F&P washing machine playing up after 8 years of good service

B

Barry

Guest
As per subject says :(

I have a 6kg F&P machine and it decided it doesn't want to spin the tub
anymore. I've read in the google archives that some here may know how to fix
it.

Basically, it was doing a load, and then stopped when it came to the spin
cycle. If I power it off then on, and start at the spin, it groans and turns
a bit then stops.

Foolishly, I decided to try the rinse cycles, and now the machine is full of
water that won't drain (well, most is hand bucketed out now).

Now when it starts the spin, it just hums without moving the tub.

I assume some of the motor drive mosfets have probably gone. Are they easy
to replace (ie. purchase)?

Can anyone shed more light on what to check and fix?

Thanks,
Barry.

(substitute "not_barry" with "bnaujok" for my email address)
 
In article <ar6ie0p68uuvrstum8md86rd3vp6qm356l@4ax.com>,
notbarry@optushome.com.au says...
As per subject says :(

I have a 6kg F&P machine and it decided it doesn't want to spin the tub
anymore. I've read in the google archives that some here may know how to fix
it.

Basically, it was doing a load, and then stopped when it came to the spin
cycle. If I power it off then on, and start at the spin, it groans and turns
a bit then stops.

Foolishly, I decided to try the rinse cycles, and now the machine is full of
water that won't drain (well, most is hand bucketed out now).

Now when it starts the spin, it just hums without moving the tub.

I assume some of the motor drive mosfets have probably gone. Are they easy
to replace (ie. purchase)?

Can anyone shed more light on what to check and fix?

Thanks,
Barry.

(substitute "not_barry" with "bnaujok" for my email address)

Unfortunately the mosfets are integrated into a custom module built by
Click to expand...
International Rectifier, and no it is not a standard part.

I know this as our machine died last xmas and thought I'd swap the
mosfets out also. As soon as I pulled it apart "you bastards" was
uttered. Took it to work and the blokes at work also said "those
bastards".

Ours was over 10 years old so we decided to buy a new machine. (another
F&P too) figuring once you get the man out there's 200 bucks + the cost
of the replacement spares - not a good investment on a machine so old.

ratted all the good bits which are now stored in the "could handy one
day" department. Damn impressive stepper motor though :)

Cheers Ray
 
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:19:45 +1000, Barry <notbarry@optushome.com.au> wrote:

As per subject says :(

I have a 6kg F&P machine and it decided it doesn't want to spin the tub
anymore. I've read in the google archives that some here may know how to fix
it.

Basically, it was doing a load, and then stopped when it came to the spin
cycle. If I power it off then on, and start at the spin, it groans and turns
a bit then stops.

Foolishly, I decided to try the rinse cycles, and now the machine is full of
water that won't drain (well, most is hand bucketed out now).

Now when it starts the spin, it just hums without moving the tub.

I assume some of the motor drive mosfets have probably gone. Are they easy
to replace (ie. purchase)?
Click to expand...
Our SmartDrive 603 shat itself a couple of years back. Contrary to Ray's
experience, in our machine the FETs were discretes and readily available. Being
in a three phase bridge config, when one goes its opposite number goes too,
leaving you with "two phase" drive to the biggie down the bottom.

If yours is similar, then replacement is easy. The bad news was that the drive
to the FETs was scrambled on our controller board. A replacement board was
~$160.

Be also aware that the whole DC side is off a full wave bridge from the mains,
so both rails are a health hazard. Makes using a ground-referenced CRO
problematic.

I know how fast the washing pile builds up when the machine breaks, and SWMBO is
usually very unamused. There is a diagnostic sequence for the 603 and its
siblings (and it even lets you pump the machine out!). If yours is one of
those, let me know.
 
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:56:32 +0800, budgie <me@privacy.net> wrote:

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:19:45 +1000, Barry <notbarry@optushome.com.au> wrote:

As per subject says :(

I have a 6kg F&P machine and it decided it doesn't want to spin the tub
anymore. I've read in the google archives that some here may know how to fix
it.

Basically, it was doing a load, and then stopped when it came to the spin
cycle. If I power it off then on, and start at the spin, it groans and turns
a bit then stops.

Foolishly, I decided to try the rinse cycles, and now the machine is full of
water that won't drain (well, most is hand bucketed out now).

Now when it starts the spin, it just hums without moving the tub.

I assume some of the motor drive mosfets have probably gone. Are they easy
to replace (ie. purchase)?

Our SmartDrive 603 shat itself a couple of years back. Contrary to Ray's
experience, in our machine the FETs were discretes and readily available. Being
in a three phase bridge config, when one goes its opposite number goes too,
leaving you with "two phase" drive to the biggie down the bottom.

If yours is similar, then replacement is easy. The bad news was that the drive
to the FETs was scrambled on our controller board. A replacement board was
~$160.

Be also aware that the whole DC side is off a full wave bridge from the mains,
so both rails are a health hazard. Makes using a ground-referenced CRO
problematic.

I know how fast the washing pile builds up when the machine breaks, and SWMBO is
usually very unamused. There is a diagnostic sequence for the 603 and its
siblings (and it even lets you pump the machine out!). If yours is one of
those, let me know.
Click to expand...
I just pulled apart the main box that controls the water solenoids, and
other various bits (ie. where all the plugs connect to), not sure what this
module is called. Anyway, it has 10 discrete transistor like devices
connected to what appears to be a water cooled heatsink!

They are all labelled: Switchmode, Regulator, T2, Clamp, C/B/A Upper and
C/B/A lower. I assume the main drive devices are the Upper and Lower 3 (I'm
guessing Upper is the tub and Lower is the agitator). The board is copyright
1995.

So, I guess this is a discrete unit. Which control board fails? Is it the
vertical board inside this main module with the nice big chip on it?

The full model # is GW603-U.

Thanks,
Barry.

(replace "not_barry" with "bnaujok" for my email address)
 
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 23:07:24 +1000, Barry <notbarry@optushome.com.au> wrote:

I just pulled apart the main box that controls the water solenoids, and
other various bits (ie. where all the plugs connect to), not sure what this
module is called. Anyway, it has 10 discrete transistor like devices
connected to what appears to be a water cooled heatsink!

They are all labelled: Switchmode, Regulator, T2, Clamp, C/B/A Upper and
C/B/A lower. I assume the main drive devices are the Upper and Lower 3 (I'm
guessing Upper is the tub and Lower is the agitator). The board is copyright
1995.
Click to expand...
A, B and C are the three "phase" drives to the motor. Upper and lower are
references to positive DC rail (upper) and neg rail (lower) side of the bridge.

From memory the micro is on the vertical board.

Just pulled the old one off the shelf.
So, I guess this is a discrete unit. Which control board fails? Is it the
vertical board inside this main module with the nice big chip on it?
Click to expand...
That was the area that failed in mine - drive to at least one of the six FETs
was wacky, killing a pair of them. Tracing out the circuit to the point where I
could even follow the drive lines was a PITA. Eventually SWMBO pressure caused
me to buy the replacement board, although if it was the micro then that was
inevitable anyway.

Check your mail.
 
In article <36kie05t3kbg8f7cgt2s782lesmcta303u@4ax.com>,
notbarry@optushome.com.au says...
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:56:32 +0800, budgie <me@privacy.net> wrote:

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:19:45 +1000, Barry <notbarry@optushome.com.au> wrote:

As per subject says :(


Now when it starts the spin, it just hums without moving the tub.

I assume some of the motor drive mosfets have probably gone. Are they easy
to replace (ie. purchase)?

Our SmartDrive 603 shat itself a couple of years back. Contrary to Ray's
experience, in our machine the FETs were discretes and readily available. Being
in a three phase bridge config, when one goes its opposite number goes too,
leaving you with "two phase" drive to the biggie down the bottom.

If yours is similar, then replacement is easy. The bad news was that the drive
to the FETs was scrambled on our controller board. A replacement board was
~$160.

Be also aware that the whole DC side is off a full wave bridge from the mains,
so both rails are a health hazard. Makes using a ground-referenced CRO
problematic.

I know how fast the washing pile builds up when the machine breaks, and SWMBO is
usually very unamused. There is a diagnostic sequence for the 603 and its
siblings (and it even lets you pump the machine out!). If yours is one of
those, let me know.

I just pulled apart the main box that controls the water solenoids, and
other various bits (ie. where all the plugs connect to), not sure what this
module is called. Anyway, it has 10 discrete transistor like devices
connected to what appears to be a water cooled heatsink!

They are all labelled: Switchmode, Regulator, T2, Clamp, C/B/A Upper and
C/B/A lower. I assume the main drive devices are the Upper and Lower 3 (I'm
guessing Upper is the tub and Lower is the agitator). The board is copyright
1995.
Click to expand...
Barry,

good to hear your's has discrete components. FWIW, ours was one of the
early machines put out (early 90's). Good luck with your repair.

Ain't it the truth about the washing piling up? Ours failed over the
xmas break and getting an "expert" to look at it was impossible -
they're all on holidays :(
So I pulled it apart and was disappointed to see the module.
Hopefully our new F&P is also like yours with the discretes - for next
time...

I must say the idea of the water cooled heatsink is a fantastic bit of
thinking. I've heard that if the heatsink gets too hot, they dribble
some cold water through it - brilliant! The downside is they don't use
a conventional cold valve but one they can turn on only a little bit
(I stand to be corrected on this point also :)

Cheers Ray
 
<snip>

I have in my hot little (big) hands, a hand drawn schematic of the
501/601/701 series motor controllers and display pcbs. I was i under a
NDA, and probably still am technically. However, I will scan the
schematics, which are in no way complete, if someone can draw them up
in Protel (not dxp) for me. The schematics only have part numbers, no
values. I will also be happy to email the scans, just so long as no
one publishes them on the internet.

I would also greatly appreciate any unused damaged boards that are not
wanted. I do believe that I can prolly design an opensource
aftermarket controller for these machines. I am currently in the
process of designing something similar, so I can probably adapt that.
Thanks to our good frinds at IR, there is some neat parts now
available to make this job very easy. This combined with the fact that
open source can provide a wealth of opportunity to improve on designs
can only be a good thing.

Please post replies here only, no email thanks.


BTW. Will start scanning tonight.
 
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:40:27 +1000, The Real Andy
<.pearson@wayit_dot_com_dot_au_remove_the_obvious_to_reply> wrote:

snip

I have in my hot little (big) hands, a hand drawn schematic of the
501/601/701 series motor controllers and display pcbs. I was i under a
NDA, and probably still am technically. However, I will scan the
schematics, which are in no way complete, if someone can draw them up
in Protel (not dxp) for me. The schematics only have part numbers, no
values. I will also be happy to email the scans, just so long as no
one publishes them on the internet.

I would also greatly appreciate any unused damaged boards that are not
wanted. I do believe that I can prolly design an opensource
aftermarket controller for these machines. I am currently in the
process of designing something similar, so I can probably adapt that.
Thanks to our good frinds at IR, there is some neat parts now
available to make this job very easy. This combined with the fact that
open source can provide a wealth of opportunity to improve on designs
can only be a good thing.

Please post replies here only, no email thanks.


BTW. Will start scanning tonight.
Click to expand...

Would also like to get those error codes again if someone has them
available. I did have the service manuals, but i'll be buggered if I
can find them.
 
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:27:24 +1000, The Real Andy
<.pearson@wayit_dot_com_dot_au_remove_the_obvious_to_reply> wrote:

Would also like to get those error codes again if someone has them
available. I did have the service manuals, but i'll be buggered if I
can find them.
Click to expand...
Check your mail.
 
Can I check my email too please.

Thanks.


"budgie" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:slnke05bc6fquhs6ggnic11crcfng23ebe@4ax.com...
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:27:24 +1000, The Real Andy
.pearson@wayit_dot_com_dot_au_remove_the_obvious_to_reply> wrote:


Would also like to get those error codes again if someone has them
available. I did have the service manuals, but i'll be buggered if I
can find them.

Check your mail.
Click to expand...
 
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 10:12:28 GMT, "Steven G." <steven.georgeNOSPAM@telstra.com>
wrote:

Can I check my email too please.
Click to expand...
I suspect you already do, no?

Thanks.


"budgie" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:slnke05bc6fquhs6ggnic11crcfng23ebe@4ax.com...
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:27:24 +1000, The Real Andy
.pearson@wayit_dot_com_dot_au_remove_the_obvious_to_reply> wrote:


Would also like to get those error codes again if someone has them
available. I did have the service manuals, but i'll be buggered if I
can find them.

Check your mail.
Click to expand...
 
Can anyone shed more light on what to check and fix?
Click to expand...
Check the motor winding wires where they connect to the terminals. A
wire broke on mine some years ago - the service guy was going to write
it off.

Peter
 
In article <ar6ie0p68uuvrstum8md86rd3vp6qm356l@4ax.com>,
notbarry@optushome.com.au says...
As per subject says :(

I have a 6kg F&P machine and it decided it doesn't want to spin the tub
anymore. I've read in the google archives that some here may know how to fix
it.

Basically, it was doing a load, and then stopped when it came to the spin
cycle. If I power it off then on, and start at the spin, it groans and turns
a bit then stops.

Foolishly, I decided to try the rinse cycles, and now the machine is full of
water that won't drain (well, most is hand bucketed out now).

Now when it starts the spin, it just hums without moving the tub.

I assume some of the motor drive mosfets have probably gone. Are they easy
to replace (ie. purchase)?
Click to expand...
Typical in service is to replace the entire motor controller module.

You could try Doug Smith Spares but I suspect they are unlikely to supply
individual components of a controller.

Could also be a bearing problem.

You should be able to drain the machine by disconnecting the drain outlet
at the back and lowering it.
 
In article <36kie05t3kbg8f7cgt2s782lesmcta303u@4ax.com>,
notbarry@optushome.com.au says...
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:56:32 +0800, budgie <me@privacy.net> wrote:

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:19:45 +1000, Barry <notbarry@optushome.com.au> wrote:

As per subject says :(

I have a 6kg F&P machine and it decided it doesn't want to spin the tub
anymore. I've read in the google archives that some here may know how to fix
it.

Basically, it was doing a load, and then stopped when it came to the spin
cycle. If I power it off then on, and start at the spin, it groans and turns
a bit then stops.

Foolishly, I decided to try the rinse cycles, and now the machine is full of
water that won't drain (well, most is hand bucketed out now).

Now when it starts the spin, it just hums without moving the tub.

I assume some of the motor drive mosfets have probably gone. Are they easy
to replace (ie. purchase)?

Our SmartDrive 603 shat itself a couple of years back. Contrary to Ray's
experience, in our machine the FETs were discretes and readily available. Being
in a three phase bridge config, when one goes its opposite number goes too,
leaving you with "two phase" drive to the biggie down the bottom.

If yours is similar, then replacement is easy. The bad news was that the drive
to the FETs was scrambled on our controller board. A replacement board was
~$160.

Be also aware that the whole DC side is off a full wave bridge from the mains,
so both rails are a health hazard. Makes using a ground-referenced CRO
problematic.

I know how fast the washing pile builds up when the machine breaks, and SWMBO is
usually very unamused. There is a diagnostic sequence for the 603 and its
siblings (and it even lets you pump the machine out!). If yours is one of
those, let me know.

I just pulled apart the main box that controls the water solenoids, and
other various bits (ie. where all the plugs connect to), not sure what this
module is called. Anyway, it has 10 discrete transistor like devices
connected to what appears to be a water cooled heatsink!

They are all labelled: Switchmode, Regulator, T2, Clamp, C/B/A Upper and
C/B/A lower. I assume the main drive devices are the Upper and Lower 3 (I'm
guessing Upper is the tub and Lower is the agitator). The board is copyright
1995.
Click to expand...
No, all recent models have only one driveshaft and a floating splined
clutch.

As the bowl fills with water, the inner tub floats up and disengages the
splines allowing the bowl to spin freely of the shaft, which is attached
directly to the agitator. In the spin cycle, as the water is pumped out,
the bowl lowers and engages the splines, allowing the bowl to be spun by
the same shaft. There is only one motor for all of this.
 
In article <36kie05t3kbg8f7cgt2s782lesmcta303u@4ax.com>,
notbarry@optushome.com.au says...

I just pulled apart the main box that controls the water solenoids, and
other various bits (ie. where all the plugs connect to), not sure what this
module is called. Anyway, it has 10 discrete transistor like devices
connected to what appears to be a water cooled heatsink!
Click to expand...
There are two possibilities. One is that you are looking at the pressure
switch which has a little rubber hose going down into the tub.

The more likely explanation is that the "temperature cooled heatsink" is
actually the mixing chamber for inlet water. To set the warm fill
temperature, older machines had a simmerstat which controlled (like the
elements on your stove) the duty cycle of the cold water valve. The
simmerstat had to be set at installation according to the local
conditions of water pressure/flow/temp to get the temperature right, and
re-adjusted thereafter if these variables changed.

The newer machines replace all this with temperature sensors and a
proportional cold valve. The inlet water is mixed in a chamber and the
temperature sensors adjust the opening of the cold valve to produce the
desired temp. Depending on the model you have, I think you can actually
adjust the warm temperature to what you prefer and the electronics will
maintain that regardless of local variations.
 
In article <MPG.1b5468ee71e3e4269896b0@news.netspace.net.au>,
zathrasAT@netspaceDOTnet.au says...

I must say the idea of the water cooled heatsink is a fantastic bit of
thinking. I've heard that if the heatsink gets too hot, they dribble
some cold water through it - brilliant! The downside is they don't use
a conventional cold valve but one they can turn on only a little bit
(I stand to be corrected on this point also :)
Click to expand...
I believe this is the inlet mixing chamber and temperature sensors which
control a proportional cold valve to set the warm fill temp.
 
On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:53:18 +1200, Patrick Dunford
<patrickdunford@nomail.invalid> wrote:

In article <ar6ie0p68uuvrstum8md86rd3vp6qm356l@4ax.com>,
notbarry@optushome.com.au says...
As per subject says :(

I have a 6kg F&P machine and it decided it doesn't want to spin the tub
anymore. I've read in the google archives that some here may know how to fix
it.

Basically, it was doing a load, and then stopped when it came to the spin
cycle. If I power it off then on, and start at the spin, it groans and turns
a bit then stops.

Foolishly, I decided to try the rinse cycles, and now the machine is full of
water that won't drain (well, most is hand bucketed out now).

Now when it starts the spin, it just hums without moving the tub.

I assume some of the motor drive mosfets have probably gone. Are they easy
to replace (ie. purchase)?

Typical in service is to replace the entire motor controller module.

You could try Doug Smith Spares but I suspect they are unlikely to supply
individual components of a controller.

Could also be a bearing problem.

You should be able to drain the machine by disconnecting the drain outlet
at the back and lowering it.
Click to expand...
Far easier to drain it using commands in diagnostic mode.
 
Far easier to drain it using commands in diagnostic mode.
Click to expand...

Which are?
I have an 053 BTW about 97 vintage........
last fault was no spin.
result new motor. cost all up $300

OUCH!
wrote a leter to FP. They responded with an $150 check.


So they did the right thing....

Regards,
Mitch


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 5/07/04
 
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 06:58:16 GMT, "Mitchell" <mmoules@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

Far easier to drain it using commands in diagnostic mode.


Which are?
I have an 053 BTW about 97 vintage........
last fault was no spin.
result new motor. cost all up $300

OUCH!
wrote a leter to FP. They responded with an $150 check.


So they did the right thing....

Regards,
Mitch
Click to expand...
Well... diagnostics are saying the pump, but the pump works, and I could
drain the tub no probs. It still can't spin properly though... very slow, or
doesn't move at all.

Ended up buying a new 7.5kg one (GW712), but still hopeful I might be able
to get it going again, or sell it to someone who wants it for a few $.

Barry.
 
Sorry. Nothing there. Telstra's Spam filters might have grabbed it. Make
sure you remove NOSPAM

Thanks.

"budgie" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:5vdle0davrqaf1689i8f5qdjtv9h19v9a8@4ax.com...
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 10:12:28 GMT, "Steven G."
steven.georgeNOSPAM@telstra.com
wrote:

Can I check my email too please.

I suspect you already do, no?

Thanks.


"budgie" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:slnke05bc6fquhs6ggnic11crcfng23ebe@4ax.com...
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:27:24 +1000, The Real Andy
.pearson@wayit_dot_com_dot_au_remove_the_obvious_to_reply> wrote:


Would also like to get those error codes again if someone has them
available. I did have the service manuals, but i'll be buggered if I
can find them.

Check your mail.
Click to expand...
 
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