fast breadboard, MC10EP08

[John Larkin]

I was wondering how an MC10EP08 (4 GHz XOR gate) behaves with a slow
input, specifically sine waves from 1 MHz up until it quits. Old 10KH
type ECL gates made decent analog amplifiers, but the EP parts are
much faster and probably have more voltage gain, so I don't know what
they might do.

So I built this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hmq0u1jv03oqgk/Z466_1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opnxfnk79o5lk1s/Z466_2.JPG?raw=1

Yes, it is barely possible to scrunch two SMA cables onto the output
connectors. Barely.

Now I have to pull rank on a junior staff member and swipe the big ole
Wayne Kerr RF signal generator and test it.

I could front this with an Analog Devices fast comparator, which has
hysteresis and differential ECL or CML outputs, but they are expensive
and need more power supplies.

I really need another RF signal generator.





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[David Nadlinger]

On 13.07.19 12:55 AM, John Larkin wrote:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

Doesn't the input SMA connector short that bias node to ground? Looks a
bit like it would on the photo.

Anyway, do you have any particular recommendation on what to watch out
for in terms of ergonomics for SMD adapter layout for that style of
breadboarding? I might include a few for narrow-pitch packages with my
next PCB order…

— David

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 01:18:54 +0100, David Nadlinger
<david@klickverbot.at> wrote:

On 13.07.19 12:55 AM, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

Doesn't the input SMA connector short that bias node to ground? Looks a
bit like it would on the photo.

Yes. That took a few minutes to discover. Actually, it worked with the
bias node at ground, but it did need a lot of signal swing. A minute
with the Dremel fixed that.

Anyway, do you have any particular recommendation on what to watch out
for in terms of ergonomics for SMD adapter layout for that style of
breadboarding? I might include a few for narrow-pitch packages with my
next PCB order…

That green thing is a Bellin smt adapter, sliced up a bit to make the
mouse bites. It would have been better to piggy-back a nice layout
onto a PCB order, but that would take a week or so.

I often do a 4-layer proto board with a lot of test circuits that we
can chop up.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mqspztvu99cmjn0/Z250.JPG?raw=1

My suggestions:

A ground plane and bypass caps are good.

Some grounded mounting holes. 2-56 screws are good power/scope grounds
and power connections. Small boards can be bolted to a heavy aluminum
plate so cables and such don't drag them off the bench.

Plan for straight-line shear cuts to separate sections. Draw lines on
the silk for cuts.

Label every section so you can remember what it is after it's chopped
up. We assign a drawing number to every proto board. Document
everything, including test results.

As you say, add a bunch of adapters for unusual IC footprints: US8,
tiny TSOPs, like that. Include bypass caps on probable pins.

Connector adapters are useful. Ditto short transmission lines.

Thermal experiments can be useful too.

— David

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 7/12/19 7:55 PM, John Larkin wrote:

I was wondering how an MC10EP08 (4 GHz XOR gate) behaves with a slow
input, specifically sine waves from 1 MHz up until it quits. Old 10KH
type ECL gates made decent analog amplifiers, but the EP parts are
much faster and probably have more voltage gain, so I don't know what
they might do.

So I built this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hmq0u1jv03oqgk/Z466_1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opnxfnk79o5lk1s/Z466_2.JPG?raw=1

Yes, it is barely possible to scrunch two SMA cables onto the output
connectors. Barely.

Now I have to pull rank on a junior staff member and swipe the big ole
Wayne Kerr RF signal generator and test it.

I could front this with an Analog Devices fast comparator, which has
hysteresis and differential ECL or CML outputs, but they are expensive
and need more power supplies.

I really need another RF signal generator.

A PTS1000 is super good medicine.

Your protos are so Hollywood.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Martin Riddle]

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:55:42 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:

I was wondering how an MC10EP08 (4 GHz XOR gate) behaves with a slow
input, specifically sine waves from 1 MHz up until it quits. Old 10KH
type ECL gates made decent analog amplifiers, but the EP parts are
much faster and probably have more voltage gain, so I don't know what
they might do.

So I built this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hmq0u1jv03oqgk/Z466_1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opnxfnk79o5lk1s/Z466_2.JPG?raw=1

Yes, it is barely possible to scrunch two SMA cables onto the output
connectors. Barely.

Now I have to pull rank on a junior staff member and swipe the big ole
Wayne Kerr RF signal generator and test it.

I could front this with an Analog Devices fast comparator, which has
hysteresis and differential ECL or CML outputs, but they are expensive
and need more power supplies.

I really need another RF signal generator.

Looks pretty. I just breadboarded a TI LED driver SOT-232-5. Not
pretty, Exacto knifed it, but it works well.

Cheers

 

[bitrex]

On 7/12/19 7:55 PM, John Larkin wrote:

I was wondering how an MC10EP08 (4 GHz XOR gate) behaves with a slow
input, specifically sine waves from 1 MHz up until it quits. Old 10KH
type ECL gates made decent analog amplifiers, but the EP parts are
much faster and probably have more voltage gain, so I don't know what
they might do.

So I built this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hmq0u1jv03oqgk/Z466_1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opnxfnk79o5lk1s/Z466_2.JPG?raw=1

Yes, it is barely possible to scrunch two SMA cables onto the output
connectors. Barely.

Now I have to pull rank on a junior staff member and swipe the big ole
Wayne Kerr RF signal generator and test it.

I could front this with an Analog Devices fast comparator, which has
hysteresis and differential ECL or CML outputs, but they are expensive
and need more power supplies.

I really need another RF signal generator.

Only incidentally related - is the 80s-era Wayne Kerr 6425 LF impedance
analyzer a good boat-anchor purchase?

e.g.
<https://www.ebay.com/p/Wayne-Kerr-6425-Precision-Component-Analyzer-With-AOP-GPIB-Cards/1227128650>

I'd sure like one of the fancy modern Keysight units but I don't have
~22 grand handy at the moment

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 21:23:04 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 7/12/19 7:55 PM, John Larkin wrote:


I was wondering how an MC10EP08 (4 GHz XOR gate) behaves with a slow
input, specifically sine waves from 1 MHz up until it quits. Old 10KH
type ECL gates made decent analog amplifiers, but the EP parts are
much faster and probably have more voltage gain, so I don't know what
they might do.

So I built this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hmq0u1jv03oqgk/Z466_1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opnxfnk79o5lk1s/Z466_2.JPG?raw=1

Yes, it is barely possible to scrunch two SMA cables onto the output
connectors. Barely.

Now I have to pull rank on a junior staff member and swipe the big ole
Wayne Kerr RF signal generator and test it.

I could front this with an Analog Devices fast comparator, which has
hysteresis and differential ECL or CML outputs, but they are expensive
and need more power supplies.

I really need another RF signal generator.

A PTS1000 is super good medicine.

1 GHz. I'd like to go to at least 3, better yet 5.

Your protos are so Hollywood.

Trumpian! As the National Lampoon used to say, "Good taste isn't
everything."

It seems to oscillate a bit at 1 MHz and low sinewave amplitude. It's
pretty at higher frequencies and amplitude. I'll quantify the gain.

I might hack in a bit of hysteresis, on pin 2, and see what happens.
External hysteresis gets dicey when the signal frequency starts to
push the prop delay!

Why is there no Eclips Lite schmitt trigger?


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 7/12/19 11:07 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 21:23:04 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 7/12/19 7:55 PM, John Larkin wrote:


I was wondering how an MC10EP08 (4 GHz XOR gate) behaves with a slow
input, specifically sine waves from 1 MHz up until it quits. Old 10KH
type ECL gates made decent analog amplifiers, but the EP parts are
much faster and probably have more voltage gain, so I don't know what
they might do.

So I built this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hmq0u1jv03oqgk/Z466_1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opnxfnk79o5lk1s/Z466_2.JPG?raw=1

Yes, it is barely possible to scrunch two SMA cables onto the output
connectors. Barely.

Now I have to pull rank on a junior staff member and swipe the big ole
Wayne Kerr RF signal generator and test it.

I could front this with an Analog Devices fast comparator, which has
hysteresis and differential ECL or CML outputs, but they are expensive
and need more power supplies.

I really need another RF signal generator.

A PTS1000 is super good medicine.

1 GHz. I'd like to go to at least 3, better yet 5.

Wire a few in series.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Arie de Muynck]

On 2019-07-13 01:55, John Larkin wrote:

I was wondering how an MC10EP08 (4 GHz XOR gate) behaves with a slow
input, specifically sine waves from 1 MHz up until it quits. Old 10KH
type ECL gates made decent analog amplifiers, but the EP parts are
much faster and probably have more voltage gain, so I don't know what
they might do.

So I built this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hmq0u1jv03oqgk/Z466_1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opnxfnk79o5lk1s/Z466_2.JPG?raw=1

Yes, it is barely possible to scrunch two SMA cables onto the output
connectors. Barely.

I would have expected to see some (wired) via's to a GND backside,
especially on the area at top right and close to the SMA's and near the
chip carrier. Or is this just single sided base material?

Arie

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

John Larkin wrote:

I was wondering how an MC10EP08 (4 GHz XOR gate) behaves with a slow
input, specifically sine waves from 1 MHz up until it quits. Old 10KH
type ECL gates made decent analog amplifiers, but the EP parts are
much faster and probably have more voltage gain, so I don't know what
they might do.

So I built this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hmq0u1jv03oqgk/Z466_1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opnxfnk79o5lk1s/Z466_2.JPG?raw=1

Yes, it is barely possible to scrunch two SMA cables onto the output
connectors. Barely.

I like the way you draw schematics as if it was the layout. But you
must have drilled those non-circular holes with the same auger bit.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 11:02:25 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
<fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
I was wondering how an MC10EP08 (4 GHz XOR gate) behaves with a slow
input, specifically sine waves from 1 MHz up until it quits. Old 10KH
type ECL gates made decent analog amplifiers, but the EP parts are
much faster and probably have more voltage gain, so I don't know what
they might do.

So I built this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hmq0u1jv03oqgk/Z466_1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opnxfnk79o5lk1s/Z466_2.JPG?raw=1

Yes, it is barely possible to scrunch two SMA cables onto the output
connectors. Barely.


I like the way you draw schematics as if it was the layout. But you
must have drilled those non-circular holes with the same auger bit.

Dental burr in my Dremel is the universal tool.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 17:23:22 +0200, Arie de Muynck
<no.spam@no.spam.org> wrote:

On 2019-07-13 01:55, John Larkin wrote:

I was wondering how an MC10EP08 (4 GHz XOR gate) behaves with a slow
input, specifically sine waves from 1 MHz up until it quits. Old 10KH
type ECL gates made decent analog amplifiers, but the EP parts are
much faster and probably have more voltage gain, so I don't know what
they might do.

So I built this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hmq0u1jv03oqgk/Z466_1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opnxfnk79o5lk1s/Z466_2.JPG?raw=1

Yes, it is barely possible to scrunch two SMA cables onto the output
connectors. Barely.


I would have expected to see some (wired) via's to a GND backside,
especially on the area at top right and close to the SMA's and near the
chip carrier. Or is this just single sided base material?

Arie

It's copperclad both sides. The bolts and the edge-launch SMA
connectors tie things together pretty well. The SMAs solder on both
sides.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:55:42 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:

I was wondering how an MC10EP08 (4 GHz XOR gate) behaves with a slow
input, specifically sine waves from 1 MHz up until it quits. Old 10KH
type ECL gates made decent analog amplifiers, but the EP parts are
much faster and probably have more voltage gain, so I don't know what
they might do.

So I built this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hmq0u1jv03oqgk/Z466_1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opnxfnk79o5lk1s/Z466_2.JPG?raw=1

Yes, it is barely possible to scrunch two SMA cables onto the output
connectors. Barely.

Now I have to pull rank on a junior staff member and swipe the big ole
Wayne Kerr RF signal generator and test it.

I could front this with an Analog Devices fast comparator, which has
hysteresis and differential ECL or CML outputs, but they are expensive
and need more power supplies.

I really need another RF signal generator.

I now have a DC/low-frequency LT Spice model of the front-end of the
Eclips Plus MC10EP08, if anyone is ever interested [1]. I'll verify
that against my breadboard next week. I might eventually expand that
into a full device model.

It occurs to me that I can use one EP08 as both an input comparator
and as a signal multiplexer.

The stuff I want to know really should be on the data sheet, or an
appnote. Onsemi AND8009 sort of helps.


[1] when I google things like this, I tend to find my own posts from
the past, in google groups or one of the copycat sites that use us for
content.






--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:55:42 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:

I was wondering how an MC10EP08 (4 GHz XOR gate) behaves with a slow
input, specifically sine waves from 1 MHz up until it quits. Old 10KH
type ECL gates made decent analog amplifiers, but the EP parts are
much faster and probably have more voltage gain, so I don't know what
they might do.

So I built this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hmq0u1jv03oqgk/Z466_1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opnxfnk79o5lk1s/Z466_2.JPG?raw=1

Yes, it is barely possible to scrunch two SMA cables onto the output
connectors. Barely.

Now I have to pull rank on a junior staff member and swipe the big ole
Wayne Kerr RF signal generator and test it.

I could front this with an Analog Devices fast comparator, which has
hysteresis and differential ECL or CML outputs, but they are expensive
and need more power supplies.

I really need another RF signal generator.

I kluged in some hysteresis and it seems to work nicely.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q2hqd3wsnabe5sk/Z466_3.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/26d8pn3gi71984u/EP89_Input_WB3.png?raw=1

Still gotta nab an RF generator and check it over the full freq span.








--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[George Herold]

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:23:15 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 7/12/19 7:55 PM, John Larkin wrote:


I was wondering how an MC10EP08 (4 GHz XOR gate) behaves with a slow
input, specifically sine waves from 1 MHz up until it quits. Old 10KH
type ECL gates made decent analog amplifiers, but the EP parts are
much faster and probably have more voltage gain, so I don't know what
they might do.

So I built this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hmq0u1jv03oqgk/Z466_1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opnxfnk79o5lk1s/Z466_2.JPG?raw=1

Yes, it is barely possible to scrunch two SMA cables onto the output
connectors. Barely.

Now I have to pull rank on a junior staff member and swipe the big ole
Wayne Kerr RF signal generator and test it.

I could front this with an Analog Devices fast comparator, which has
hysteresis and differential ECL or CML outputs, but they are expensive
and need more power supplies.

I really need another RF signal generator.

A PTS1000 is super good medicine.

Your protos are so Hollywood.

Yeah but imagine showing your proto made out of
low end copper clad to the same customer.

It's gold baby! :^)

John L, If you make some sort of micro strip
out of copper clad and copper clad with gold on top,
can you tell the difference? I guess I'm thinking
TDR-wise. (Of which I know almost nothing... if you made
a video/ white broad thing about TDR I would watch it,
and recommend it to my all my buds on SED. :^)

George H.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 17:21:45 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:23:15 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 7/12/19 7:55 PM, John Larkin wrote:


I was wondering how an MC10EP08 (4 GHz XOR gate) behaves with a slow
input, specifically sine waves from 1 MHz up until it quits. Old 10KH
type ECL gates made decent analog amplifiers, but the EP parts are
much faster and probably have more voltage gain, so I don't know what
they might do.

So I built this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbuf1ixgfs8soc8/Z466_WB.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hmq0u1jv03oqgk/Z466_1.JPG?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opnxfnk79o5lk1s/Z466_2.JPG?raw=1

Yes, it is barely possible to scrunch two SMA cables onto the output
connectors. Barely.

Now I have to pull rank on a junior staff member and swipe the big ole
Wayne Kerr RF signal generator and test it.

I could front this with an Analog Devices fast comparator, which has
hysteresis and differential ECL or CML outputs, but they are expensive
and need more power supplies.

I really need another RF signal generator.

A PTS1000 is super good medicine.

Your protos are so Hollywood.
Yeah but imagine showing your proto made out of
low end copper clad to the same customer.

It's gold baby! :^)

I've shown, and shipped, gold dremel'd things like this to customers,
and the reaction has been very positive. I think the gold helps;
copper boards like this get ugly in a week or so.

John L, If you make some sort of micro strip
out of copper clad and copper clad with gold on top,
can you tell the difference? I guess I'm thinking
TDR-wise. (Of which I know almost nothing... if you made
a video/ white broad thing about TDR I would watch it,
and recommend it to my all my buds on SED. :^)

I don't think I'd see any difference on a TDR, bare copper vs gold. I
think that most of the loss is on the bottom side of a microstrip
trace.

I want to be rich, but I don't want to be famous.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

On Wednesday, 17 July 2019 23:23:38 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:

> Still gotta nab an RF generator and check it over the full freq span.

Or take your gigglehertz, split it & delay one of them. Feed into a fast XOR...


NT

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 18:39:40 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, 17 July 2019 23:23:38 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:

Still gotta nab an RF generator and check it over the full freq span.

Or take your gigglehertz, split it & delay one of them. Feed into a fast XOR...


NT

There are small box diode-based frequency doublers.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 18/07/19 01:54, John Larkin wrote:

I've shown, and shipped, gold dremel'd things like this to customers,
and the reaction has been very positive. I think the gold helps;
copper boards like this get ugly in a week or so.

Where do you buy the boards?

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:30:37 +0100, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 18/07/19 01:54, John Larkin wrote:
I've shown, and shipped, gold dremel'd things like this to customers,
and the reaction has been very positive. I think the gold helps;
copper boards like this get ugly in a week or so.

Where do you buy the boards?

I have one of our regular PCB houses, Cirexx I think, plate me up a
couple square feet now and then, and I shear it up. I have seen
gold-plated FR4 on ebay.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics