Every Tesla Accident Resulting in Death...

[David Brown]

On 01/04/2022 18:53, Ricky wrote:

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:29:58 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
On 01/04/2022 14:38, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-4, David Brown
wrote:

Well, \"does something daft\" is no worse than \"acts like a
spaz\", and it\'s a good deal more politically correct!

Bzzzz. Sorry, you failed.

Really? You think describing the autopilot\'s actions as \"acts like
a spaz\" is useful and specific, while \"does something daft\" is not?
As for the political correctness - find a real spastic and ask them
what they think of your phrase.

How do you know what is meant by \"spaz\"? That\'s my point. Words
like that are not well defined. I intended the word to be colorful,
with no particular meaning. Your use of daft was in a statement that
needed much more detail to be meaningful. Besides, if I jump off a
cliff, are you going to jump as well?

I know what the word \"spaz\" means. I know what /you/ meant by it in the
context - just as I know that you know what \"does something daft\" meant
(including the implied vagueness of the phrase). I have no idea why you
are pretending you don\'t, nor why you are getting your knickers in a
twist about me writing \"daft\" after you wrote \"spaz\".

(And I hope you know what that last colourful British phrase means, and
don\'t think it is meant literally )

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 12:59:41 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:

On 01/04/2022 18:39, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:12:26 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
On 01/04/2022 14:42, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 8:19:31 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/22 23:39, David Brown wrote:
On 01/04/2022 00:29, Ricky wrote:

Sorry, that\'s not how an autopilot works. It doesn\'t fly the
plane. It simply maintains a heading and altitude.
They have been doing more than that for for > 50 years. Cat 3b
landings were in operation when I was a kid.
Someone still has to be watching for other aircraft and
otherwise flying the plane. In other words, the pilot is
responsible for flying the plane, with or without the
autopilot.

Yes, that\'s the original idea of a plane autopilot. But modern
ones are more sophisticated and handle course changes along the
planned route, as well as being able to land automatically. And
more important than what plane autopilots actually /do/, is what
people /think/ they do - and remember we are talking about
drivers that think their Tesla \"autopilot\" will drive their car
while they watch a movie or nap in the back seat.
And, to put it kindly, aren\'t discouraged in that misapprehension
by the statements of the cars\' manufacturers and salesdroids.

Now, what\'s the best set of techniques to get that concept into the
heads of twats that think \"autopilot\" means \"it does it for me\".

That\'s Tom Gardner level misinformation. Comments about what people
think are spurious and unsubstantiated. A class of \"twats\" can be
invented that think anything. Nothing matters other than what Tesla
owners think. They are the ones driving the cars.

Are you suggesting that none of the people who drive Teslas are twats?
(Maybe that term is too British for you.)

The term is too BS for me. A twat is whoever you want them to be. For all I know, you think everyone who drives a Tesla is a twat. How about if we discuss facts rather than BS?

It means \"a stupid person\" or \"someone who does stupid things\". No, not
everyone who drives a Tesla is a twat - but /some/ are, such as those
that think their autopilot will drive the car without them paying attention.

And are you suggesting that only Tesla drivers are affected by Tesla
crashes? Obviously they will be disproportionally affected, but motor
accidents often involve other people and other cars. And while Tesla
may be leading the way in car \"autopiloting\", others are following - the
strengths and weaknesses of Tesla\'s systems are relevant to other car
manufacturers.

Now I have no idea why you have brought this up from left field. Is \"left field\" too American for you? That\'s from a sport called \"baseball\", not to be confused with \"blernsball\".

You said that Tesla autopilots are only relevant to Tesla drivers.
That\'s wrong. I usually prefer to give a bit of explanation as to why I
think someone is wrong.

Please reread my post. I said nothing of the sort. Please read carefully. Quotes are also helpful.

--

Rick C.

+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[David Brown]

On 01/04/2022 18:25, Ricky wrote:

Please, go to a Tesla forum and read about the cars a bit. It would save me a lot of typing.

No, thanks.

As so often seems to happen in this group, this thread is going nowhere.
I\'m not interested enough in Teslas to start reading forums, brochures,
or other information. You are not interested in sharing more than the
occasional titbit of information, and it must be dragged out of you
through frustrated and somewhat unfriendly comments on both sides - you
prefer to tell people they are wrong than offer corrections or your own
opinion. I think sometimes this group brings out the worst in people,
even when the worst members of the group are not involved in the thread
- we develop some bad habits here. It is frustrating.

I leave the thread /marginally/ better informed than I started.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 01/04/22 17:25, Ricky wrote:

I don\'t really understand what you mean about \"restrictions\". Again, I think
your image of how it works is not how it works. I don\'t know enough of your
image to know how to explain to you what you have wrong.

Autopilot will try to keep the car in a lane, recognize lights, stop signs,
exit ramps and vehicles. When on appropriate highways, it will work in
navigate on autopilot where it can change lanes (pass slow vehicles, get out
of passing lane, etc.) and take exits. It will stop for traffic lights, but
can not navigate turns at intersections or even twisty roads. When it sees
somthing that upsets it, it will sound the alarm (that should be ALARM) and
insist you take over. One such situation is blinking yellow lights at an
intersection with light traffic. The autopilot never understands this light
can be driven through.

You need to datestamp your description of the autopilot\'s
capabilities and foibles - Tesla keeps updating it. IMHO that\'s
a problem, since the car\'s behaviour today might be significantly
different to when you last drove it. And the driver probably won\'t
even know the difference exists; would you read the overnight
\"change notes\" when all you want to do is drive to the shops?

Example:
https://www.pluscars.net/tesla-autopilot-automatically-stopped-at-red-light-for-the-first-time-105-news

It sounds like your Tesla doesn\'t have the autopilot mentioned,
viz \"$7,000 full autonomous driving package recognizes traffic
lights and stop signs. It provides autonomous driving in the city.\"

Sounds like a lot more than \"highway only\".

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 2:36:52 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:

On 01/04/2022 18:25, Ricky wrote:

Please, go to a Tesla forum and read about the cars a bit. It would save me a lot of typing.

No, thanks.

As so often seems to happen in this group, this thread is going nowhere.
I\'m not interested enough in Teslas to start reading forums, brochures,
or other information. You are not interested in sharing more than the
occasional titbit of information, and it must be dragged out of you
through frustrated and somewhat unfriendly comments on both sides - you
prefer to tell people they are wrong than offer corrections or your own
opinion. I think sometimes this group brings out the worst in people,
even when the worst members of the group are not involved in the thread
- we develop some bad habits here. It is frustrating.

I leave the thread /marginally/ better informed than I started.

If you want to ask direct questions, fine. I\'m not going to create a tutorial for you.

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 2:39:47 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 01/04/22 17:25, Ricky wrote:
I don\'t really understand what you mean about \"restrictions\". Again, I think
your image of how it works is not how it works. I don\'t know enough of your
image to know how to explain to you what you have wrong.

Autopilot will try to keep the car in a lane, recognize lights, stop signs,
exit ramps and vehicles. When on appropriate highways, it will work in
navigate on autopilot where it can change lanes (pass slow vehicles, get out
of passing lane, etc.) and take exits. It will stop for traffic lights, but
can not navigate turns at intersections or even twisty roads. When it sees
somthing that upsets it, it will sound the alarm (that should be ALARM) and
insist you take over. One such situation is blinking yellow lights at an
intersection with light traffic. The autopilot never understands this light
can be driven through.
You need to datestamp your description of the autopilot\'s
capabilities and foibles - Tesla keeps updating it. IMHO that\'s
a problem, since the car\'s behaviour today might be significantly
different to when you last drove it. And the driver probably won\'t
even know the difference exists; would you read the overnight
\"change notes\" when all you want to do is drive to the shops?

Example:
https://www.pluscars.net/tesla-autopilot-automatically-stopped-at-red-light-for-the-first-time-105-news

Yes, I said it will stop for lights and stop signs. What\'s your point?

It sounds like your Tesla doesn\'t have the autopilot mentioned,
viz \"$7,000 full autonomous driving package recognizes traffic
lights and stop signs. It provides autonomous driving in the city.\"

Autopilot is not \"autonomous driving\", period. That\'s the point. You don\'t say where you read this, but the price puts it sometime in the 2020 timeframe or older. But then, when I bought mine, there were multiple choices available. \"Full self driving\" was the highest level, which was paying for something that is not on the road. They are now beta testing, but not \"autonomous\" driving.


> Sounds like a lot more than \"highway only\".

Hard to tell. This is very unlikely to have come from Tesla as they never refer to it as \"autonomous\" driving. They use brand names.

I will ask again that you read my posts and read them thoroughly. You clearly are not doing that.

If you aren\'t going to read the posts, then don\'t reply. Ok?

BTW, I did a Google search on your quote and it didn\'t turn up a match. So it would see you got that from a phone call or something that Google doesn\'t yet crawl. It did turn up this which is very interesting.

https://nypost.com/2022/03/31/court-orders-tesla-to-buy-back-model-3-in-autopilot-case/

\'Tesla says FSD and its attendant features require “active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous.”\'

So take it straight from the horse\'s mouth! Also, please stop the BS, ok?

--

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 01/04/22 21:12, Ricky wrote:

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 2:39:47 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 01/04/22 17:25, Ricky wrote:
I don\'t really understand what you mean about \"restrictions\". Again, I think
your image of how it works is not how it works. I don\'t know enough of your
image to know how to explain to you what you have wrong.

Autopilot will try to keep the car in a lane, recognize lights, stop signs,
exit ramps and vehicles. When on appropriate highways, it will work in
navigate on autopilot where it can change lanes (pass slow vehicles, get out
of passing lane, etc.) and take exits. It will stop for traffic lights, but
can not navigate turns at intersections or even twisty roads. When it sees
somthing that upsets it, it will sound the alarm (that should be ALARM) and
insist you take over. One such situation is blinking yellow lights at an
intersection with light traffic. The autopilot never understands this light
can be driven through.
You need to datestamp your description of the autopilot\'s
capabilities and foibles - Tesla keeps updating it. IMHO that\'s
a problem, since the car\'s behaviour today might be significantly
different to when you last drove it. And the driver probably won\'t
even know the difference exists; would you read the overnight
\"change notes\" when all you want to do is drive to the shops?

Example:
https://www.pluscars.net/tesla-autopilot-automatically-stopped-at-red-light-for-the-first-time-105-news

Yes, I said it will stop for lights and stop signs. What\'s your point?

Read the paragraph above the word \"Example:\"

It sounds like your Tesla doesn\'t have the autopilot mentioned,
viz \"$7,000 full autonomous driving package recognizes traffic
lights and stop signs. It provides autonomous driving in the city.\"

Autopilot is not \"autonomous driving\", period. That\'s the point. You don\'t say where you read this, but the price puts it sometime in the 2020 timeframe or older. But then, when I bought mine, there were multiple choices available. \"Full self driving\" was the highest level, which was paying for something that is not on the road. They are now beta testing, but not \"autonomous\" driving.


Sounds like a lot more than \"highway only\".

Hard to tell. This is very unlikely to have come from Tesla as they never refer to it as \"autonomous\" driving. They use brand names.

I will ask again that you read my posts and read them thoroughly. You clearly are not doing that.

If you aren\'t going to read the posts, then don\'t reply. Ok?

Mirror.


> BTW, I did a Google search on your quote and it didn\'t turn up a match. So it would see you got that from a phone call or something that Google doesn\'t yet crawl.

It is in the pluscars article referenced!

What was that you were saying about reading posts thoroughly?

It did turn up this which is very interesting.

https://nypost.com/2022/03/31/court-orders-tesla-to-buy-back-model-3-in-autopilot-case/

\'Tesla says FSD and its attendant features require “active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous.”\'

Yes. Musk is backtracking from some of his earlier outrageous claims.

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 7:10:00 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 01/04/22 21:12, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 2:39:47 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 01/04/22 17:25, Ricky wrote:
I don\'t really understand what you mean about \"restrictions\". Again, I think
your image of how it works is not how it works. I don\'t know enough of your
image to know how to explain to you what you have wrong.

Autopilot will try to keep the car in a lane, recognize lights, stop signs,
exit ramps and vehicles. When on appropriate highways, it will work in
navigate on autopilot where it can change lanes (pass slow vehicles, get out
of passing lane, etc.) and take exits. It will stop for traffic lights, but
can not navigate turns at intersections or even twisty roads. When it sees
somthing that upsets it, it will sound the alarm (that should be ALARM) and
insist you take over. One such situation is blinking yellow lights at an
intersection with light traffic. The autopilot never understands this light
can be driven through.
You need to datestamp your description of the autopilot\'s
capabilities and foibles - Tesla keeps updating it. IMHO that\'s
a problem, since the car\'s behaviour today might be significantly
different to when you last drove it. And the driver probably won\'t
even know the difference exists; would you read the overnight
\"change notes\" when all you want to do is drive to the shops?

Example:
https://www.pluscars.net/tesla-autopilot-automatically-stopped-at-red-light-for-the-first-time-105-news

Yes, I said it will stop for lights and stop signs. What\'s your point?
Read the paragraph above the word \"Example:\"

Read this: What\'s YOUR point?

It sounds like your Tesla doesn\'t have the autopilot mentioned,
viz \"$7,000 full autonomous driving package recognizes traffic
lights and stop signs. It provides autonomous driving in the city.\"

Autopilot is not \"autonomous driving\", period. That\'s the point. You don\'t say where you read this, but the price puts it sometime in the 2020 timeframe or older. But then, when I bought mine, there were multiple choices available. \"Full self driving\" was the highest level, which was paying for something that is not on the road. They are now beta testing, but not \"autonomous\" driving.


Sounds like a lot more than \"highway only\".

Hard to tell. This is very unlikely to have come from Tesla as they never refer to it as \"autonomous\" driving. They use brand names.

I will ask again that you read my posts and read them thoroughly. You clearly are not doing that.

If you aren\'t going to read the posts, then don\'t reply. Ok?
Mirror.
BTW, I did a Google search on your quote and it didn\'t turn up a match. So it would see you got that from a phone call or something that Google doesn\'t yet crawl.
It is in the pluscars article referenced!

What was that you were saying about reading posts thoroughly?

I did a google search on the quote. It also doesn\'t show up in a text search on that web page because you munged the quote.

Even so, you are quoting a reporter writing an article, not an authoritative source. If you are going to pull BS like this, there\'s no reason to try to have a discussion. Please look up what TESLA says about their products. Not what a reporter said two years ago. This is why it is so hard to have a conversation with you. You don\'t really try to understand anything.

It did turn up this which is very interesting.

https://nypost.com/2022/03/31/court-orders-tesla-to-buy-back-model-3-in-autopilot-case/

\'Tesla says FSD and its attendant features require “active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous.”\'
Yes. Musk is backtracking from some of his earlier outrageous claims.

Please provide those claims. I suspect you are thinking of things he has predicted rather than what he says the cars can do. Yes, he says all sorts of things about the future. He said there would be robo-taxis in 2020. So what?

The point is you need to read what Tesla says, not Musk, not reporters. Stop with all the BS, please.

--

Rick C.

--+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Don Y]

On 4/1/2022 8:12 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 01/04/22 14:07, Don Y wrote:

snipped many points where we are talking about
different classes of aircraft and air traffic

I.e., a pilot is a lot more likely to understand the function
AND LIMITATIONS of an (aircraft) autopilot than a driver is to
have similar appreciation for an (automobile) \"autopilot\".

That\'s true for the aircraft, but nobody has developed
an autopilot. You have to stay awake feel (literally,
by the seat of your pants) what\'s happening. The nearest
to an autopilot is a moving map airspace display.

Commercial aircraft rely on autopilots. In a sense, it is
an easier (navigation) problem to solve -- there\'s no real \"traffic\"
or other obstacles beyond the airports (assuming you maintain your
assigned flight corridor/speed). The same is true of railways
and waterways (more or less).

Er, no.

You are considering a small part of air traffic, that
in controlled airspace.

And GLIDERS are a LARGE part of air traffic? Really?
How are we measuring this -- passenger miles, flights,
miles travelled, etc.?

Many flights, powered and unpowered, happen outside
controlled airspace, where the rule is to look out
of the cockpit for converging traffic.

And? How does that affect my claim as to the TYPES OF PEOPLE WHO ARE
PILOTS vs. DRIVERS?

One one occasion I watched a commercial airliner
taking off a thousand feet below me. Hercules buzz
around too. Then there are balloons, hang gliders
and the like.

There are even rules as to which side of roads and
railways you should fly on, so that there aren\'t
head-on collisions between aircraft following the
same ground feature in opposite directions

Gliders frequently operate very near each other,
especially in thermals and when landing. They
also have to spot other gliders coming straight
at them when ridge flying; not trivial to spot
a white blob the size of a motorbike\'s front
converging at 120mph.

So, you\'re claiming that glider pilots are the types of people who
will climb into the back seat and take a nap? Or, play a video game
while flying?

Or, are tehy A DIFFERENT TYPE OF PERSON than the drivers you
allege do these things?

To help cope with that, some gliders are equipped
with FLARMs - short range radio transmitters to
indicate the direction of other gliders and whether
you are likely to hit them.

Cars operate in a much more challenging environment. Even \"on the open
road\", a condition can arise that needs immediate driver attention
(witness these 50-car pileups).

Note how poorly \"seasoned\" drivers adapt to the first snowfall of
the season. (Really? Did you FORGET what this stuff was like??)
Do they do any special (mental?) prep prior to getting behind the
wheel, in those cases? Or, just \"wing it\", assuming \"it will
come back to them\"?

Pilots often don\'t understand what\'s going on; just
listen to the accident reports on the news

I think those events are caused by cognitive overload, not ignorance.

Not always, e.g. the recent 737 crashes.

So, a defect in an autopilot implementation can be similarly excused?

Que? Strawman.

I made the point regarding the types of people being compared.
Thus, you have to exclude the effects of \"other issues\" that
may contribute to the \"bad outcomes\" being claimed.

If the equipment/system has a defect, then you can\'t blame it on
the type of person operating that equipment! (or, are you claiming
all the 737 pilots were slack-offs?)

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2022-04-01 18:25, Ricky wrote:
[...]

Please just go read a bit about them. There is tons of info. Even
weighing just the electrons to read it all, it\'s still tons! How
many electrons in a ton, anyway?

About 1e33.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 16:16:56 +0200, David Brown
<david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 29/03/2022 15:00, Rickster wrote:
On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:12:23 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
From comp.risks https://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/33/11/#subj1.1

The website referred to appears to be collating information in
a reasonable and unemotional way.


Every Tesla Accident Resulting in Death (Tesla Deaths)
Gabe Goldberg <ga...@gabegold.com
Thu, 24 Mar 2022 01:53:39 -0400

We provide an updated record of Tesla fatalities and Tesla accident deaths
that have been reported and as much related crash data as possible
(e.g. location of crash, names of deceased, etc.). This sheet also tallies
claimed and confirmed Tesla autopilot crashes, i.e. instances when
Autopilot was activated during a Tesla crash that resulted in death. Read
our other sheets for additional data and analysis on vehicle miles traveled,
links and analysis comparing Musk\'s safety claims, and more.

Tesla Deaths Total as of 3/23/2022: 246
Tesla Autopilot Deaths Count: 12

https://www.tesladeaths.com/

Yeah, it\'s raw data. Did you have a point?


Without comparisons to other types of car, and correlations with other
factors, such raw data is useless. You\'d need to compare to other
high-end electric cars, other petrol cars in similar price ranges and
styles. You\'d want to look at statistics for \"typical Tesla drivers\"
(who are significantly richer than the average driver, but I don\'t know
what other characteristics might be relevant - age, gender, driving
experience, etc.) You\'d have to compare statistics for the countries
and parts of countries where Teslas are common.

And you would /definitely/ want to anonymise the data. If I had a
family member who was killed in a car crash, I would not be happy about
their name and details of their death being used for some sort of absurd
Tesla hate-site.

I\'m no fan of Teslas myself. I like a car to be controlled like a car,
not a giant iPhone (and I don\'t like iPhones either). I don\'t like the
heavy tax breaks given by Norway to a luxury car, and I don\'t like the
environmental costs of making them (though I am glad to see improvements
on that front). I don\'t like some of the silly claims people make about
them - like Apple gadgets, they seem to bring out the fanboy in some of
their owners. But that\'s all just me and my personal preferences and
opinions - if someone else likes them, that\'s fine. Many Tesla owners
are very happy with their cars (and some are unhappy - just as for any
other car manufacturer). I can\'t see any reason for trying to paint
them as evil death-traps - you\'d need very strong statistical basis for
that, not just a list of accidents.

Yeahbut the problem is conventional cars don\'t tend to lock all the
doors trapping everyone inside and then burst into flames like Teslas
do. Call me old fashioned if you like, but I don\'t see that as being a
great selling point.

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 1:08:05 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 16:16:56 +0200, David Brown
david...@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 29/03/2022 15:00, Rickster wrote:
On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:12:23 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
From comp.risks https://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/33/11/#subj1.1

The website referred to appears to be collating information in
a reasonable and unemotional way.


Every Tesla Accident Resulting in Death (Tesla Deaths)
Gabe Goldberg <ga...@gabegold.com
Thu, 24 Mar 2022 01:53:39 -0400

We provide an updated record of Tesla fatalities and Tesla accident deaths
that have been reported and as much related crash data as possible
(e.g. location of crash, names of deceased, etc.). This sheet also tallies
claimed and confirmed Tesla autopilot crashes, i.e. instances when
Autopilot was activated during a Tesla crash that resulted in death. Read
our other sheets for additional data and analysis on vehicle miles traveled,
links and analysis comparing Musk\'s safety claims, and more.

Tesla Deaths Total as of 3/23/2022: 246
Tesla Autopilot Deaths Count: 12

https://www.tesladeaths.com/

Yeah, it\'s raw data. Did you have a point?


Without comparisons to other types of car, and correlations with other
factors, such raw data is useless. You\'d need to compare to other
high-end electric cars, other petrol cars in similar price ranges and
styles. You\'d want to look at statistics for \"typical Tesla drivers\"
(who are significantly richer than the average driver, but I don\'t know
what other characteristics might be relevant - age, gender, driving
experience, etc.) You\'d have to compare statistics for the countries
and parts of countries where Teslas are common.

And you would /definitely/ want to anonymise the data. If I had a
family member who was killed in a car crash, I would not be happy about
their name and details of their death being used for some sort of absurd
Tesla hate-site.

I\'m no fan of Teslas myself. I like a car to be controlled like a car,
not a giant iPhone (and I don\'t like iPhones either). I don\'t like the
heavy tax breaks given by Norway to a luxury car, and I don\'t like the
environmental costs of making them (though I am glad to see improvements
on that front). I don\'t like some of the silly claims people make about
them - like Apple gadgets, they seem to bring out the fanboy in some of
their owners. But that\'s all just me and my personal preferences and
opinions - if someone else likes them, that\'s fine. Many Tesla owners
are very happy with their cars (and some are unhappy - just as for any
other car manufacturer). I can\'t see any reason for trying to paint
them as evil death-traps - you\'d need very strong statistical basis for
that, not just a list of accidents.

Yeahbut the problem is conventional cars don\'t tend to lock all the
doors trapping everyone inside and then burst into flames like Teslas
do. Call me old fashioned if you like, but I don\'t see that as being a
great selling point.

Mostly because it\'s a huge exaggeration, and you know that. I expect you\'d rather drive a Pinto.

--

Rick C.

--++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[John Doe]

Cursitor Doom wrote:

Yeahbut the problem is conventional cars don\'t tend to lock all the
doors trapping everyone inside and then burst into flames like Teslas
do. Call me old fashioned if you like, but I don\'t see that as being a
great selling point.

lol
That sounds a little harsh. Got an idea for a bumper sticker...

TEST VEHICLE - NO DRIVER

To keep people at a distance.

 

[John Doe]

Ricky wrote:

> I expect you\'d rather drive a Pinto.

Pinto explodes when hit from behind.

https://youtu.be/ngtALzDAIcU (8 seconds)

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 18:59:33 +0200, David Brown
<david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 01/04/2022 18:39, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:12:26 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
On 01/04/2022 14:42, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 8:19:31 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/22 23:39, David Brown wrote:
On 01/04/2022 00:29, Ricky wrote:

Sorry, that\'s not how an autopilot works. It doesn\'t fly the
plane. It simply maintains a heading and altitude.
They have been doing more than that for for > 50 years. Cat 3b
landings were in operation when I was a kid.
Someone still has to be watching for other aircraft and
otherwise flying the plane. In other words, the pilot is
responsible for flying the plane, with or without the
autopilot.

Yes, that\'s the original idea of a plane autopilot. But modern
ones are more sophisticated and handle course changes along the
planned route, as well as being able to land automatically. And
more important than what plane autopilots actually /do/, is what
people /think/ they do - and remember we are talking about
drivers that think their Tesla \"autopilot\" will drive their car
while they watch a movie or nap in the back seat.
And, to put it kindly, aren\'t discouraged in that misapprehension
by the statements of the cars\' manufacturers and salesdroids.

Now, what\'s the best set of techniques to get that concept into the
heads of twats that think \"autopilot\" means \"it does it for me\".

That\'s Tom Gardner level misinformation. Comments about what people
think are spurious and unsubstantiated. A class of \"twats\" can be
invented that think anything. Nothing matters other than what Tesla
owners think. They are the ones driving the cars.

Are you suggesting that none of the people who drive Teslas are twats?
(Maybe that term is too British for you.)

The term is too BS for me. A twat is whoever you want them to be. For all I know, you think everyone who drives a Tesla is a twat. How about if we discuss facts rather than BS?


It means \"a stupid person\" or \"someone who does stupid things\". No, not
everyone who drives a Tesla is a twat - but /some/ are, such as those
that think their autopilot will drive the car without them paying attention.

The term \"autopilot\" kind of suggests you can do precisely that,
though.
I don\'t like these half-baked ideas. Don\'t call a self-driving car
that until it\'s *truly* and *safely* autonymous. The worst situation
is giving the driver a false sense of security - which is where we are
currently.

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 8:19:43 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 18:59:33 +0200, David Brown
david...@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 01/04/2022 18:39, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:12:26 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
On 01/04/2022 14:42, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 8:19:31 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/22 23:39, David Brown wrote:
On 01/04/2022 00:29, Ricky wrote:

Sorry, that\'s not how an autopilot works. It doesn\'t fly the
plane. It simply maintains a heading and altitude.
They have been doing more than that for for > 50 years. Cat 3b
landings were in operation when I was a kid.
Someone still has to be watching for other aircraft and
otherwise flying the plane. In other words, the pilot is
responsible for flying the plane, with or without the
autopilot.

Yes, that\'s the original idea of a plane autopilot. But modern
ones are more sophisticated and handle course changes along the
planned route, as well as being able to land automatically. And
more important than what plane autopilots actually /do/, is what
people /think/ they do - and remember we are talking about
drivers that think their Tesla \"autopilot\" will drive their car
while they watch a movie or nap in the back seat.
And, to put it kindly, aren\'t discouraged in that misapprehension
by the statements of the cars\' manufacturers and salesdroids.

Now, what\'s the best set of techniques to get that concept into the
heads of twats that think \"autopilot\" means \"it does it for me\".

That\'s Tom Gardner level misinformation. Comments about what people
think are spurious and unsubstantiated. A class of \"twats\" can be
invented that think anything. Nothing matters other than what Tesla
owners think. They are the ones driving the cars.

Are you suggesting that none of the people who drive Teslas are twats?
(Maybe that term is too British for you.)

The term is too BS for me. A twat is whoever you want them to be. For all I know, you think everyone who drives a Tesla is a twat. How about if we discuss facts rather than BS?


It means \"a stupid person\" or \"someone who does stupid things\". No, not
everyone who drives a Tesla is a twat - but /some/ are, such as those
that think their autopilot will drive the car without them paying attention.
The term \"autopilot\" kind of suggests you can do precisely that,
though.
I don\'t like these half-baked ideas. Don\'t call a self-driving car
that until it\'s *truly* and *safely* autonymous. The worst situation
is giving the driver a false sense of security - which is where we are
currently.

In the Tesla \"autopilot\", \"full self driving\" and autonomous are three different things. Autopilot is what you can buy and use today. The information on it clearly says you are responsible for driving the vehicle and this is just an \"assist\". In particular, the car will sound an alarm if you don\'t maintain a detectable grip on the steering wheel. Full self driving (FSD) is a future product that a few are allowed to beta test. I\'ve never seen anything that suggests you do not need to be in control of the car when using FSD. Tesla does not use the term autonomous other than when Musk is talking about the indefinite future.

If you ignore what a company tells you about the limitations of its products, that\'s on you. It puts you in the category of people who sue ladder companies because they didn\'t tell you to not use it in a pig pen.

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Tom Gardner]

I know this road well. The speed limit is 20mph, but during the
day 5-10mph is typical.

Given that, the depth to which the Tesla is buried is surprising.

I wonder what will be determined to be the cause of the accident.
(There are many electric scooters around there, some legal,
many not)

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/tesla-goes-flying-window-shop-6905246

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 18:17:42 +0100, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

I know this road well. The speed limit is 20mph, but during the
day 5-10mph is typical.

Given that, the depth to which the Tesla is buried is surprising.

I wonder what will be determined to be the cause of the accident.
(There are many electric scooters around there, some legal,
many not)

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/tesla-goes-flying-window-shop-6905246

Lucky *that* one didn\'t burst into flames!

From your source, I see the eco-loons have been out and about
\'encouraging people\' to give up their cars:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/rolls-royce-filton-attack-e-6901425?int_source=nba

All in the cause of a healthy climate, of course. :-/

 

[Flyguy]

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 4:33:41 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:

On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 8:19:43 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 18:59:33 +0200, David Brown
david...@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 01/04/2022 18:39, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:12:26 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
On 01/04/2022 14:42, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 8:19:31 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/22 23:39, David Brown wrote:
On 01/04/2022 00:29, Ricky wrote:

Sorry, that\'s not how an autopilot works. It doesn\'t fly the
plane. It simply maintains a heading and altitude.
They have been doing more than that for for > 50 years. Cat 3b
landings were in operation when I was a kid.
Someone still has to be watching for other aircraft and
otherwise flying the plane. In other words, the pilot is
responsible for flying the plane, with or without the
autopilot.

Yes, that\'s the original idea of a plane autopilot. But modern
ones are more sophisticated and handle course changes along the
planned route, as well as being able to land automatically. And
more important than what plane autopilots actually /do/, is what
people /think/ they do - and remember we are talking about
drivers that think their Tesla \"autopilot\" will drive their car
while they watch a movie or nap in the back seat.
And, to put it kindly, aren\'t discouraged in that misapprehension
by the statements of the cars\' manufacturers and salesdroids.

Now, what\'s the best set of techniques to get that concept into the
heads of twats that think \"autopilot\" means \"it does it for me\".

That\'s Tom Gardner level misinformation. Comments about what people
think are spurious and unsubstantiated. A class of \"twats\" can be
invented that think anything. Nothing matters other than what Tesla
owners think. They are the ones driving the cars.

Are you suggesting that none of the people who drive Teslas are twats?
(Maybe that term is too British for you.)

The term is too BS for me. A twat is whoever you want them to be. For all I know, you think everyone who drives a Tesla is a twat. How about if we discuss facts rather than BS?


It means \"a stupid person\" or \"someone who does stupid things\". No, not
everyone who drives a Tesla is a twat - but /some/ are, such as those
that think their autopilot will drive the car without them paying attention.
The term \"autopilot\" kind of suggests you can do precisely that,
though.
I don\'t like these half-baked ideas. Don\'t call a self-driving car
that until it\'s *truly* and *safely* autonymous. The worst situation
is giving the driver a false sense of security - which is where we are
currently.
In the Tesla \"autopilot\", \"full self driving\" and autonomous are three different things. Autopilot is what you can buy and use today. The information on it clearly says you are responsible for driving the vehicle and this is just an \"assist\". In particular, the car will sound an alarm if you don\'t maintain a detectable grip on the steering wheel. Full self driving (FSD) is a future product that a few are allowed to beta test. I\'ve never seen anything that suggests you do not need to be in control of the car when using FSD. Tesla does not use the term autonomous other than when Musk is talking about the indefinite future.

If you ignore what a company tells you about the limitations of its products, that\'s on you. It puts you in the category of people who sue ladder companies because they didn\'t tell you to not use it in a pig pen.

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

This falls into the category of it can either do it or it can\'t, and the Tesla \"autopilot\" can\'t. Anything that is actively driving the car but ISN\'T driving the car legally is, by definition, a fraud.