Flashing LED a power sucker?

J

Jack

Guest
Hi.
Just recently, used a ~12volt integrated-flashing red LED as an indicator on
a simple open-door sensor: door opens, contacts send a ground to the LED,
completes the circuit to a common 9 volt alkaline battery.

Problem I'm running into is that the LED is a fast drain on the 9 volt
battery. I tried using a 500 ohm resistor to increase the resistance
without drastically diminishing the light intensity. That kinda works but
still only allows about 36 hours at a steady flash rate before the battery
is dead.

Any suggestions to improve the endurance is appreciated.
Jack
 
If you still can get one:
National Semiconductor LM3909N
Fritz
 
"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> schreef in bericht
news:89djd.93807$df2.76133@edtnps89...
"petrus bitbyter" <p.kralt@reducespamforchello.nl> wrote in message
news:C_cjd.23049$t2.18919@amsnews05.chello.com...

"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> schreef in bericht
news:72cjd.92791$df2.15227@edtnps89...
Hi.
Just recently, used a ~12volt integrated-flashing red LED as an
indicator on a simple open-door sensor: door opens, contacts send a
ground to the LED, completes the circuit to a common 9 volt alkaline
battery.

Problem I'm running into is that the LED is a fast drain on the 9 volt
battery. I tried using a 500 ohm resistor to increase the resistance
without drastically diminishing the light intensity. That kinda works
but still only allows about 36 hours at a steady flash rate before the
battery is dead.

Any suggestions to improve the endurance is appreciated.
Jack


Don't know what flasher you have but there is something inside that makes
the LED flash. If its meant for a 12V supply I may not be designed to
run on low power. So a part of the available power may be used to make
the flash. (Even then the flashing LED will be more economical then a
continuous powered LED but nevertheless too powerhungry for your
applicaton.) The resistor you mentioned will help to reduce
powerconsumption but it will reduce the lightproduction more. Other and
better ways are using very low power elecronics and reducing flashrate
and -duration. As I doubt you can modify the flasher at hand, you may as
well dump it and build your own flasher from scratch. It makes no sense
to reinvent the - er - broom, so google for "led flasher schematic" to
find a bucket full of LED flasher designs.

petrus bitbyter


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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Well, thanks.
Seems a shame to toss out the nifty little compact display packages I
made. How about using a 120 vac ~ 9 vdc plugin converter (the type used
for toys, radios, etc.)? Can I just substitute the 9 volt battery with
the converter? If so, are they usually regulated to prevent toasting the
flasher led?
Anyway, I have bunch of those saying around home ..and there is an ac
outlet nearby.
Jack
Click to expand...
Jack,

Had the impression you required a battery powered solution. If not, a
wallwart that produces let's say 8-12VDC will be all you need. That 9V
converter you mentioned will do fine and be cheaper on the (not so very)
long run. You wrote that the flasher(s) were meant to run on about 12V. Even
if the voltage is not exactly 9V, it will not give a problem. Only
unregulated power converters will have pretty high voltages when they feel
little or no load. If you have to use one you'd better add a series resistor
but I'd opt for a regulated one.

petrus bitbyter




---
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"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote:


Any suggestions to improve the endurance is appreciated.
Jack
Click to expand...

If you want a battery to last longer you :-

Use a high efficiency LED and reduce the drive current as much as possible.

Turn the LED on for as little time as possible.

Waste as little energy as possible. A 9v battery driving a 2v LED means
7/9ths of the battery energy is wasted.

A LED running at 10mA and 5% duty cycle driven by a suitable micropower
pulsing circuit should last around 6 months on a pair of AA alkaline cells
for example.
 
"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> schreef in bericht
news:Yurjd.122611$9b.64388@edtnps84...
"petrus bitbyter" <p.kralt@reducespamforchello.nl> wrote in message
news:2gejd.24081$t2.8428@amsnews05.chello.com...

"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> schreef in bericht
news:89djd.93807$df2.76133@edtnps89...
"petrus bitbyter" <p.kralt@reducespamforchello.nl> wrote in message
news:C_cjd.23049$t2.18919@amsnews05.chello.com...

"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> schreef in bericht
news:72cjd.92791$df2.15227@edtnps89...
Hi.
Just recently, used a ~12volt integrated-flashing red LED as an
indicator on a simple open-door sensor: door opens, contacts send a
ground to the LED, completes the circuit to a common 9 volt alkaline
battery.

Problem I'm running into is that the LED is a fast drain on the 9 volt
battery. I tried using a 500 ohm resistor to increase the resistance
without drastically diminishing the light intensity. That kinda works
but still only allows about 36 hours at a steady flash rate before the
battery is dead.

Any suggestions to improve the endurance is appreciated.
Jack


Don't know what flasher you have but there is something inside that
makes the LED flash. If its meant for a 12V supply I may not be
designed to run on low power. So a part of the available power may be
used to make the flash. (Even then the flashing LED will be more
economical then a continuous powered LED but nevertheless too
powerhungry for your applicaton.) The resistor you mentioned will help
to reduce powerconsumption but it will reduce the lightproduction more.
Other and better ways are using very low power elecronics and reducing
flashrate and -duration. As I doubt you can modify the flasher at hand,
you may as well dump it and build your own flasher from scratch. It
makes no sense to reinvent the - er - broom, so google for "led flasher
schematic" to find a bucket full of LED flasher designs.

petrus bitbyter


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.786 / Virus Database: 532 - Release Date: 30-10-2004


Well, thanks.
Seems a shame to toss out the nifty little compact display packages I
made. How about using a 120 vac ~ 9 vdc plugin converter (the type used
for toys, radios, etc.)? Can I just substitute the 9 volt battery with
the converter? If so, are they usually regulated to prevent toasting the
flasher led?
Anyway, I have bunch of those saying around home ..and there is an ac
outlet nearby.
Jack



Jack,

Had the impression you required a battery powered solution. If not, a
wallwart that produces let's say 8-12VDC will be all you need. That 9V
converter you mentioned will do fine and be cheaper on the (not so very)
long run. You wrote that the flasher(s) were meant to run on about 12V.
Even if the voltage is not exactly 9V, it will not give a problem. Only
unregulated power converters will have pretty high voltages when they
feel little or no load. If you have to use one you'd better add a series
resistor but I'd opt for a regulated one.

petrus bitbyter

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.786 / Virus Database: 532 - Release Date: 30-10-2004


Thanks.
A 9 volt battery supply would have been convenient but I can live with the
adaptor as a wall plug is near by.

My other indicator LED's are for a somewhat different app. They are used
as [fake] "alarm-activated" flashers mounted above an outside door in 2
locations, and wired in parallel back to a small switch also fed from a 9
volt battery hidden in a closet. That application is more important as
the LED has to flash continuously for up to 2 weeks when we leave for
holidays, etc. ..and of course it won't last that long.

So it sounds like I either have to use the suggestion of building a
flasher circuit with descrete components (to control the draw) _or_ find
a way of rewiring a lead from the same converter to supply this setup also
_or_ simply find an electrical outlet nearby and wire another converter to
the "alarm" LED ???

BTW, the specs on the blinking LED's: 5~12vdc

Jack
Click to expand...
That blinking LED assemblies are apparently not designed with power savings
in mind. The only thing you can do is using a lower battery voltage. Let's
say 6V or four penlights in series. They contain more energy and waist less
then a 9V battery.

The better way is looking for LED flasher schematics on the net. Some
designs runs for months on one or two penlights. Check out
http://www.discovercircuits.com/PDF-FILES/ac14fls.pdf
for instance.

petrus bitbyter



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"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote in message
news:72cjd.92791$df2.15227@edtnps89...
Hi.
Just recently, used a ~12volt integrated-flashing red LED as an
indicator on
a simple open-door sensor: door opens, contacts send a ground to the
LED,
completes the circuit to a common 9 volt alkaline battery.

Problem I'm running into is that the LED is a fast drain on the 9 volt
battery. I tried using a 500 ohm resistor to increase the resistance
without drastically diminishing the light intensity. That kinda works
but
still only allows about 36 hours at a steady flash rate before the
battery
is dead.

Any suggestions to improve the endurance is appreciated.
Jack
Click to expand...
Here are some very low current flashers.

http://www.discovercircuits.com/L/lite-flash.htm

http://www.discovercircuits.com/PDF-FILES/3vledfs1.pdf
For a different flash rate, change 0.68 uF capacitor value.

http://www.discovercircuits.com/PDF-FILES/badgfls1.pdf
 
"Fritz Wue" <Friedrich.Wue@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:cmjil3$q2q$03$1@news.t-online.com...
If you still can get one:
National Semiconductor LM3909N
Fritz
Click to expand...
They're no longer available. Besides, he wants it for 12V.
 
"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote in message
news:72cjd.92791$df2.15227@edtnps89...
Hi.
Just recently, used a ~12volt integrated-flashing red LED as an
indicator on
a simple open-door sensor: door opens, contacts send a ground to the
LED,
completes the circuit to a common 9 volt alkaline battery.

Problem I'm running into is that the LED is a fast drain on the 9 volt
battery. I tried using a 500 ohm resistor to increase the resistance
without drastically diminishing the light intensity. That kinda works
but
still only allows about 36 hours at a steady flash rate before the
battery
is dead.

Any suggestions to improve the endurance is appreciated.
Jack
Click to expand...
This one will probably be less hassle since there's already a 12V
version.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/page5.htm#flash2.gi
f
 
"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote in message news:<72cjd.92791$df2.15227@edtnps89>...
Hi.
Just recently, used a ~12volt integrated-flashing red LED as an indicator on
a simple open-door sensor: door opens, contacts send a ground to the LED,
completes the circuit to a common 9 volt alkaline battery.

Problem I'm running into is that the LED is a fast drain on the 9 volt
battery. I tried using a 500 ohm resistor to increase the resistance
without drastically diminishing the light intensity. That kinda works but
still only allows about 36 hours at a steady flash rate before the battery
is dead.
Click to expand...
Who made the LED? I'm sure there's a datasheet specifying the current
drain.

Seeing as it's apparently a 12V unit, probably for some automotive
application, current drain could be 10 or 20 mA. 20mA * 36 hours = 720 mAH,
which is about the capacity of a 9V battery.

If you instead used a LM3909 type flasher, average current drain would
be measured at way less than a mA, and battery life on a alkaline D
cell would be measured in years. LM3909's aren't made anymore, but
a discrete de-integration is illustrated at

http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/LM3909.html

Tim.
 
"Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote in message news:<10p2verqat865d6@corp.supernews.com>...
There's no point in trying to 'build' a 3909 from scratch to gain its
advantages, because the low voltage advantage doesn't apply in this case
since the OP could use any battery he wants, including 9V.
Click to expand...
In any event, a 9V battery is quite mismatched to the load in this case
(a LED with Vf around 1.5V). This guarantees an efficiency less
than 20%, because 80% of the power will go into heat in a current-
limiting resistor. Unless you do something funky like use a switching power
supply... If he could truly use any battery he wanted, he'd put in
a RTG and he wouldn't have any complaints about the battery lifetime!

(Note that a LM3909 is a switched-capacitor supply in itself...)

Tim.
 
"Tim Shoppa" <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message
news:bec993c8.0411080530.4b49f849@posting.google.com...
"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote in message
news:<72cjd.92791$df2.15227@edtnps89>...
Hi.
Just recently, used a ~12volt integrated-flashing red LED as an
indicator on
a simple open-door sensor: door opens, contacts send a ground to
the LED,
completes the circuit to a common 9 volt alkaline battery.

Problem I'm running into is that the LED is a fast drain on the 9
volt
battery. I tried using a 500 ohm resistor to increase the
resistance
without drastically diminishing the light intensity. That kinda
works but
still only allows about 36 hours at a steady flash rate before the
battery
is dead.

Who made the LED? I'm sure there's a datasheet specifying the current
drain.

Seeing as it's apparently a 12V unit, probably for some automotive
application, current drain could be 10 or 20 mA. 20mA * 36 hours =
720 mAH,
which is about the capacity of a 9V battery.

If you instead used a LM3909 type flasher, average current drain would
be measured at way less than a mA, and battery life on a alkaline D
cell would be measured in years. LM3909's aren't made anymore, but
a discrete de-integration is illustrated at

http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/LM3909.html
Click to expand...
There's no point in trying to 'build' a 3909 from scratch to gain its
advantages, because the low voltage advantage doesn't apply in this case
since the OP could use any battery he wants, including 9V.

> Tim.
 
In article <ltvqo0pljrl0i4t6d6cuv427vk3qc834uo@4ax.com>, nospam wrote:
"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote:

Any suggestions to improve the endurance is appreciated.

If you want a battery to last longer you :-

Use a high efficiency LED and reduce the drive current as much as possible.

Turn the LED on for as little time as possible.

Waste as little energy as possible. A 9v battery driving a 2v LED means
7/9ths of the battery energy is wasted.

A LED running at 10mA and 5% duty cycle driven by a suitable micropower
pulsing circuit should last around 6 months on a pair of AA alkaline cells
for example.
Click to expand...
If you need to use a battery rather than a wallwart, see if you can use
a bunch of AA's in series unless you need the compact size of the 9V.

Also, those InGaN high output green LEDs with a wavelength nominally
around 520 or 530 nm may well be bright enough at just a milliamp or half
a milliamp - all you need then is a flasher.
You can make a low current flasher with an LMC555 IC - use the
traditional astable circuit that uses pin 7 (as opposed to a somewhat less
common one that doesn't). Use high resistor values to minimize current
consumption through them, and make the duty cycle high. Have the LED (and
its droppong resistor) go from B+ to Pin 3, and you get a low duty cycle.
You can probably get the total current draw under .3 milliamp if you
really try, which should get the battery life to about 2,000 hours
(maybe somewhat more) witha 9V battery.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
 
"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> schreef in bericht
news:72cjd.92791$df2.15227@edtnps89...
Hi.
Just recently, used a ~12volt integrated-flashing red LED as an indicator
on a simple open-door sensor: door opens, contacts send a ground to the
LED, completes the circuit to a common 9 volt alkaline battery.

Problem I'm running into is that the LED is a fast drain on the 9 volt
battery. I tried using a 500 ohm resistor to increase the resistance
without drastically diminishing the light intensity. That kinda works but
still only allows about 36 hours at a steady flash rate before the battery
is dead.

Any suggestions to improve the endurance is appreciated.
Jack
Click to expand...
Don't know what flasher you have but there is something inside that makes
the LED flash. If its meant for a 12V supply I may not be designed to run
on low power. So a part of the available power may be used to make the
flash. (Even then the flashing LED will be more economical then a continuous
powered LED but nevertheless too powerhungry for your applicaton.) The
resistor you mentioned will help to reduce powerconsumption but it will
reduce the lightproduction more. Other and better ways are using very low
power elecronics and reducing flashrate and -duration. As I doubt you can
modify the flasher at hand, you may as well dump it and build your own
flasher from scratch. It makes no sense to reinvent the - er - broom, so
google for "led flasher schematic" to find a bucket full of LED flasher
designs.

petrus bitbyter


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.786 / Virus Database: 532 - Release Date: 30-10-2004
 
Well, thanks.
Seems a shame to toss out the nifty little compact display packages I made.
How about using a 120 vac ~ 9 vdc plugin converter (the type used for toys,
radios, etc.)? Can I just substitute the 9 volt battery with the converter?
If so, are they usually regulated to prevent toasting the flasher led?
Anyway, I have bunch of those saying around home ..and there is an ac
outlet nearby.
Jack





"petrus bitbyter" <p.kralt@reducespamforchello.nl> wrote in message
news:C_cjd.23049$t2.18919@amsnews05.chello.com...
"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> schreef in bericht
news:72cjd.92791$df2.15227@edtnps89...
Hi.
Just recently, used a ~12volt integrated-flashing red LED as an indicator
on a simple open-door sensor: door opens, contacts send a ground to the
LED, completes the circuit to a common 9 volt alkaline battery.

Problem I'm running into is that the LED is a fast drain on the 9 volt
battery. I tried using a 500 ohm resistor to increase the resistance
without drastically diminishing the light intensity. That kinda works
but still only allows about 36 hours at a steady flash rate before the
battery is dead.

Any suggestions to improve the endurance is appreciated.
Jack


Don't know what flasher you have but there is something inside that makes
the LED flash. If its meant for a 12V supply I may not be designed to run
on low power. So a part of the available power may be used to make the
flash. (Even then the flashing LED will be more economical then a
continuous powered LED but nevertheless too powerhungry for your
applicaton.) The resistor you mentioned will help to reduce
powerconsumption but it will reduce the lightproduction more. Other and
better ways are using very low power elecronics and reducing flashrate
and -duration. As I doubt you can modify the flasher at hand, you may as
well dump it and build your own flasher from scratch. It makes no sense to
reinvent the - er - broom, so google for "led flasher schematic" to find a
bucket full of LED flasher designs.

petrus bitbyter


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.786 / Virus Database: 532 - Release Date: 30-10-2004
Click to expand...
 
Thanks.
A 9 volt battery supply would have been convenient but I can live with the
adaptor as a wall plug is near by.

My other indicator LED's are for a somewhat different app. They are used as
[fake] "alarm-activated" flashers mounted above an outside door in 2
locations, and wired in parallel back to a small switch also fed from a 9
volt battery hidden in a closet. That application is more important as the
LED has to flash continuously for up to 2 weeks when we leave for holidays,
etc. ..and of course it won't last that long.

So it sounds like I either have to use the suggestion of building a flasher
circuit with descrete components (to control the draw) _or_ find a way of
rewiring a lead from the same converter to supply this setup also _or_
simply find an electrical outlet nearby and wire another converter to the
"alarm" LED ???

BTW, the specs on the blinking LED's: 5~12vdc

Jack




"petrus bitbyter" <p.kralt@reducespamforchello.nl> wrote in message
news:2gejd.24081$t2.8428@amsnews05.chello.com...
"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> schreef in bericht
news:89djd.93807$df2.76133@edtnps89...
"petrus bitbyter" <p.kralt@reducespamforchello.nl> wrote in message
news:C_cjd.23049$t2.18919@amsnews05.chello.com...

"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> schreef in bericht
news:72cjd.92791$df2.15227@edtnps89...
Hi.
Just recently, used a ~12volt integrated-flashing red LED as an
indicator on a simple open-door sensor: door opens, contacts send a
ground to the LED, completes the circuit to a common 9 volt alkaline
battery.

Problem I'm running into is that the LED is a fast drain on the 9 volt
battery. I tried using a 500 ohm resistor to increase the resistance
without drastically diminishing the light intensity. That kinda works
but still only allows about 36 hours at a steady flash rate before the
battery is dead.

Any suggestions to improve the endurance is appreciated.
Jack


Don't know what flasher you have but there is something inside that
makes the LED flash. If its meant for a 12V supply I may not be
designed to run on low power. So a part of the available power may be
used to make the flash. (Even then the flashing LED will be more
economical then a continuous powered LED but nevertheless too
powerhungry for your applicaton.) The resistor you mentioned will help
to reduce powerconsumption but it will reduce the lightproduction more.
Other and better ways are using very low power elecronics and reducing
flashrate and -duration. As I doubt you can modify the flasher at hand,
you may as well dump it and build your own flasher from scratch. It
makes no sense to reinvent the - er - broom, so google for "led flasher
schematic" to find a bucket full of LED flasher designs.

petrus bitbyter


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.786 / Virus Database: 532 - Release Date: 30-10-2004


Well, thanks.
Seems a shame to toss out the nifty little compact display packages I
made. How about using a 120 vac ~ 9 vdc plugin converter (the type used
for toys, radios, etc.)? Can I just substitute the 9 volt battery with
the converter? If so, are they usually regulated to prevent toasting the
flasher led?
Anyway, I have bunch of those saying around home ..and there is an ac
outlet nearby.
Jack



Jack,

Had the impression you required a battery powered solution. If not, a
wallwart that produces let's say 8-12VDC will be all you need. That 9V
converter you mentioned will do fine and be cheaper on the (not so very)
long run. You wrote that the flasher(s) were meant to run on about 12V.
Even if the voltage is not exactly 9V, it will not give a problem. Only
unregulated power converters will have pretty high voltages when they feel
little or no load. If you have to use one you'd better add a series
resistor but I'd opt for a regulated one.

petrus bitbyter




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.786 / Virus Database: 532 - Release Date: 30-10-2004
Click to expand...
 
"nospam" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:ltvqo0pljrl0i4t6d6cuv427vk3qc834uo@4ax.com...
"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote:


Any suggestions to improve the endurance is appreciated.
Jack


If you want a battery to last longer you :-

Use a high efficiency LED and reduce the drive current as much as
possible.

Turn the LED on for as little time as possible.

Waste as little energy as possible. A 9v battery driving a 2v LED
means
7/9ths of the battery energy is wasted.

A LED running at 10mA and 5% duty cycle driven by a suitable
micropower
pulsing circuit should last around 6 months on a pair of AA alkaline
cells
for example.
Click to expand...
And one thing that's important in this case is a system that's
independent from the AC power. If the thief decides to disable the
power, and sees that it also disables the alarms, then he's happy as can
be. If they keep working, then he may be deterred from breaking in.

I was just watching the local news, and they said that the city of L.A.
is going to start fining people $115 if they have a false alarm in their
security system. But you gan go to alarm 'traffic school' just like
when you get a traffic ticket. Sheesh.
 
Yes, probably. However, me thinks I could still use a plugin power
converter through a rechargeable battery that would latch when the power to
the converter is pulled..?
Jack



"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote
in message news:10outs9s16q1hc0@corp.supernews.com...
"nospam" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:ltvqo0pljrl0i4t6d6cuv427vk3qc834uo@4ax.com...
"Jack" <jacksimpson@telus.net> wrote:


Any suggestions to improve the endurance is appreciated.
Jack


If you want a battery to last longer you :-

Use a high efficiency LED and reduce the drive current as much as
possible.

Turn the LED on for as little time as possible.

Waste as little energy as possible. A 9v battery driving a 2v LED
means
7/9ths of the battery energy is wasted.

A LED running at 10mA and 5% duty cycle driven by a suitable
micropower
pulsing circuit should last around 6 months on a pair of AA alkaline
cells
for example.

And one thing that's important in this case is a system that's
independent from the AC power. If the thief decides to disable the
power, and sees that it also disables the alarms, then he's happy as can
be. If they keep working, then he may be deterred from breaking in.

I was just watching the local news, and they said that the city of L.A.
is going to start fining people $115 if they have a false alarm in their
security system. But you gan go to alarm 'traffic school' just like
when you get a traffic ticket. Sheesh.
Click to expand...
 
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