EV charging on GFCI...

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:34:12 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid....@downunder.com wrote:
On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am using the portable charger on friend\'s house, but it\'s tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current
leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a
direct physical leakage to surrounding ground.

Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire?
Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow
electricians to charge more for each fixture they install.
Likewise, those pesky *fuses*!

The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*?

Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost?
A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of
both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in,
the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already
have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play
well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.”

https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf
Duh. You aren\'t supposed to cascade GFCI\'s. (And, actually, AFCI\'s are
now the new norm)

The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven\'t realized that
ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and
designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup!

Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when
you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just
washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet,
instead?)

[If you\'re like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT
the outlet]

Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI.
So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed?

Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they
designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL
be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly,
someone didn\'t understand their application!
his \"charger\" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum
No, it\'s a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together?
isn\'t it the GFCI in the house that trips?

I believe the GFCI in the device is part of the spec. I looked into building my own a few years back. It doesn\'t save much money, so I dropped the idea. But, the GFCI is in every EVSE you can buy.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Don Y]

On 8/8/2023 9:21 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven\'t realized that
ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and
designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup!

afaik RCDs are mandatory in EU, at least it is here. Though they are not like the US, they are at
the fuse panel and ~30mA. So I\'m sure the manufacturers have thought about it

In the US, you can take the \"cheap\" (aftermarket) way of adding GFCI to
a branch circuit by purchasing an outlet with GFCI capability. To be
effective, it must be wired as the first device on the (typically
daisy-chained) branch circuit. Downstream devices are connected to
a separate set of terminals so those loads are guaranteed to pass
through the GFCI (typically, the downstream loads are wired to a
second set of terminals IN PARALLEL with the supply feed. Or,
better, are tied to the feed with wirenuts and the local outlet fed
via a pigtail.)

[Wirenut-pigtail approach is more resilient as simply using the
\"second set\" of screw terminals on a device often leads to a
connection that loosens, over time, and ALL of the downstream
loads pass through this connection. The pigtail approach keeps
the \"supply\" intact to all devices so any loosening of a connection
only affects THAT device. GFCI\'s often fail from conditions
like this (or, moisture infiltration). And, the \"back stab\"
connections are absolutely ludicrous!]

The problem with GFCI outlets is loads that are not \"outlets\".

Alternatively, a GFCI (or AFCI, nowadays) circuit breaker can be
installed in the load center to protect everything on the branch circuit.

[You can also buy extension cords with GFCIs in-line]

Code requires branch circuits that serve garages, outdoor locations,
kitchen counters, bathrooms, laundry and basements to be GFCI protected.
If water MIGHT be present, expect a GFCI to be reuired.

(AFCI protection is now required for bedrooms, IIRC).

[I think there is an exception for outlets located 8 or more feet
above the floor... so, the outlet that typ powers your garage door
opener need not be GFCI-protected. Or, the spotlights that illuminate
your yard, ceiling fans, etc.]

So, unless you plan on charging your vehicle in your living room,
attic, dining room, etc. you can expect it to be powered by a GFCI
protected circuit.

One would think that the folks designing these chargers would be aware
of this and take steps to ensure nuisance trips aren\'t an issue.
Otherwise, folks will resort to practices that disable/bypass those
protections (like removing the failed battery from a smoke-detector
to silence it, thereby defeating the purpose of the device).

[Do people still cut the third prong (earth) off of power cords
because they have an outlet that doesn\'t have an earth connection??]

> VFDs and other big switchers are notorious for tripping RCDs, they don\'t like DC

 

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:35:42 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:34:12 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am using the portable charger on friend\'s house, but it\'s tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current
leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a
direct physical leakage to surrounding ground.

Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire?
Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow
electricians to charge more for each fixture they install.
Likewise, those pesky *fuses*!

The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*?

Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost?
A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of
both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in,
the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already
have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play
well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.”

https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf
Duh. You aren\'t supposed to cascade GFCI\'s. (And, actually, AFCI\'s are
now the new norm)

The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven\'t realized that
ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and
designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup!

Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when
you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just
washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet,
instead?)

[If you\'re like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT
the outlet]

Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI.
So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed?

Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they
designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL
be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly,
someone didn\'t understand their application!
his \"charger\" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum
No, it\'s a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together?
isn\'t it the GFCI in the house that trips?
Yes, because the GFCI in the charger is leaking.

It\'s leaking? Do you clean it up with a mop?

What is the EVSE leaking to? What makes you think it is \"leaking\"?

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Eddy Lee]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:41:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:35:42 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:34:12 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am using the portable charger on friend\'s house, but it\'s tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current
leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a
direct physical leakage to surrounding ground.

Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire?
Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow
electricians to charge more for each fixture they install.
Likewise, those pesky *fuses*!

The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*?

Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost?
A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of
both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in,
the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already
have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play
well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.”

https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf
Duh. You aren\'t supposed to cascade GFCI\'s. (And, actually, AFCI\'s are
now the new norm)

The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven\'t realized that
ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and
designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup!

Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when
you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just
washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet,
instead?)

[If you\'re like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT
the outlet]

Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI.
So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed?

Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they
designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL
be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly,
someone didn\'t understand their application!
his \"charger\" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum
No, it\'s a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together?
isn\'t it the GFCI in the house that trips?
Yes, because the GFCI in the charger is leaking.
It\'s leaking? Do you clean it up with a mop?

With an electronic mop.

> What is the EVSE leaking to? What makes you think it is \"leaking\"?

It might be some biasing circuit to detect GFCI, but big enough to trigger an external GFCI.

 

[Eddy Lee]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:49:35 AM UTC-7, Eddy Lee wrote:

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:41:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:35:42 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:34:12 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am using the portable charger on friend\'s house, but it\'s tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current
leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a
direct physical leakage to surrounding ground.

Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire?
Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow
electricians to charge more for each fixture they install.
Likewise, those pesky *fuses*!

The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*?

Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost?
A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of
both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in,
the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already
have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play
well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.”

https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf
Duh. You aren\'t supposed to cascade GFCI\'s. (And, actually, AFCI\'s are
now the new norm)

The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven\'t realized that
ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and
designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup!

Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when
you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just
washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet,
instead?)

[If you\'re like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT
the outlet]

Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI.
So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed?

Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they
designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL
be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly,
someone didn\'t understand their application!
his \"charger\" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum
No, it\'s a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together?
isn\'t it the GFCI in the house that trips?
Yes, because the GFCI in the charger is leaking.
It\'s leaking? Do you clean it up with a mop?
With an electronic mop.
What is the EVSE leaking to? What makes you think it is \"leaking\"?
It might be some biasing circuit to detect GFCI, but big enough to trigger an external GFCI.

One option is to ground the car itself, instead of the charger, and see what happen.

 

[Buzz McCool]

On 8/8/2023 9:40 AM, Don Y wrote:
> ... so, the outlet that typ powers your garage door opener need not be GFCI-protected.

Very interesting. I\'m going to see if that\'s the case in my garage.
Thanks Don!

 

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:49:35 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:41:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:35:42 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:34:12 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am using the portable charger on friend\'s house, but it\'s tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current
leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a
direct physical leakage to surrounding ground.

Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire?
Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow
electricians to charge more for each fixture they install.
Likewise, those pesky *fuses*!

The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*?

Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost?
A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of
both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in,
the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already
have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play
well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.”

https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf
Duh. You aren\'t supposed to cascade GFCI\'s. (And, actually, AFCI\'s are
now the new norm)

The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven\'t realized that
ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and
designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup!

Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when
you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just
washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet,
instead?)

[If you\'re like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT
the outlet]

Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI.
So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed?

Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they
designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL
be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly,
someone didn\'t understand their application!
his \"charger\" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum
No, it\'s a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together?
isn\'t it the GFCI in the house that trips?
Yes, because the GFCI in the charger is leaking.
It\'s leaking? Do you clean it up with a mop?
With an electronic mop.
What is the EVSE leaking to? What makes you think it is \"leaking\"?
It might be some biasing circuit to detect GFCI, but big enough to trigger an external GFCI.

\"Biasing circuit\"??? The GFCI has a toroid transformer core with both power leads are wound through. There is also a sense winding. As long as the current in the power leads is balanced, there is no net flux and no current in the sense line. When unbalanced, a current is generated in the sense line which is detected and used to trip a relay.

There is no biasing.

I know learning about stuff is not your strong point. Your \"go to\" approach is to invent ideas of how things work, rather than doing some research and learning. I especially like that you used Google to find some electrician who shares your erroneous beliefs. \"don’t play well together\" That\'s the sort of professional language I like to hear.

Unfortunately, I can\'t find any info on this from anyone who knows what they are talking about.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:52:55 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:49:35 AM UTC-7, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:41:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:35:42 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:34:12 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am using the portable charger on friend\'s house, but it\'s tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current
leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a
direct physical leakage to surrounding ground.

Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire?
Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow
electricians to charge more for each fixture they install.
Likewise, those pesky *fuses*!

The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*?

Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost?
A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of
both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in,
the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already
have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play
well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.”

https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf
Duh. You aren\'t supposed to cascade GFCI\'s. (And, actually, AFCI\'s are
now the new norm)

The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven\'t realized that
ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and
designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup!

Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when
you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just
washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet,
instead?)

[If you\'re like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT
the outlet]

Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI.
So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed?

Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they
designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL
be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly,
someone didn\'t understand their application!
his \"charger\" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum
No, it\'s a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together?
isn\'t it the GFCI in the house that trips?
Yes, because the GFCI in the charger is leaking.
It\'s leaking? Do you clean it up with a mop?
With an electronic mop.
What is the EVSE leaking to? What makes you think it is \"leaking\"?
It might be some biasing circuit to detect GFCI, but big enough to trigger an external GFCI.
One option is to ground the car itself, instead of the charger, and see what happen.

The car is grounded through the EVSE. This is why you are not allowed to play with sharp objects. You want to try all manner of things, rather than learning about something first.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Eddy Lee]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 10:46:42 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:49:35 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:41:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 12:35:42 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:34:12 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am using the portable charger on friend\'s house, but it\'s tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current
leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a
direct physical leakage to surrounding ground.

Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire?
Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow
electricians to charge more for each fixture they install.
Likewise, those pesky *fuses*!

The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*?

Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost?
A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of
both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in,
the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already
have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play
well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.”

https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf
Duh. You aren\'t supposed to cascade GFCI\'s. (And, actually, AFCI\'s are
now the new norm)

The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven\'t realized that
ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and
designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup!

Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when
you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just
washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet,
instead?)

[If you\'re like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT
the outlet]

Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI.
So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed?

Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they
designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL
be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly,
someone didn\'t understand their application!
his \"charger\" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum
No, it\'s a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together?
isn\'t it the GFCI in the house that trips?
Yes, because the GFCI in the charger is leaking.
It\'s leaking? Do you clean it up with a mop?
With an electronic mop.
What is the EVSE leaking to? What makes you think it is \"leaking\"?
It might be some biasing circuit to detect GFCI, but big enough to trigger an external GFCI.
\"Biasing circuit\"??? The GFCI has a toroid transformer core with both power leads are wound through. There is also a sense winding. As long as the current in the power leads is balanced, there is no net flux and no current in the sense line. When unbalanced, a current is generated in the sense line which is detected and used to trip a relay.

Yes, this is one way.

There is no biasing.

I know learning about stuff is not your strong point. Your \"go to\" approach is to invent ideas of how things work, rather than doing some research and learning. I especially like that you used Google to find some electrician who shares your erroneous beliefs. \"don’t play well together\" That\'s the sort of professional language I like to hear.

Unfortunately, I can\'t find any info on this from anyone who knows what they are talking about.

Who knows what other ways they are doing.

> The car is grounded through the EVSE.

Yes, I mean grounding the J1772 plug side of the EVSE, rather than the power side of the EVSE.

> This is why you are not allowed to play with sharp objects. You want to try all manner of things, rather than learning about something first.

So, i am allowed to play with HV, which is not sharp.

 

[Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund]

On 07-08-2023 04:51, Eddy Lee wrote:

I am using the portable charger on friend\'s house, but it\'s tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?

The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive?

Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet?

It\'s been a long time since I heard of it, but a colleague of mine had
the issue on US mains fed systems feeding inverter drives. AFAIR it was
due to the y capacitor in the drive that was not symmetrical, so when
the inrush control fed current into the DC link capacitor, it would
charge the y capacitors unsymmetric depending on where the turn on was
done on the mains curve.

I guess, some GFCIs can be tripped by high differential inrush currents
if the DMRR is not perfect (Differential Mode Rejection Ratio, first
time I used that term)

 

[Don Y]

On 8/8/2023 9:27 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed?

Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they
designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL
be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly,
someone didn\'t understand their application!

his \"charger\" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held
together with zipties and chewing gum

Prolly. :<

Or, a dozen tiny $5 chargers working in parallel...

People forget that wire isn\'t just \"wire\". And that outlets (receptacles)
aren\'t just \"connection points\".

I had a helluva time getting the branch circuit that feeds the outdoor
outlets along the back of the house to be \"stable\" (powers the XMAS lights
that we use on the citrus trees). Prolly 120 ft from the load center
with loads (albeit small) -- each ~75 ft long (strings of 9W bulbs) -- on
the end of 100 ft extension cords.

I seriously reconsidered running the power DIRECTLY out to the individual
trees, below grade. But, the idea of outlets poking up out of the soil
was really visually unappealing.

OTOH, the outlets in the garage are *technically* at ceiling level
and don\'t require such protection. *But*, I\'ve installed retractable
coil reels at each so you can pull an outlet down to use it -- too bad,
so sad if you\'re short! :> (accessing the outlets along the wall is
impractical as we have floor to ceiling shelving, throughout).

So, my own \"best interests\" suggested putting that branch circuit on
GFCI, too!

[ObTrivia: The length of a claw hammer\'s handle is a good yardstick
for locating wall outlets above the floor level! (easy enough to verify
before employing as such]

[[And, of course, there\'s the inevitable \"smiley face up vs. smiley face
down\" argument! :> ]]

 

[Don Y]

On 8/8/2023 10:40 AM, Buzz McCool wrote:

On 8/8/2023 9:40 AM, Don Y wrote:
... so, the outlet that typ powers your garage door opener need not be
GFCI-protected.

Very interesting. I\'m going to see if that\'s the case in my garage. Thanks Don!

Often, they just tack it onto the lighting circuit for the garage
as the motor is a relatively small load.

 

[ehsjr]

On 8/8/2023 12:35 PM, Ricky wrote:

<snip>

My understanding is the GFCI is just a toroid with both power leads wound through it so that is is sensitive to the difference in current only. This is sensed by an amplifier and used to control a relay. I can\'t see how cascading these would cause any problem.

That is the essence, but it\'s a bit more complex than that.
A GFCI detects a difference (of about 5ma or more) in current
between the line conductor and the neutral conductor as you
described. It also can detect a neutral to ground short on the
load side, if one exists. See page 6 of the datasheet:
https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Texas%20Instruments%20PDFs/LM1851.pdf

I don\'t know if that applies to all GFCI\'s - I suspect it does.
And I don\'t know if is a factor in the EV charging problem
discussed in the thread.

Ed

 

[David Lesher]

I\'m aware of a similar situation.

Using Pentair pool pumps requires using one and only one brand
of GFI breaker. I believe it\'s a Siemons; I know Square-D\'s will
keep tripping.


--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that\'s close..........................
Unless the host (that isn\'t close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

 

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 5:59:01 PM UTC-4, ehsjr wrote:

On 8/8/2023 12:35 PM, Ricky wrote:

snip
My understanding is the GFCI is just a toroid with both power leads wound through it so that is is sensitive to the difference in current only. This is sensed by an amplifier and used to control a relay. I can\'t see how cascading these would cause any problem.

That is the essence, but it\'s a bit more complex than that.
A GFCI detects a difference (of about 5ma or more) in current
between the line conductor and the neutral conductor as you
described. It also can detect a neutral to ground short on the
load side, if one exists. See page 6 of the datasheet:
https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Texas%20Instruments%20PDFs/LM1851.pdf

I don\'t know if that applies to all GFCI\'s - I suspect it does.
And I don\'t know if is a factor in the EV charging problem
discussed in the thread.

I have dug around for a long time, looking for an answer about the cause of this problem and I have yet to find one. The worst sources seem to be the people who install them. One electrician has a document on his web site, where he claims 60% of such devices will fail when used in tandem. That seems rather high, given that the vast majority of EVSEs installed to an outlet, will have such a double GFCI. If it were true that they fail in 60% of installations, this would be a more widely known issue, with a well known solution.

I found a discussion on a Tesla forum where is it claimed that replacing the upstream GFCI virtually always fixes the problem.

I would not be inclined to forego the GFCI on any receptacle. It saves lives. That\'s why it\'s in the NEMA code. They continue to look at how people are injured and die, and find ways to prevent those deaths. Some people think they know better, so are happy to ignore what the experts say. It will be too bad, when Ed fries himself, and there is no video of it.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[server]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 09:35:37 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
<eddy711lee@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:34:12?AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.32.35 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:27:15?AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 18.23.31 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/8/2023 9:15 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 9:06:41?AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/8/2023 8:25 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 1:10:48?AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/7/2023 6:35 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:42:42?AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 19:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am using the portable charger on friend\'s house, but it\'s tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
Is the charger connected to a grounded mains socket ? Any current
leaking from the L to PE can cause CFCI problems. You do not need a
direct physical leakage to surrounding ground.

Yes, would it be better not to connect the ground wire?
Yeah, silly third wire no doubt put there just to allow
electricians to charge more for each fixture they install.
Likewise, those pesky *fuses*!

The GFCI is telling you something. Why not *listen*?

Q: WHAT’S THE PROBLEM with outlets on GFCI breakers – aside from cost?
A: About 60% of the time, we find that EV chargers WILL NOT WORK on a GFCI breaker (true of
both wall mount and “mobile connectors”). In those cases, when an EV charger is plugged in,
the breaker trips (and won’t reset with the unit plugged in). This is because all EVSE already
have GFCI technology built-in, and the two devices (GFCI breaker and GFCI charger) don’t play
well together. This is an extreme version of the problem known as “nuisance tripping.”

https://www.williamselectric.net/documents/FAQs-NEMA-1450-outlets-pkg-20210919.pdf
Duh. You aren\'t supposed to cascade GFCI\'s. (And, actually, AFCI\'s are
now the new norm)

The fact that the folks designing the chargers haven\'t realized that
ALL OUTDOOR/GARAGE OUTLETS ARE EXPECTED TO BE GFCI PROTECTED and
designed their chargers accordingly sure seems like a colossal fuckup!

Remove the GFCI from your garage. Then, wait to get electrocuted when
you plug in your vacuum cleaner to finish cleaning the car you just
washed. Ooops! (Maybe you should plug your charger into a BEDROOM outlet,
instead?)

[If you\'re like us, your GFCI protection is in the load center, NOT
the outlet]

Yes, this will come up again in another house. I am going to try to add a switch to by-pass the internal GFCI.
So, YOU have decided that the internal GFCI is not needed?

Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them why they
designed a product that in 99% of usage models WILL
be connected to a GFCI yet trips unexpectedly? Clearly,
someone didn\'t understand their application!
his \"charger\" is probably a pile of random electronic scrap held together with zipties and chewing gum
No, it\'s a commercial sealed unit. You think i would bother with GFCI if I put scraps together?

Is it made in China or some other exotic places ? They all know how to
seal units so that the user can not check how bad the circuit is

>> isn\'t it the GFCI in the house that trips?

What is the tripping current for the in-house GFCI ? 5 mA or 30 mA ?

If the charger was originally designed for 30 mA GFCI, the mains EMC
filters might have too large capacitors from L to PE and thus the
leakage is too large.

It is also possible that the manufacturer did not pass the EMC test
and simply added the capacitor values to pass the test. Passing the
test without tripping the GFCI might mean that an inductor or two had
to be added to the mains filter, but that might be too expensive .

>Yes, because the GFCI in the charger is leaking.

Why would the GFCI leak ?

Does it have a \"TEST\" button ? Pressing this button will connect a
largish resistor from L to PE and trip the charger GFCI. If pressing
the in-house GFCI but not the charger GFCI, the in-house GFCI is more
sensitive (5 mA?) than the charger GFCI (30 mA?).

 

[Don Y]

On 8/9/2023 2:11 AM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

Why would the GFCI leak ?

Does it have a \"TEST\" button ? Pressing this button will connect a
largish resistor from L to PE and trip the charger GFCI. If pressing
the in-house GFCI but not the charger GFCI, the in-house GFCI is more
sensitive (5 mA?) than the charger GFCI (30 mA?).

GFCIs, in the US, are intended to trip on a nominal 5mA load imbalance.
GFCEs raise that threshold to 30mA. There are several other \"applications\"
with their own specific limits.

The Code is constantly changing wrt protection devices as more and
more technologies come on line in \"proven\" ways. E.g., GFCIs were
initially only required for protecting underwater lighting in swimming
pools. Then, spread to outdoor receptacles, in general... bathrooms,
garages, spas/jacuzzi, basements, sink-adjacent, countertops, drinking
fountains, etc.

The same sort of proliferation is now taking place with AFCIs

[There have recently been code changes that required them on 240V
circuits \"near\" sinks -- which typically means electric stoves/ovens.
AFAICT, this is under review as those tend to have nuisance trips.]

The problem with GFCIs is they tend to be finicky about their
installation. Esp GFCI receptacles (which homeowners think
themselves capable of installing). And, its too easy for folks to
have problems with GFCIs leading to their being \"defeated\" (or
simply not used, negating their intended protections)

Here, the local AHJ is... \"god\", when it comes to these matters.
And, usually \"protected\" in that role. So, if of a particular
opinion, then that opinion is \"law\"!

[Try asking for a definitive opinion on *where* smoke detectors are
*required* -- and PROHIBITED!]

 

[server]

On Wed, 09 Aug 2023 12:11:20 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

What is the tripping current for the in-house GFCI ? 5 mA or 30 mA ?

If the charger was originally designed for 30 mA GFCI, the mains EMC
filters might have too large capacitors from L to PE and thus the
leakage is too large.

It is also possible that the manufacturer did not pass the EMC test
and simply added the capacitor values to pass the test. Passing the
test without tripping the GFCI might mean that an inductor or two had
to be added to the mains filter, but that might be too expensive .

If you have a 100 nF Y-capacitor (L to PE), on 60 Hz it has a
reactance of 27 kohm. Applying 120 V to it and 4.5 mA will flow. If
the GFCI nominally trips at 5 mA but consider tolerances in the trip
current, capacitance, voltage etc. I would not be surprised if the
GFCI sometimes works and sometimes trips.

I know that 100 nF is too big for a Y-capacitor and few manufacturers
make this big Y-capacitors, but who knows if the charger manufacturer
has put multiple smaller in parallel between L and PE to get the
EMC values approved.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 22.32.08 UTC+2 skrev Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund:

On 07-08-2023 04:51, Eddy Lee wrote:
I am using the portable charger on friend\'s house, but it\'s tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?

The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive?

Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet?
It\'s been a long time since I heard of it, but a colleague of mine had
the issue on US mains fed systems feeding inverter drives. AFAIR it was
due to the y capacitor in the drive that was not symmetrical, so when
the inrush control fed current into the DC link capacitor, it would
charge the y capacitors unsymmetric depending on where the turn on was
done on the mains curve.

inverter drives sometime have quite few conditions for use with an RCD

page 28, https://cache.industry.siemens.com/dl/files/400/24523400/att_33783/v1/420_OPI_24523400_en_1006.pdf

 

[Chris B]

\"Lasse Langwadt Christensen\" <langwadt@fonz.dk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:85674d6d-84f6-4c33-bfa5-e6c0f191740an@googlegroups.com...

tirsdag den 8. august 2023 kl. 22.32.08 UTC+2 skrev Klaus Vestergaard
Kragelund:
On 07-08-2023 04:51, Eddy Lee wrote:
I am using the portable charger on friend\'s house, but it\'s tripping
the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from
the ground with four rubber tires?

The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another
house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive?

Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet?
It\'s been a long time since I heard of it, but a colleague of mine had
the issue on US mains fed systems feeding inverter drives. AFAIR it was
due to the y capacitor in the drive that was not symmetrical, so when
the inrush control fed current into the DC link capacitor, it would
charge the y capacitors unsymmetric depending on where the turn on was
done on the mains curve.

inverter drives sometime have quite few conditions for use with an RCD

page 28,
https://cache.industry.siemens.com/dl/files/400/24523400/att_33783/v1/420_OPI_24523400_en_1006.pdf

In our part of EU, ground fault detection has been mandatory for decades.
Nowadays, requirements are evolving because users connect new types of
loads&equipment to the mains.

There are different types of RCD depending on which kind of fault current
they detect (also in historical order):
Type AC: only detects AC currents, not allowed anymore
Type A: also detects pulsed DC; commonly used now, works for most loads
Type F: increased frequency range, seldom use, for inverter drives
Type B: trips on pure DC currents, too; required for most inverters and
EV charging (needed because fault current could be from EV DC voltage)
DC current can also prevent correct funtion of the other RCD types by
saturating their coil.

To guarantee correct operation when cascading RCDs, there are a couple of
rules. They result in RCDs with different trip levels, delayed versions and
special RCD with low DC trip levels (to make sure upstream RCDs still work).