Flash retention in uC at higher temps, experience?

[Gordon S. Hlavenka]

Joerg wrote:

The flag is the problem. Unfortunately uC manufacturers have not put
that much thought into the reset routine. It just jumps to a fixed
address and when the data there is corrupt the application is toast.

I'm working with an 89lpc952 (Phillips/NXT) which comes preprogrammed
with a bootloader in the top Flash sector. There's a flag that, when
set, will cause execution to start there instead of the normal reset vector.

You're free to overwrite the bootloader with something else, so perhaps
that facility could be used for one side of the flipflop?

Of course, the '952 also has IAP which I don't think can be disabled...

--
Gordon S. Hlavenka http://www.crashelectronics.com
Vote Ron Paul in 2008! Call 866-737-5066

 

[Robert Adsett]

In article <48548fc4$1@clear.net.nz>, Jim Granville says...

Robert Adsett wrote:

In article <pCV4k.14650$HS3.713709@news.siol.net>, TheM says...

First the Ramtron devices are FeRam not MRAM.

Second Ramtron has also been claiming unlimited writes for some time
now. IIRC the limit was a function of axygen contamination. Apparently
they solved that problem.

Not quite:
The latest Mar 2008 data for the FM25H20 2MBit FRAM, (40MHz) specs 10^14
Wd/Wr,
(which I guess is per Byte?).

Interesting. Their lower density parts like FM25L512 quote unlimited
read/write cycles. Maybe endurance issues have arisen again at finer
geometries?

Most data application will be well under that, but it could start to
bother an execute-from-flash design, sitting in a tight loop.

These parts have very Niche-prices, around 20x that of vanilla flash,
so you really have to need their better features

For small sizes the price premium over EE is small. I use them for the
security of a faster write (the memory is vulnerable for a smaller
window).

Robert
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

 

[legg]

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 15:04:59 -0700, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

legg wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:31:00 -0700, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Tim Wescott wrote:

It's not just this mailbox but also some MSP430 apps at a client. They
predate my involvement there and we are pretty much stuck with that for
a while. We are seeing a distinct pattern where those inside smaller
boxes fail more often than those in larger and more airy enclosures.
This stuff is used in the south where summers are quite toasty.

I suggest you paint your box or faceplate a different color.

Your aim should be to avoid producing temperatures that are not
neccessary in direct sunlight.


Not so easy on an existing product. But from experience it seems the
temps weren't all that different between a black box and an off-white
one. Maybe the off-white one crept up a little slower.

With all other variables constant, a reduced rate of rise means a
lower end-point of thermal burden. Light colours are preferable where
reflective surfaces are not possible.

Changing the material, or material grade to something that is not
clear/opaque to infrared can also have an effect. A paint overcoat
rather than internal pigment (~of plastic). Adding irregular surface
finish or stippling/ridging may also have a beneficial effect.

Failing that, a sacrificial face-plate on the most exposed surfaces,
decoupled physically from the case itself.

RL

 

[Everett M. Greene]

Frank Buss <fb@frank-buss.de> writes:

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

[...]
3' of fantastic soils, 45" of rain a year nice and evenly distributed
all year 'round in a constant drizzle, and everything grows where you
throw the seed, no digging needed. What could be better?

Sounds great if you want to become a farmer I'm living near Cologne
centre, but a quiet back road near the Rhein. Just a rented flat and not
acres of grass and bushes around it, but supermarkets, stores, pubs,
restaurants, theaters, cinemas, parks etc., all within walking distance.

And it's well known that (western) Oregonians don't tan,
they rust.

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:48:34 PST,
mojaveg@mojaveg.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com (Everett M. Greene) wrote:

Frank Buss <fb@frank-buss.de> writes:
Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

[...]
3' of fantastic soils, 45" of rain a year nice and evenly distributed
all year 'round in a constant drizzle, and everything grows where you
throw the seed, no digging needed. What could be better?

Sounds great if you want to become a farmer I'm living near Cologne
centre, but a quiet back road near the Rhein. Just a rented flat and not
acres of grass and bushes around it, but supermarkets, stores, pubs,
restaurants, theaters, cinemas, parks etc., all within walking distance.

And it's well known that (western) Oregonians don't tan,
they rust.

I just spent a nice day today at a fly-in for nitro and electric
helicopter models. It was a nice day of about 64-67F and I spent
about 5 hours in the 45-degree N latitude sun. Horrible sunburn I'm
sitting here suffering from, right now! (I get 2nd degree burns in 15
minutes in LA, by the way. I need the cloud cover!)

Jon

 

[Hans-Bernhard Bröker]

Jim Granville wrote:

It will not be a Direct Flash Cell effect, but more likely a Software
crash, that jumps into a Flash Write routine.

This is one reason why many Automotive designs insist on a FLASH_ENABLE
pin, so that a simple SW crash CANNOT cause un-recoverable damage.

Or they insist that flash-write routines simply don't exist in the
application. A routine that's not physically present in the chip can't
accidentally be run. Nice and simple, really.

They only get uploaded into the controller RAM at flash-update time.

 

[Didi]

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

....
Okay. I'm having fun. I hope you don't mind if I post a few links to
pictures.

It does looks terrific and with all the woodpeckers squirrles and
whatnot
it sounds like a paradise for the camera-hunter I have become lately.
But what about winter? How long/harsh is it typically? (Not last
winter,
I guess we are all still expecting it to quite go away in mid
June... ).

Didi

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/

Original message: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/msg/f1ad55f68483a56a?dmode=source

 

[Joerg]

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 08:36:57 -0700, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:23:42 -0700, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:42:27 -0700, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello All,

After some problems a client saw I was treated to my own dose of what is
likely flash loss: The uC in our mailbox door has become erratic. I
installed it about three months ago and half of the day it receives a
good pelting from the sun. First it began not recognizing some keys,
then it started doing weird stuff like lock cycling. Things it wasn't
meant to ever do. Batteries, contacts and such look ok, reset didn't
help, so that's not it.

TI has an app note about the topic:
http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slaa392/slaa392.pdf

Figure 1 looks scary above the 80C range. Later they presented another
test with a different bake cycle which makes things look better but who
knows.

What is you experience with respect to flash errors on uC that are
exposed to elevated temperatures as most outdoors applications are?
I only have some small experience here with the MSP430. It seems to
operate at 140C at 3V and 3.3V for the several-hour long tests I've
done. But some bad experiences in storing data into the flash at that
temp and even at 3.3V and higher. But I didn't need the darn thing to
survive all that long, either.
Wow, problems within hours at 140C? Not cool :-(
No. No problems, at all. Just that I didn't run them for more than
about 5 hours at a time. Same one ran for weeks, though, at periodic
elevated temperatures. I was just collecting data from a rotating hot
surface and wanted to just stick the whole contraption there while it
stored a few bits of data into RAM. The battery was the problem.
However, you said "But some bad experiences in storing data into the
flash at that temp and even at 3.3V and higher."

Yes, I did. I gather you want to do that.

I haven't read, for understanding, the data sheet you mentioned. I
just downloaded it, though, and thanks for pointing it up. I think it
wasn't around when I looked a few years back and I'm glad that you
pointed it up for me.

Your obvious solution is to move north about a thousand miles.
My wife would absolutely not do that.
Oregon is absolutely beautiful! I've got pileated woodpeckers, 4
kinds of squirrels including a flying squirrel (nocturnal), peafowl,
chickens, guinea hens, turkeys and so on -- tall 60-80 year old firs,
two kinds of ferns, rhododendrons that bloom in succession around the
place, and it looks like a lush rain-forest national forest when you
walk the paths on the property. Lots of acres, 5000 sq ft home, 1/4
mile driveway to the house, view of the mountains, 5 minutes to a
hospital and 20 minutes to the PDX international airport, a 17 mile
well-maintained walking and horse trail that goes from 1/2 mile away
from my home to the Willamette River in Portland, and it cost me $330k
in 2002. Prices are still low, too. Next door has been on the block
for 2 years, is a million dollar home (tax appraisal price) with about
4500 sq ft and 5 acres, and is being offered at $599k now. I'm told
they'd accept under $500k. Neighbors are wonderful, too.
That sure sounds mouth-watering. But my wife likes places where there is
no winter (and now ours get colder every year ...) and I'd have a wee
problem with the property tax rates up there. 2% or more is IMHO
confiscatory. Oh, and I like proposition 13 (prop tax increase cap) in
California because I do not trust politicians enough to toss them the
keys to my bank account.

My place is appraised at $850k (down there, I know that is just a
shack but up here it's 5000 sq ft of quality, showy home and lots of
acres of prime hilltop land) and my property taxes are $4400/year.
Which is kind of high, I admit. It's the income taxes you'll probably
hate. It's a graduated rate, but I think the top rate (which applies
to most engineers, without even asking) is 9%. However, no sales tax.

It a similar income tax structure here in CA with the dems wanting more
and more and more. Luckily we now have a 2/3 majority req for tax raise,
thanks to the aforementioned Prop 13. We also have a sales tax on top of
that and it still ain't enough :-(

However, you may just be lucky that you bought your house at low cost.
I've heard people retiring to Oregon and after buying a $400k house they
got socked with an $8k (!) tax bill. Oh no, not me. One really has to
watch it these days.

3' of fantastic soils, 45" of rain a year nice and evenly distributed
all year 'round in a constant drizzle, and everything grows where you
throw the seed, no digging needed. What could be better?
Ah, you shouldn't have written "drizzle", my wife would hate that kind
of weather.

I did that on purpose. I didn't want to make it seem too inviting.
Actually, I've come to appreciate the constant press of low clouds
overhead and the slippery feel of moist moss as you carefully walk
across your one year old, rotting wooden deck.

In winter it's the same here. We are on a hill and often "in" the
clouds. Our Rottweiler used to bark them away upon approach but he gave
up on that. We found PreservaWood deck stain to hold up pretty well.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[Joerg]

Jim Granville wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Jim Granville wrote:

For more critical uses, Infineon seem to have well-spec'd uC -
their new ones all have Error Correcting Flash, and 125'C models.

http://www.infineon.com/XC800

Also recently added are a series of Transmitter ICs for Wireless
Control, that have Sub 1GHz Transmitters, and Low power Flash C51's
- one targets Tire Pressure, at Automotive temp range.
http://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/promopages/pma5110/index.html


and they also have a 140'C rated variant....


Aha! Thanks. Seems there is some hope. Although I am not much of an
Infineon fan. The reaction time of their CA office can be, well, just
like the name suggests, infinity.

They do seem to be expanding use of Digikey.

Digikey shows 4,153 Infineon items, of which 275 are Microcontrollers,
and of those 46 are XC8xx series.

Do it again but "in stock only". Makes it dwindle down to 1209 parts.
IMHO the guys there need to learn about marketing.

[Just not yet the nice looking 20 pin XC864, or 64K XC878's, or
the Wireless Control ones above ..... too new... - sigh...]

Try to get samples out of their Bay Area office. Did that for a FET a
while ago. It took about 10 phone calls to get one call back. Told them
I'd pay whatever it takes. Nada, zilch. That taught me a lesson :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[Joerg]

Gordon S. Hlavenka wrote:

Joerg wrote:
The flag is the problem. Unfortunately uC manufacturers have not put
that much thought into the reset routine. It just jumps to a fixed
address and when the data there is corrupt the application is toast.

I'm working with an 89lpc952 (Phillips/NXT) which comes preprogrammed
with a bootloader in the top Flash sector. There's a flag that, when
set, will cause execution to start there instead of the normal reset
vector.

That would be a start, as long as the device can still be programmed
after you've chucked the bootloader.

You're free to overwrite the bootloader with something else, so perhaps
that facility could be used for one side of the flipflop?

Of course, the '952 also has IAP which I don't think can be disabled...

IAP can increase the risk of flash corruption but not being familiar
with the NXP devices I don't know by how much. Nowadays most uC can
write flash from within a application though.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[Joerg]

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:48:34 PST,
mojaveg@mojaveg.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com (Everett M. Greene) wrote:

Frank Buss <fb@frank-buss.de> writes:
Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

[...]
3' of fantastic soils, 45" of rain a year nice and evenly distributed
all year 'round in a constant drizzle, and everything grows where you
throw the seed, no digging needed. What could be better?
Sounds great if you want to become a farmer I'm living near Cologne
centre, but a quiet back road near the Rhein. Just a rented flat and not
acres of grass and bushes around it, but supermarkets, stores, pubs,
restaurants, theaters, cinemas, parks etc., all within walking distance.
And it's well known that (western) Oregonians don't tan,
they rust.



I just spent a nice day today at a fly-in for nitro and electric
helicopter models. It was a nice day of about 64-67F and I spent
about 5 hours in the 45-degree N latitude sun. Horrible sunburn I'm
sitting here suffering from, right now! (I get 2nd degree burns in 15
minutes in LA, by the way. I need the cloud cover!)

That's the Irish/Swedish genes in you I guess. Mine are mostly German
but I don't get sunburn easily, I just become darker and darker. Hmm,
maybe I've got some other genes in me that nobody remembers ...

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 03:02:51 -0700 (PDT), Didi <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote:

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
....
Okay. I'm having fun. I hope you don't mind if I post a few links to
pictures.


It does looks terrific and with all the woodpeckers squirrles and
whatnot
it sounds like a paradise for the camera-hunter I have become lately.
But what about winter? How long/harsh is it typically?

The climate here is quite moderate, generally. Winters can be like
this in the higher elevations (I'm at about 900' above sea level), but
this is rarer at the lower elevations in western Oregon:

http://www.infinitefactors.org/misc/images/Snow-Bent%20Trees.jpg

That above picture last happened near my property in winter of 2003.
But I've not seen the like since then.

We used to get a silver thaw in the lower elevations near Portland
almost every other year or every year. I haven't seen one since 1981,
though. And Mt. Hood has lost close to 50% of its glacier mass
balance (gleaned from personal discussions with two climate
researchers -- one who studies mass balance of the Washington state
glaciers and the other who personally treks through Mt. Hood every
year gathering surface ice/snow data) in the last 30-50 years. (If I
recall, there are 11 significant glaciers on Mt. Hood.) I have lived
here since 1955 and my own experience concurs with this trend. So the
winters in the lower elevations of the Willamette valley, in my
opinion, have become less severe in terms of ice/snow. However, I
think, precipitation seems to have remained similar overall. Just the
distribution seems to be perhaps a little more rain in the winters and
less in the summers.

In short, you'd find it a paradise for photography pretty much all
year 'round.

(Not last winter,
I guess we are all still expecting it to quite go away in mid
June... ).

Yes, it's been weird here, this year. There seems to have been a
significant change in the wind patterns over the north polar area -- a
shift in the cyclonal center of mass. Winds and water currents drove
sea ice along the edge of the Russian Arctic (Novaya Zemlya) and a
sort of polynya emerged a bit early off the Canadian arctic coast
between the archipelago, the Alaska border and Baffin Bay. This year
seems to be unusual to me in these respects and perhaps may have
played a part in the somewhat unusual (record breaking, here) weather
patterns we've had in the month of May.

By the way, that polynya I mentioned and other smaller polynyas
suggest furthering of the thin and fairly weak annual ice of late.
This is consistent with the fact that the relative fraction of
multi-year ice in the central Arctic has plummeted, roughly since the
mid-1990s. However, it also seems that this year's first year ice
(brine pocketed) is in an unusual location that may help it survive
better than usually expected -- much of it is farther north than usual
so it might be less vulnerable to melt allowing time for the brine to
expel and the ice to firm up somewhat. Still, while having first year
ice further north means that ice may have a better chance to continue
a while longer that shouldn't be read as good news -- it means that
first year ice is forming closer to the pole which is generally not
good big picture news and the overall direction of decline there
continues.

As more of the polar ocean becomes exposed to solar insolation, which
has quite a different albedo, I expect continued significant and
interesting changes in the energy transfer mechanisms for some years.

Jon

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 09:43:04 -0700, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:48:34 PST,
mojaveg@mojaveg.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com (Everett M. Greene) wrote:

Frank Buss <fb@frank-buss.de> writes:
Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

[...]
3' of fantastic soils, 45" of rain a year nice and evenly distributed
all year 'round in a constant drizzle, and everything grows where you
throw the seed, no digging needed. What could be better?
Sounds great if you want to become a farmer I'm living near Cologne
centre, but a quiet back road near the Rhein. Just a rented flat and not
acres of grass and bushes around it, but supermarkets, stores, pubs,
restaurants, theaters, cinemas, parks etc., all within walking distance.
And it's well known that (western) Oregonians don't tan,
they rust.



I just spent a nice day today at a fly-in for nitro and electric
helicopter models. It was a nice day of about 64-67F and I spent
about 5 hours in the 45-degree N latitude sun. Horrible sunburn I'm
sitting here suffering from, right now! (I get 2nd degree burns in 15
minutes in LA, by the way. I need the cloud cover!)

That's the Irish/Swedish genes in you I guess. Mine are mostly German
but I don't get sunburn easily, I just become darker and darker. Hmm,
maybe I've got some other genes in me that nobody remembers ...

I might be a bit more of a mutt than I know about, too. But I have
the near transparent skin you'd expect of those needing vitamin D
production in their skins in regions north of the arctic circle.
In high school, back when there wasn't an "invisible man" that the
biology class could use, I got trotted up so kids could see all the
veins! Embarrassing.

Jon

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 09:09:13 -0700, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 08:36:57 -0700, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:23:42 -0700, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:42:27 -0700, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello All,

After some problems a client saw I was treated to my own dose of what is
likely flash loss: The uC in our mailbox door has become erratic. I
installed it about three months ago and half of the day it receives a
good pelting from the sun. First it began not recognizing some keys,
then it started doing weird stuff like lock cycling. Things it wasn't
meant to ever do. Batteries, contacts and such look ok, reset didn't
help, so that's not it.

TI has an app note about the topic:
http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slaa392/slaa392.pdf

Figure 1 looks scary above the 80C range. Later they presented another
test with a different bake cycle which makes things look better but who
knows.

What is you experience with respect to flash errors on uC that are
exposed to elevated temperatures as most outdoors applications are?
I only have some small experience here with the MSP430. It seems to
operate at 140C at 3V and 3.3V for the several-hour long tests I've
done. But some bad experiences in storing data into the flash at that
temp and even at 3.3V and higher. But I didn't need the darn thing to
survive all that long, either.
Wow, problems within hours at 140C? Not cool :-(
No. No problems, at all. Just that I didn't run them for more than
about 5 hours at a time. Same one ran for weeks, though, at periodic
elevated temperatures. I was just collecting data from a rotating hot
surface and wanted to just stick the whole contraption there while it
stored a few bits of data into RAM. The battery was the problem.
However, you said "But some bad experiences in storing data into the
flash at that temp and even at 3.3V and higher."

Yes, I did. I gather you want to do that.

I haven't read, for understanding, the data sheet you mentioned. I
just downloaded it, though, and thanks for pointing it up. I think it
wasn't around when I looked a few years back and I'm glad that you
pointed it up for me.

Your obvious solution is to move north about a thousand miles.
My wife would absolutely not do that.
Oregon is absolutely beautiful! I've got pileated woodpeckers, 4
kinds of squirrels including a flying squirrel (nocturnal), peafowl,
chickens, guinea hens, turkeys and so on -- tall 60-80 year old firs,
two kinds of ferns, rhododendrons that bloom in succession around the
place, and it looks like a lush rain-forest national forest when you
walk the paths on the property. Lots of acres, 5000 sq ft home, 1/4
mile driveway to the house, view of the mountains, 5 minutes to a
hospital and 20 minutes to the PDX international airport, a 17 mile
well-maintained walking and horse trail that goes from 1/2 mile away
from my home to the Willamette River in Portland, and it cost me $330k
in 2002. Prices are still low, too. Next door has been on the block
for 2 years, is a million dollar home (tax appraisal price) with about
4500 sq ft and 5 acres, and is being offered at $599k now. I'm told
they'd accept under $500k. Neighbors are wonderful, too.
That sure sounds mouth-watering. But my wife likes places where there is
no winter (and now ours get colder every year ...) and I'd have a wee
problem with the property tax rates up there. 2% or more is IMHO
confiscatory. Oh, and I like proposition 13 (prop tax increase cap) in
California because I do not trust politicians enough to toss them the
keys to my bank account.

My place is appraised at $850k (down there, I know that is just a
shack but up here it's 5000 sq ft of quality, showy home and lots of
acres of prime hilltop land) and my property taxes are $4400/year.
Which is kind of high, I admit. It's the income taxes you'll probably
hate. It's a graduated rate, but I think the top rate (which applies
to most engineers, without even asking) is 9%. However, no sales tax.


It a similar income tax structure here in CA with the dems wanting more
and more and more. Luckily we now have a 2/3 majority req for tax raise,
thanks to the aforementioned Prop 13. We also have a sales tax on top of
that and it still ain't enough :-(

However, you may just be lucky that you bought your house at low cost.
I've heard people retiring to Oregon and after buying a $400k house they
got socked with an $8k (!) tax bill. Oh no, not me. One really has to
watch it these days.

I am glad to hear that some Californians believe that kind of figure!
It might act to slightly stem the otherwise larger flood coming into
the state. I've never seen it and especially never for something
costing $400k, though. And I think I've lived in the most highly
taxed areas of the state so I'd like to know where exactly that
occurs, because it would be an interesting exercise to go check.

3' of fantastic soils, 45" of rain a year nice and evenly distributed
all year 'round in a constant drizzle, and everything grows where you
throw the seed, no digging needed. What could be better?
Ah, you shouldn't have written "drizzle", my wife would hate that kind
of weather.

I did that on purpose. I didn't want to make it seem too inviting.
Actually, I've come to appreciate the constant press of low clouds
overhead and the slippery feel of moist moss as you carefully walk
across your one year old, rotting wooden deck.

In winter it's the same here. We are on a hill and often "in" the
clouds. Our Rottweiler used to bark them away upon approach but he gave
up on that. We found PreservaWood deck stain to hold up pretty well.

I'm finding myself tearing up the decking (the home is 5000 sq ft, and
the decking is about another 4000 sq ft around it) in sections,
treating the wood, replacing pieces that need replacing, and putting
things back... each and every year, just to keep apace the damage.

Designing any structure here means paying CLOSE attention to water
flows. For example, you dare not install a window into the side of
the house in such a way that you leave a flat "lip" on the topside.
Water will collect on even a quarter-inch protrusion and will quite
simply rot out any wooden siding nearby, including cedar. Slopes are
required everywhere -- no right angles anywhere, not even vertical
ones, when working with wooden structures. Concrete and asphalt is
quickly covered in moss and requires pressure washing on a regular
basis (my quarter mile driveway comes to mind and is requiring yet
another long workout from me, this year.) Life grows on rocks, glass,
and on top of life growing on top of life growing on top of life. I
have ferns growing on my trees, and moss growing on those same trees
AND the ferns growing on them!

Moss grows on your car bumpers and rubber insulation, as well. 20
mule team boraxo, powdered zinc, and powdered iron become your friend,
though.

Jon

 

[Joerg]

Ian Stirling wrote:

In sci.electronics.design Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
Hello All,

After some problems a client saw I was treated to my own dose of what is
likely flash loss: The uC in our mailbox door has become erratic. I

Though not directly related,
http://space.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/1385/1/JonesKenyon-SIMS-FSI-archive.pdf
is interesting.
(data retention at 450C)

Server not found :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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[Jim Granville]

Joerg wrote:

Jim Granville wrote:
They do seem to be expanding use of Digikey.

Digikey shows 4,153 Infineon items, of which 275 are Microcontrollers,
and of those 46 are XC8xx series.


Do it again but "in stock only". Makes it dwindle down to 1209 parts.
IMHO the guys there need to learn about marketing.


[Just not yet the nice looking 20 pin XC864, or 64K XC878's, or
the Wireless Control ones above ..... too new... - sigh...]


Try to get samples out of their Bay Area office. Did that for a FET a
while ago. It took about 10 phone calls to get one call back. Told them
I'd pay whatever it takes. Nada, zilch. That taught me a lesson :-(

True, they do need a 'motivated buyer'

- and I'll also admit we do not currently have infineon devices in
active production designs
(but we did use their C517 & CAN devices, some years ago, and have
short-listed their MOSFETs recently... )

That said, they must be doing something right, as I see infineon are
now #1 in Industrial :

[13 June 2008 MUNICH, Germany — According to a recent study from market
researcher Semicast (Northampton, UK), Infineon for the first time ranks
number one in the industrial sector, ahead of STMicroelectronics and
Renesas Technology.]

-jg

 

[Joerg]

Jim Granville wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Jim Granville wrote:
They do seem to be expanding use of Digikey.

Digikey shows 4,153 Infineon items, of which 275 are Microcontrollers,
and of those 46 are XC8xx series.


Do it again but "in stock only". Makes it dwindle down to 1209 parts.
IMHO the guys there need to learn about marketing.


[Just not yet the nice looking 20 pin XC864, or 64K XC878's, or
the Wireless Control ones above ..... too new... - sigh...]


Try to get samples out of their Bay Area office. Did that for a FET a
while ago. It took about 10 phone calls to get one call back. Told
them I'd pay whatever it takes. Nada, zilch. That taught me a lesson :-(

True, they do need a 'motivated buyer'

- and I'll also admit we do not currently have infineon devices in
active production designs
(but we did use their C517 & CAN devices, some years ago, and have
short-listed their MOSFETs recently... )

That said, they must be doing something right, as I see infineon are
now #1 in Industrial :

[13 June 2008 MUNICH, Germany — According to a recent study from market
researcher Semicast (Northampton, UK), Infineon for the first time ranks
number one in the industrial sector, ahead of STMicroelectronics and
Renesas Technology.]

I don't trust such sources too much. What I see in my daily biz is that
most circuits contain tons of American semiconductors, some ST because
they often have really low prices, and passives are all over the map and
usually not country-specific.

For jelly-bean parts pricing is everything. Guys like us spec in a
MMBT3904 and then there are 8-10 manufacturers.

AFAIK the earnings at Infineon are still negative. Not exactly my role
model for a successfully run semiconductor manufacturer. And, of course,
one has to ask oneself why other companies such as National earn a
profit. They must be doing something right.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[Joerg]

Ian Stirling wrote:

In sci.electronics.design Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
Ian Stirling wrote:
In sci.electronics.design Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
Hello All,

After some problems a client saw I was treated to my own dose of what is
likely flash loss: The uC in our mailbox door has become erratic. I
Though not directly related,
http://space.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/1385/1/JonesKenyon-SIMS-FSI-archive.pdf
is interesting.
(data retention at 450C)

Server not found :-(

Oops - mispastee.
http://dspace.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/1385/1/JonesKenyon-SIMS-FSI-archive.pdf

Interesting, thanks. However, the house fires they mentioned will
usually present a whole different problem. The enclosures of most things
electronic are plastic and will have shriveled into clumps that are
beyond recognition. With lots of other debris on top of them.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[Gordon S. Hlavenka]

Joerg wrote:

That would be a start, as long as the device can still be programmed
after you've chucked the bootloader.

With a programmer you can. Obviously, once the bootloader is gone you
can't program through the '952's onboard serial port.

IAP can increase the risk of flash corruption but not being familiar
with the NXP devices I don't know by how much. Nowadays most uC can
write flash from within a application though.

Well, you'd have to be able to, to reflash-and-switch

Writing to Flash with the IAP facility is a multi-step process so there
is some protection against runaway code.

--
Gordon S. Hlavenka http://www.crashelectronics.com
Vote Ron Paul in 2008! Call 866-737-5066

 

[Joerg]

Gordon S. Hlavenka wrote:

Joerg wrote:
That would be a start, as long as the device can still be programmed
after you've chucked the bootloader.

With a programmer you can. Obviously, once the bootloader is gone you
can't program through the '952's onboard serial port.

Or you can write your own little bootloader into your code. That how the
MSP430 guys often do it when they don't like the one from TI.

IAP can increase the risk of flash corruption but not being familiar
with the NXP devices I don't know by how much. Nowadays most uC can
write flash from within a application though.

Well, you'd have to be able to, to reflash-and-switch

True

Writing to Flash with the IAP facility is a multi-step process so there
is some protection against runaway code.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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Use another domain or send PM.