Extension Lead Test

On 18/06/2010 9:54 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"David Eather"
Phil Allison wrote:


** You think Chinese copper has more ohms than others ??


No, but I buy a lot of stuff from China. My experience is just because
the
manufacturer says it has "whatever" specification there is no guarantee
as
to the truth of the mater ...


** Wot a lot of piffle.

Anyone can check and see if the conductors are really 1 sq mm copper
inside
or simply compare the self heating with another known lead connected in
series.


Yes, anyone *can* - but mostly they don't,


** Only takes ONE consumer to notice the BLOODY OBVIOUS and report it to
the safety authority.
I would just suggest that most consumers won't cut their extension lead
in half to check the conductors.

You are deliberately IGNORING the facts of this * particular * situation
and fabricating a false argument.

I suspect nothing I say will stop you from continuing to do so.

The bee in your bonnet is indeed a very busy one .......



If that lead had really reached 75C with only 7.5 amps - I would have
notified the relevant safety authority and all hell would then break
loose
with product recalls and the lot.

I have no doubt that you would (and it is the right thing to do of course)
and there would be recalls.


** Thing is, the makers and suppliers of such extension leads are also well
aware of the VERY SERIOUS repercussions of the blatant and CRIMINAL type
fraud you blithely imagine can easily be happening.

My comment about 'all hell breaking loose' was meant quite literally.


But, you might be surprised that if you were their employee, many larger
companies would not thank you for your diligence.


** True enough - but irrelevant to the issue here.

On more than a few occasions and while acting as a concerned outsider - I
have felt compelled to inform particular businesses& companies in Australia
that they were making, selling, advertising or publishing things in a way
that was VERY FAR outside of what is fair or legally acceptable practice.

For my trouble, I have received in consequence threatening letters from the
culprit's lawyers, several very hostile phone calls, an attempted smear
campaign against myself and my own small business in one case a direct
threat against my personal safety.

The culprits involved are mostly very well known to readers of this
newsgroup.

You don't need to tell me anything.
I've been in the same boat.

.... Phil
 
On Jun 19, 9:55 am, David Eather <eat...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
On 18/06/2010 9:54 PM, Phil Allison wrote:



"David Eather"
  Phil Allison wrote:

**  You think Chinese copper has more ohms than others ??

No, but I buy a lot of stuff from China. My experience is just because
the
manufacturer says it has "whatever" specification there is no guarantee
as
to the truth of the mater ...

** Wot a lot of piffle.

Anyone can check and see if the conductors are really 1 sq mm copper
inside
or simply compare the self heating with another known lead connected in
series.

Yes, anyone *can* - but mostly they don't,

** Only takes  ONE  consumer to notice the  BLOODY OBVIOUS and report it to
the safety authority.

I would just suggest that most consumers won't cut their extension lead
in half to check the conductors.
With everything having moulded plugs now, once you cut it, you have to
replace the plug.
I think that the current test is a better idea, especially if you have
a lot of them to test.



You are deliberately IGNORING  the facts of this * particular *  situation
and fabricating a false argument.

I suspect nothing I say will stop you from continuing to do so.

The bee in your bonnet is indeed a very busy one  .......

If that lead had really reached 75C with only 7.5 amps  -  I would have
notified the relevant safety authority and all hell would then break
loose
with product recalls and the lot.

I have no doubt that you would (and it is the right thing to do of course)
and there would be recalls.

**  Thing is, the makers and suppliers of such extension leads are also well
aware of the  VERY  SERIOUS  repercussions of the blatant and CRIMINAL type
fraud you blithely imagine can easily be happening.

My comment about 'all hell breaking loose' was meant quite literally.

But, you might be surprised that if you were their employee, many larger
companies would not thank you for your diligence.

** True enough  -  but irrelevant to the issue here.

On more than a few occasions and while acting as a concerned outsider  -  I
have felt compelled to inform particular businesses&  companies in Australia
that they were making, selling, advertising or publishing things in a way
that was VERY  FAR  outside of what is fair or legally acceptable practice.

For my trouble,  I have received in consequence threatening letters from the
culprit's lawyers, several very hostile phone calls, an attempted smear
campaign against myself and my own small business in one case a direct
threat against my personal safety.

The culprits involved are mostly very well known to readers of this
newsgroup.

You don't need to tell me anything.

I've been in the same boat.



....  Phil
 
On 19/06/2010 7:49 AM, Amigo wrote:
"David" <david@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:4c199c8c$0$13266$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
On 17/06/2010 12:57 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"Baron"

Phil Allison Inscribed thus:

How many amps did it take to reach 75C ??

Take a guess.


25 to 30 amps. :)


** Close - the cable stabilised at 75 C when passing 24 amps.

Temp rise above room ambient was 50 degrees C.

At this temp, the cable itself is still perfectly safe to use but the
possibility remains that the plug and socket may get rather hot if
the pins
are not reasonably free of tarnish.

Fact is though that 24 amps will soon trip a 16 amp or even 20 amp
breaker
in the AC supply circuit.

Fact is Phil has no idea. Take a guess at how long a 20A circuit
breaker will take to trip at 24A? For extra credit, how long will a
16A circuit breaker take to trip at 24A?

At least Phil has acknowledged he was wrong last time when he was
talking about 15A breakers, and has used the correct ratings.

Note that the current rating for flexible cable subject to flexing is
taken for a maximum temperature of 60C (ambient 40C). Where flexible
cords are used as fixed wiring, higher temperature rise is permitted
(ie higher current).

David


I think you are being a pedant, David.

One thing I do believe is that Phil A is pretty competent and knowledgeable
with electronics/electrical and I wouldn't hesitate to ask him to work on
gear of my if he would do so.

Phil *thinks* he knows everything. Fact is that he does not. When some
one dares to correct him, or point out something Phil does not know, he
becomes very aggressive, and attacks the person, and then repeatedly
posts the same attacks as he has nothing else positive to contribute.
You only have to read this thread to see this.

Fact is that Phil could only manage to complete two years of university
before being kicked out. Fact is that Phil is not even a licensed
electrical contractor (and does keep up with the latest standards). As
evident in previous he thinks "15 amp breakers are usual in the power box".

Phil also *thinks* that 24A will trip a 20A breaker "soon". Because Phil
thinks this, that must be true, and nobody better disagree. Fact is that
a 20A breaker may take 2 hours to trip on 20A. Don't take my word. Look
it up on a circuit breaker manufactures web site, and see the time vs
current tripping curve.

Electricity is something that you really do need to know about, and
being pedantic about it may well save peoples life. Look at the
insulation debacle to see why.


David
 
Phil Allison wrote:

How many amps did it take to reach 75C ??
Take a guess.

7.5A

** You think Chinese copper has more ohms than others ??
You bet your arse it does. (see my other thread on this)

Of course, they use less copper, and just blatantly lie about it on
the label.
 
Phil Allison wrote:

** Wot a lot of piffle.

Anyone can check and see if the conductors are really 1 sq mm copper inside
or simply compare the self heating with another known lead connected in
series.
Indeed.

If that lead had really reached 75C with only 7.5 amps - I would have
notified the relevant safety authority and all hell would then break loose
with product recalls and the lot.
And this crap will STILL be imported regardless. Kinda like saying you
don't like that particular droplet of ocean water, and the tide is
coming in. Are YOU going to stop it?

Worst still, no-one was likely to find out because these power cords
are supplied for low power gear that will never heat the cable above spec.
Till of course they take that particular power cable and plug it into
something that DOES take 10A, all the while wondering why they're left
with a smouldering mess.
 
kreed wrote:

With everything having moulded plugs now, once you cut it, you have to
replace the plug.
I think that the current test is a better idea, especially if you have
a lot of them to test.
It's all bullshit.

We did our own cable testing in-house at my last job, and I assure you,
the cable tester did not in the least care about current (or perhaps)
resistance testing. And as long as it got an OK from the tester box, we
signed the label, and the auditors were happy as pie.

We tested it with the chinese bullshit IEC power cables, and all of
them passed with flying colours. All they do is check to see each wire
goes to where it's supposed to, and there isn't high voltage leakage
between them.

Passed with flying colours and I routinely threw them out because I
could not, and would not trust them.

The supplier doesn't care. The most you'll do is legally *make* them
supply real cables and throw out the fake ones.
Per unit product price jumps by $10, and your supplier of $15 chinese
hard drive cases now charges $25 for the same thing.

And you're still paying $15 because you're now shopping from his next
door neighbour who still hasn't been nabbed yet, especially since your
first supplier has since gone out of business, and you're sourcing real
leads cheaper in quantity from elsewhere anyway.



*THAT* is reality, and how does this help *anyone*?.
 
"David Eather"
7.5A


** You think Chinese copper has more ohms than others ??


No, but I buy a lot of stuff from China.

** Then the whole business of safety and compliance with standards is YOUR
PROBLEM - pal !!!

Cos YOU are the IMPORTER !!!!
---------------------------------------

OTOH - my post involved a brand name mains extension lead, bought at a
major retail store here in Australia.

You comments are entirely SMARTARSE as they derive from a different
context where the LEGAL ONUS is on the IMPORTER to comply with electrical
safety laws.

The simplest way for a small time importer to comply, is to ditch any AC
leads that came with the item and source a fully approved example locally.


..... Phil
 
"John Tserkezis"
Phil Allison wrote:

** Wot a lot of piffle.

Anyone can check and see if the conductors are really 1 sq mm copper
inside
or simply compare the self heating with another known lead connected in
series.

Indeed.

If that lead had really reached 75C with only 7.5 amps - I would have
notified the relevant safety authority and all hell would then break
loose
with product recalls and the lot.

And this crap will STILL be imported regardless.

** By whom ??

Backyard Ebay sellers and a few similar gung ho types who have no idea what
the safety laws are ??

I challenge you to point to even one such dealer who is doing this.



..... Phil
 
"kreed"
"Phil Allison"

Yes, I remember cases of this type being exposed on this group going
back to at least 2002.
IEC leads.
I still remember a certain dickhead who despite the technical facts,
continued to argue the point.


** That poster was called "Miro".

A blow-in from "aus.photo" and "alt.satellite.tv.australasia".

Wot a lunatic.



..... Phil
 
On Jun 19, 12:05 pm, John Tserkezis
<j...@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:
How many amps did it take to reach 75C ??
Take a guess.
7.5A
**  You think Chinese copper has more ohms than others ??

 You bet your arse it does.  (see my other thread on this)

  Of course, they use less copper, and just blatantly lie about it on
the label.

Some of them might not even be copper. (at least not pure copper
anyway).

One under-rated IEC I cut apart (and posted results on here early
2007)
didn't look like copper (was more like a black colour rather than
copper colour), didn't like take to solder etc.

It melted / started smoking within a minute when running a 10A load
@240v.

This has led to "paranoia" in regards to testing of cords and
extensions ever since.
 
On 19/06/2010 2:18 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"David Eather"

7.5A


** You think Chinese copper has more ohms than others ??


No, but I buy a lot of stuff from China.


** Then the whole business of safety and compliance with standards is YOUR
PROBLEM - pal !!!

Cos YOU are the IMPORTER !!!!
---------------------------------------
The legal obligation of the importer ends at making *reasonable*
attempts to ensure they have a compliant product and that is all.

The obligation would be fulfilled by communication to the supplier of
the product requirements and *sighting* (not checking the validity of) a
certificate of compliance issued by an appropriate Australian authority.

If your argument is that shouldn't be enough and a competent,
responsible importer should do more than I agree with you.


OTOH - my post involved a brand name mains extension lead, bought at a
major retail store here in Australia.

You comments are entirely SMARTARSE as they derive from a different
context where the LEGAL ONUS is on the IMPORTER to comply with electrical
safety laws.
No they weren't, see above.
The simplest way for a small time importer to comply, is to ditch any AC
leads that came with the item and source a fully approved example locally.
Almost certainly.

.... Phil




Phil,

Are you just making objections because it's fun for you? I remember
telling someone that elevated temperatures decreased the life of
components (eg electro's) only to have you rip into me calling that
bullshit, and a few days/weeks ago, you are telling someone that
elevated temperatures reduce the life of components, so if they keep the
temperature of their electro's down to 65 degrees then they would have a
chance of it outlasting the product it was in.

Quite frankly arguments over shades of grey bore me.
 
"David Eather is off with the Fairies"
No, but I buy a lot of stuff from China.


** Then the whole business of safety and compliance with standards is
YOUR
PROBLEM - pal !!!

Cos YOU are the IMPORTER !!!!
---------------------------------------

The legal obligation of the importer ends at making *reasonable* ..

** Fraid you are completely, 1000 % WRONG !!!!!!!

Appliance leads ( IEC, extension etc) are PRESCRIBED items under
Australian electrical safety laws.

You cannot LEGALLY import and sell them unless YOU have obtained the
appropriate certifications and have the required labelling printed or
embossed ON the items - or you can be prosecuted.

Seems you have not got the faintest clue what all this is even means.

Go have a GOOD look at an Australian supplied IEC lead sometime - pal.

There have labelling codes on them that identifies the IMPORTER - and that
is NOT on a foreign market one.

See all those funny 3 and 4 digit N, Q and V prefix numbers on the plugs and
the cable ?????

Got any idea what they mean ????

Obviously not.

THIS FACT is where your smug arrogance is letting you down.


Are you just making objections because it's fun for you?

** Not at all.

You are another know nothing, PITA dickhead.

Clue up or piss off.



..... Phil
 
Phil Allison wrote:

And this crap will STILL be imported regardless.

** By whom ??
By everyone Phil. Don't you get it? It won't make a shit of
difference that every power cord that comes in needs to stamped,
C-Ticked and certified before it enters the country.

No wait, they already are. And how much of a difference has it made
Phil? Are we supposed to check every fucking authentically stamped
cable to make sure it isn't a fake?

Backyard Ebay sellers and a few similar gung ho types who have no idea what
the safety laws are ??
And the rest here.

I challenge you to point to even one such dealer who is doing this.
Here? Lots. Hop on the net and look for ANY yumcha compter parts
retailer here. Probably a 95% chance of finding a fake cable.
 
Phil Allison wrote:

Clue up or piss off.
Phil, it appears you've been yanking so much you don't realise
yourself. What's stamped on the cable is meaningless, they're fakes.

At the end of the day, these fakes are making it in to the retailer
then consumer level, and the CONSUMER has no means to check the validity
of the cable, it isn't their job anyway.

Fine you say, it's the retailer. Prosecute them? Fine that fucking
means NEARLY ALL of them.
 
"John Tserkezis = Lunatic "

Fine you say, it's the retailer.
** Where ever did I say that ?

Quite sure I referred only to IMPORTERS !!!!!!!!


Prosecute them?

** Easy to report any that you find - it aint hard to do, just a phone
call.

The authorities will investigate, issue recalls & public warnings and take
legal proceedings if need be.

Myself and Ross Herbert managed to get quite an investigation going in WA a
while back - dozens of street front retailers in the PC game were visited
& checked by the WA energy authority.

Boxes were opened and display items checked on.

Fraid not one illegal IEC lead was discovered.


Fine that fucking means NEARLY ALL of them.

** That is 100% paranoid CRAP !!!

Put up or shut up you lying wog cunt.

My god you one evil wog pig.



..... Phil
 
On 19/06/2010 7:21 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"David Eather is off with the Fairies"


No, but I buy a lot of stuff from China.


** Then the whole business of safety and compliance with standards is
YOUR
PROBLEM - pal !!!

Cos YOU are the IMPORTER !!!!
---------------------------------------

The legal obligation of the importer ends at making *reasonable* ..


** Fraid you are completely, 1000 % WRONG !!!!!!!

Appliance leads ( IEC, extension etc) are PRESCRIBED items under
Australian electrical safety laws.

You cannot LEGALLY import and sell them unless YOU have obtained the
appropriate certifications and have the required labelling printed or
embossed ON the items - or you can be prosecuted.

Seems you have not got the faintest clue what all this is even means.

Go have a GOOD look at an Australian supplied IEC lead sometime - pal.

There have labelling codes on them that identifies the IMPORTER - and that
is NOT on a foreign market one.

See all those funny 3 and 4 digit N, Q and V prefix numbers on the plugs and
the cable ?????

Got any idea what they mean ????

Obviously not.

THIS FACT is where your smug arrogance is letting you down.
I really am not being smug in the least. Serious. If I was trying to be
smug I would add insults and belittling expressions, which I haven't done.
 
John Tserkezis wrote:
kreed wrote:

With everything having moulded plugs now, once you cut it, you have to
replace the plug.
I think that the current test is a better idea, especially if you have
a lot of them to test.

It's all bullshit.

We did our own cable testing in-house at my last job, and I assure you,
the cable tester did not in the least care about current (or perhaps)
resistance testing. And as long as it got an OK from the tester box, we
signed the label, and the auditors were happy as pie.

We tested it with the chinese bullshit IEC power cables, and all of
them passed with flying colours. All they do is check to see each wire
goes to where it's supposed to, and there isn't high voltage leakage
between them.

Passed with flying colours and I routinely threw them out because I
could not, and would not trust them.

The supplier doesn't care. The most you'll do is legally *make* them
supply real cables and throw out the fake ones.
Per unit product price jumps by $10, and your supplier of $15 chinese
hard drive cases now charges $25 for the same thing.

And you're still paying $15 because you're now shopping from his next
door neighbour who still hasn't been nabbed yet, especially since your
first supplier has since gone out of business, and you're sourcing real
leads cheaper in quantity from elsewhere anyway.



*THAT* is reality, and how does this help *anyone*?.
A friend of mine in the UK had a business making cables. He made all
sorts, audio, video, and mains leads. He eventually gave it away because
imported Chinese cables, especially mains leads, were being retailed for
less than his cost of materials. Since he was buying his materials on
the same open market as they were, there was obviously some major
difference in the quality of the product being used.
 
"David Eather is off with the Fairies"
No, but I buy a lot of stuff from China.


** Then the whole business of safety and compliance with standards is
YOUR PROBLEM - pal !!!

Cos YOU are the IMPORTER !!!!
---------------------------------------

The legal obligation of the importer ends at making *reasonable* ..


** Fraid you are completely, 1000 % WRONG !!!!!!!

Appliance leads ( IEC, extension etc) are PRESCRIBED items under
Australian electrical safety laws.

You cannot LEGALLY import and sell them unless YOU have obtained the
appropriate certifications and have the required labelling printed or
embossed ON the items - or you can be prosecuted.

Seems you have not got the faintest clue what all this is even means.

Go have a GOOD look at an Australian supplied IEC lead sometime - pal.

There have labelling codes on them that identifies the IMPORTER - and
that
is NOT on a foreign market one.

See all those funny 3 and 4 digit N, Q and V prefix numbers on the plugs
and
the cable ?????

Got any idea what they mean ????

Obviously not.

THIS FACT is where your smug arrogance is letting you down.

I really am not being smug in the least.

** You are nothing but smug.

You imagine you understand something you do NOT.

You refuse to be corrected.

That is smug.


...... Phil
 
Does anyone know what electrical qualifications this idiot Allison has.? Or
any others for that matter. Maybe when he leaves school he may mature. It
would take a while though. Just a thought
 
Metro wrote:
Does anyone know what electrical qualifications this idiot Allison has.? Or
any others for that matter. Maybe when he leaves school he may mature. It
would take a while though. Just a thought




Phil has quite a bit of electrical knowledge,He is just extremely annoying.
 

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