen it.

Impurities in the glass envelope or gas in the tube.

If gas, take an anti-acid tablet and you should be fine in a few
minutes.

http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm> Scroll down to:
C. Blue Glow -- what causes it?
for more details.

So even after a getter flash there is still a certain amount of
impurities? I've never seen a 6L6 that didn't have some blue inside
when in operation. It looks as though the blue only occurs where the
electron beams hit the inside of the glass. At least in new tubes.



--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse