For the beginners ? here a bit of electronics theory...

[piglet]

On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.

Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for simulation.
A recent example I had was a three winding transformer where two
windings are bifilar very closely coupled but the third winding is
loosely coupled (because of HV clearances).

piglet

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 7:41:21 PM UTC+11, erichp...@hotmail.com wrote:

On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.

Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for simulation.
A recent example I had was a three winding transformer where two
windings are bifilar very closely coupled but the third winding is
loosely coupled (because of HV clearances).

You should be able to manage that with three strings

L1 L2 0.99 plus L1 L3 0.8 and L2 L3 0.8

We had a thread about something like this a month or so ago, and somebody tried that and it seemed to work.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[server]

piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ti5uj9$1dsan$1@dont-email.me:

On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.


Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for
simulation. A recent example I had was a three winding transformer
where two windings are bifilar very closely coupled but the third
winding is loosely coupled (because of HV clearances).

piglet

\"coupling\" is via the core. Volts per turn does not change because you
spaced the HV winding out a bit.

 

[piglet]

On 12/10/2022 10:52 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 7:41:21 PM UTC+11, erichp...@hotmail.com wrote:
On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.

Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for simulation.
A recent example I had was a three winding transformer where two
windings are bifilar very closely coupled but the third winding is
loosely coupled (because of HV clearances).

You should be able to manage that with three strings

L1 L2 0.99 plus L1 L3 0.8 and L2 L3 0.8

We had a thread about something like this a month or so ago, and somebody tried that and it seemed to work.

Interesting, thanks.

piglet

 

[piglet]

On 12/10/2022 10:50 am, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ti5uj9$1dsan$1@dont-email.me:

On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.


Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for
simulation. A recent example I had was a three winding transformer
where two windings are bifilar very closely coupled but the third
winding is loosely coupled (because of HV clearances).

piglet



\"coupling\" is via the core. Volts per turn does not change because you
spaced the HV winding out a bit.

Agree about volts per turn but the HV winding has worse load regulation
than the tight windings

piglet

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 8:55:14 PM UTC+11, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

piglet <erichp...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ti5uj9$1dsan$1...@dont-email.me:
On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.


Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for
simulation. A recent example I had was a three winding transformer
where two windings are bifilar very closely coupled but the third
winding is loosely coupled (because of HV clearances).

\"coupling\" is via the core. Volts per turn does not change because you
spaced the HV winding out a bit.

Except that it does. Mostly not a lot, because you don\'t change the coupling all that much, but it is the changing flux going through the coil that generates the voltage, and the leakage inductance is the flux that doesn\'t go through that coil.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Mon, 10 Oct 2022 09:30:09 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<d0i8khplkcgi9o26hq7lvbn0i2mqfi71fg@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 16:17:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have the distinct impression current civilization is sort of stuck

or moving backward, I see things here done bad that would not have happened
that way in the seventies... carelessness or incompetence...
you are lucky if you have competent people working for you,
hard to find any here these days it seems.

I blame Microsoft.

Indeed!!!
I got email from my US website hosting company \'godaddy\' that as of tomorrow they no longer support pop email,
and move every email related thing to Microsoft, as \'everybody has a smartphone anyways\'.
I phoned them, after 3 attempts I got a real person on the line
he told me it was for \'security reasons\'...
Well Linux has done better at that .., and no pop email makes life difficult as everything is automatically scripted
and organized here.
Told the guy tell your boss I do not like it.
Just found a local web hosting company and will be moving everything there, Godaddy sucks now.
There will probably be a \'panteltje.net\' for test and if that works OK I will move panteltje,com there too.
So, an other US company shoots itself in the foot, loses me as customer after 25 years!!! by going Microsoft.

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:41:11 +0100, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.


Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for simulation.
A recent example I had was a three winding transformer where two
windings are bifilar very closely coupled but the third winding is
loosely coupled (because of HV clearances).

piglet

Sometimes I prefer to show parasitics, like series resistances or
leakage inductances, as components in plain sight. Sometimes a value
in uH is more meaningful than a K, like in your case of a complex
transformer.

Sloman doesn\'t approve because he always follows rules, and doesn\'t
design real electronics.

We don\'t know what Jan\'s posted image represents. It\'s not LT Spice.

D1-C1 in Jan\'s schematic is interesting, as opposed to just using the
autotransformer and saving parts and diode drops.

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:50:05 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ti5uj9$1dsan$1@dont-email.me:

On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.


Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for
simulation. A recent example I had was a three winding transformer
where two windings are bifilar very closely coupled but the third
winding is loosely coupled (because of HV clearances).

piglet



\"coupling\" is via the core. Volts per turn does not change because you
spaced the HV winding out a bit.

But leakage inductance does.

I\'d guess that the old TV flyback transformers had a bunch of leakage
L. They sure skimped on ferrite.

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 05:56:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Tue, 11 Oct 2022 22:05:11 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
njickhtm3f84iivphu2r8dcd1e4vjskt6a@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 04:47:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Tue, 11 Oct 2022 12:44:07 -0400) it happened bitrex
user@example.net> wrote in <r3h1L.115010$tRy7.76841@fx36.iad>:

On 10/9/2022 6:12 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 09 Oct 2022 08:03:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

How to overcome the limits of boost converters:


https://www.electronicdesign.com/power-management/whitepaper/21252189/analog-devices-how-to-overcome-the-limits-of-boost-converters

This brings me back to designing TV horizontal output transformers and HV circuits...

Maybe be y\'r tesla will run faster...

?

But anyways, nice article, but nothing like designing and building one yourself and finding out.


He jumps to \"in conclusion\" too soon. There\'s capacitances to worry
about, and inductor saturation.

I like to use a dual-winding inductor, like the DRQ series, and build
an autotransformer boost converter, which helps get high output
voltage.


The article this is from calls this dual-winding inductor boost topology
\"novel\" but I find it hard to believe it\'s that novel:

https://html.scirp.org/file/2-1770466x10.png

Just the secundary power in series, nothing new,
But why LK2? Not really needed.. same for LK1 if it is not coupled to anything, or is that the \'new\' part?


They probably represent the leakage inductances in a simulation.

Would here be a market for that: \'leakage inductors\' ? ;-)
I mean targeting simulations using designers.... \"do
not forget the leakage inductors!\" sort of commercial..
hehe

World upside down...

Mouser could sell leakage inductors, back-ordered to September 2023.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:50:05 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ti5uj9$1dsan$1@dont-email.me:

On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.


Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for
simulation. A recent example I had was a three winding transformer
where two windings are bifilar very closely coupled but the third
winding is loosely coupled (because of HV clearances).

piglet



\"coupling\" is via the core. Volts per turn does not change because you
spaced the HV winding out a bit.

But leakage inductance does.

I\'d guess that the old TV flyback transformers had a bunch of leakage
L. They sure skimped on ferrite.

You need leakage inductance in a flyback. Most of the energy is stored
in the air gap.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Don]

Jan Panteltje wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
Jan Panteltje wrote:

I have the distinct impression current civilization is sort of stuck

or moving backward, I see things here done bad that would not have happened
that way in the seventies... carelessness or incompetence...
you are lucky if you have competent people working for you,
hard to find any here these days it seems.

I blame Microsoft.

Indeed!!!
I got email from my US website hosting company \'godaddy\' that as of
tomorrow they no longer support pop email,
and move every email related thing to Microsoft, as \'everybody has a
smartphone anyways\'.
I phoned them, after 3 attempts I got a real person on the line
he told me it was for \'security reasons\'...
Well Linux has done better at that .., and no pop email makes life
difficult as everything is automatically scripted
and organized here.
Told the guy tell your boss I do not like it.
Just found a local web hosting company and will be moving everything
there,Godaddy sucks now.
There will probably be a \'panteltje.net\' for test and if that works OK
I will move panteltje,com there too.
So, an other US company shoots itself in the foot, loses me as customer
after 25 years!!! by going Microsoft.

There\'s the right way, the wrong way, and the Microsoft way. Microsoft
bets on a perpetual population of lazy-bones users.

The name \"GoDaddy\" said it all to me back in the day after it popped up
out of nowhere. The name of my own provider, \"QTH,\" says it all to me
too, but it says different things.
You might want to take a look at my provider, qth.com. It\'s very
Linux friendly as its name suggests. Needless to say, the guy behind it
is a ham.

Danke,

--
Don, KB7RPU, https://www.qsl.net/kb7rpu
There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2022-10-12 16:53, Phil Hobbs wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:50:05 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ti5uj9$1dsan$1@dont-email.me:

On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.


Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for
simulation. A recent example I had was a three winding transformer
where two windings are bifilar very closely coupled but the third
winding is loosely coupled (because of HV clearances).

piglet



\"coupling\" is via the core. Volts per turn does not change because you
spaced the HV winding out a bit.

But leakage inductance does.

I\'d guess that the old TV flyback transformers had a bunch of leakage
L. They sure skimped on ferrite.



You need leakage inductance in a flyback. Most of the energy is stored in the air gap.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Sure, the energy is mostly in the air gap, but it\'s not in the leakage
inductance! You could have near-complete flux coupling *with* an air
gap. The energy is still mostly in that gap.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 17:13:57 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 2022-10-12 16:53, Phil Hobbs wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:50:05 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ti5uj9$1dsan$1@dont-email.me:

On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.


Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for
simulation. A recent example I had was a three winding transformer
where two windings are bifilar very closely coupled but the third
winding is loosely coupled (because of HV clearances).

piglet



\"coupling\" is via the core. Volts per turn does not change because you
spaced the HV winding out a bit.

But leakage inductance does.

I\'d guess that the old TV flyback transformers had a bunch of leakage
L. They sure skimped on ferrite.



You need leakage inductance in a flyback. Most of the energy is stored in the air gap.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


Sure, the energy is mostly in the air gap, but it\'s not in the leakage
inductance! You could have near-complete flux coupling *with* an air
gap. The energy is still mostly in that gap.

Jeroen Belleman

I like the DRQ series of dual-winding inductors. They are bifalar
wound with air gaps, K typically 0.992.

I measured winding-winding breakdown at 2250 volts.

 

[server]

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
news:03b26901-4446-e210-e243-655bb48f6c7e@electrooptical.net:

John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:50:05 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ti5uj9$1dsan$1@dont-email.me:

On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.


Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for
simulation. A recent example I had was a three winding
transformer where two windings are bifilar very closely coupled
but the third winding is loosely coupled (because of HV
clearances).

piglet



\"coupling\" is via the core. Volts per turn does not change
because you spaced the HV winding out a bit.

But leakage inductance does.

I\'d guess that the old TV flyback transformers had a bunch of
leakage L. They sure skimped on ferrite.



You need leakage inductance in a flyback. Most of the energy is
stored in the air gap.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

In \"the core\" as a result of \"the air gap\".

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 12 Oct 2022 15:12:01 -0000 (UTC)) it happened \"Don\"
<g@crcomp.net> wrote in <20221012a@crcomp.net>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
Jan Panteltje wrote:

I have the distinct impression current civilization is sort of stuck

or moving backward, I see things here done bad that would not have happened
that way in the seventies... carelessness or incompetence...
you are lucky if you have competent people working for you,
hard to find any here these days it seems.

I blame Microsoft.

Indeed!!!
I got email from my US website hosting company \'godaddy\' that as of
tomorrow they no longer support pop email,
and move every email related thing to Microsoft, as \'everybody has a
smartphone anyways\'.
I phoned them, after 3 attempts I got a real person on the line
he told me it was for \'security reasons\'...
Well Linux has done better at that .., and no pop email makes life
difficult as everything is automatically scripted
and organized here.
Told the guy tell your boss I do not like it.
Just found a local web hosting company and will be moving everything
there,Godaddy sucks now.
There will probably be a \'panteltje.net\' for test and if that works OK
I will move panteltje,com there too.
So, an other US company shoots itself in the foot, loses me as customer
after 25 years!!! by going Microsoft.

There\'s the right way, the wrong way, and the Microsoft way. Microsoft
bets on a perpetual population of lazy-bones users.

The name \"GoDaddy\" said it all to me back in the day after it popped up
out of nowhere. The name of my own provider, \"QTH,\" says it all to me
too, but it says different things.
You might want to take a look at my provider, qth.com. It\'s very
Linux friendly as its name suggests. Needless to say, the guy behind it
is a ham.

Danke,

Thank you very much, simple and logical list of options on qth.com!
I will check it out, probably ask them a few things.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2022-10-12 16:53, Phil Hobbs wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:50:05 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ti5uj9$1dsan$1@dont-email.me:

On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.


Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for
simulation. A recent example I had was a three winding transformer
where two windings are bifilar very closely coupled but the third
winding is loosely coupled (because of HV clearances).

piglet



\"coupling\" is via the core.  Volts per turn does not change because you
spaced the HV winding out a bit.

But leakage inductance does.

I\'d guess that the old TV flyback transformers had a bunch of leakage
L. They sure skimped on ferrite.



You need leakage inductance in a flyback.  Most of the energy is
stored in the air gap.


Sure, the energy is mostly in the air gap, but it\'s not in the leakage
inductance! You could have near-complete flux coupling *with* an air
gap. The energy is still mostly in that gap.

The two aren\'t identical, but they\'re sure related.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
news:03b26901-4446-e210-e243-655bb48f6c7e@electrooptical.net:

John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:50:05 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ti5uj9$1dsan$1@dont-email.me:

On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.


Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for
simulation. A recent example I had was a three winding
transformer where two windings are bifilar very closely coupled
but the third winding is loosely coupled (because of HV
clearances).

piglet



\"coupling\" is via the core. Volts per turn does not change
because you spaced the HV winding out a bit.

But leakage inductance does.

I\'d guess that the old TV flyback transformers had a bunch of
leakage L. They sure skimped on ferrite.



You need leakage inductance in a flyback. Most of the energy is
stored in the air gap.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


In \"the core\" as a result of \"the air gap\".

Nope, in the air gap itself.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[piglet]

On 12/10/2022 9:02 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
news:03b26901-4446-e210-e243-655bb48f6c7e@electrooptical.net:

John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:50:05 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ti5uj9$1dsan$1@dont-email.me:

On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.


Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for
simulation. A recent example I had was a three winding
transformer where two windings are bifilar very closely coupled
but the third winding is loosely coupled (because of HV
clearances).

piglet



\"coupling\" is via the core.  Volts per turn does not change
because you spaced the HV winding out a bit.

But leakage inductance does.

I\'d guess that the old TV flyback transformers had a bunch of
leakage L. They sure skimped on ferrite.



You need leakage inductance in a flyback.  Most of the energy is
stored in the air gap.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


   In \"the core\" as a result of \"the air gap\".


Nope, in the air gap itself.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Not forgetting that in ferrite cores the air gap is distributed inside
the core as part of the ferrite mix.

piglet

 

[Phil Hobbs]

piglet wrote:

On 12/10/2022 9:02 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
news:03b26901-4446-e210-e243-655bb48f6c7e@electrooptical.net:

John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:50:05 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ti5uj9$1dsan$1@dont-email.me:

On 12/10/2022 6:28 am, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

You don\'t add an extra inductor.


Except when it makes sense to explicitly add the leakage for
simulation. A recent example I had was a three winding
transformer where two windings are bifilar very closely coupled
but the third winding is loosely coupled (because of HV
clearances).

piglet



\"coupling\" is via the core.  Volts per turn does not change
because you spaced the HV winding out a bit.

But leakage inductance does.

I\'d guess that the old TV flyback transformers had a bunch of
leakage L. They sure skimped on ferrite.



You need leakage inductance in a flyback.  Most of the energy is
stored in the air gap.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


   In \"the core\" as a result of \"the air gap\".


Nope, in the air gap itself.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


Not forgetting that in ferrite cores the air gap is distributed inside
the core as part of the ferrite mix.

piglet

Depends. A TV flyback runs at the horizontal scan frequency (15750 Hz
or thereabouts), so core losses are less of an issue.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com