EU lead-free directive

[David Brown]

Robert Latest wrote:

On 2005-06-01, David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:


That certainly seems to apply to the more inexplicable exceptions (lead
is allowed in servers, storage devices, and network infrastructure devices).


This is plenty explicable. The manufacturers of this equipment
claim (with some validity) that there isn't much known about the
long-term stability of the lead-free stuff, and since companies
and governments and whatnot rely on reliable IT infrastructure
they can't run the risk of switching over to a new technology.

robert

What about the rest of us that make electronics designed to last for
decades? I fully understand the desire to remove lead from throw-away
electronics, of which there is more and more these days. But there is a
lot electronics produced that is a lot harder to replace than a network
switch, or with greater consequences of failure than a typical server.
A far more practical arrangement than a blanket ban on lead, except for
groups with loud lobbyists, would have been a tax on lead-containing
electronics along with obligatory marking of such cards. The tax would
start small, and increase over the years, and be used to finance
recycling plants. Then mass manufacturers would use lead-free to save
their profits, while smaller and specialist manufacturers could choose.

 

[Peter]

Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com> wrote:

This is plenty explicable. The manufacturers of this equipment
claim (with some validity) that there isn't much known about the
long-term stability of the lead-free stuff, and since companies
and governments and whatnot rely on reliable IT infrastructure
they can't run the risk of switching over to a new technology.

That is very strange - what about industrial electronics; that has to
last much longer than the average piece of IT gear.

What *is* known about lead-free solders, in the SMT context, is that
their lack of surface tension makes the reflow process more critical,
and one could do without that. SMT is a difficult process already,
requiring everything to be spot on right. Unlike PTH soldering.

 

[John Devereux]

z180@nospam24.com (Peter) writes:

Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com> wrote:

This is plenty explicable. The manufacturers of this equipment
claim (with some validity) that there isn't much known about the
long-term stability of the lead-free stuff, and since companies
and governments and whatnot rely on reliable IT infrastructure
they can't run the risk of switching over to a new technology.

That is very strange - what about industrial electronics; that has to
last much longer than the average piece of IT gear.

As I understand it, Industrial electronics appears to be exempt from
the RoHS directive, at present. (But not from the WEEE one).

What *is* known about lead-free solders, in the SMT context, is that
their lack of surface tension makes the reflow process more critical,
and one could do without that. SMT is a difficult process already,
requiring everything to be spot on right. Unlike PTH soldering.

Agreed.

--

John Devereux

 

[Peter]

John Devereux <jdREMOVE@THISdevereux.me.uk> wrote:

That is very strange - what about industrial electronics; that has to
last much longer than the average piece of IT gear.

As I understand it, Industrial electronics appears to be exempt from
the RoHS directive, at present. (But not from the WEEE one).

Hmmm. Interesting! Is there a reference to this somewhere? Currently,
every customer is sending us a list of questions about this. Would
"industrial" be anything "professional" e.g. professional broadcast
equipment?

What is WEEE?

 

[John Devereux]

z180@nospam24.com (Peter) writes:

John Devereux <jdREMOVE@THISdevereux.me.uk> wrote:

That is very strange - what about industrial electronics; that has to
last much longer than the average piece of IT gear.

As I understand it, Industrial electronics appears to be exempt from
the RoHS directive, at present. (But not from the WEEE one).

Hmmm. Interesting! Is there a reference to this somewhere? Currently,
every customer is sending us a list of questions about this. Would
"industrial" be anything "professional" e.g. professional broadcast
equipment?

Hi Peter,

Checkout the "Re: A european question : RoHS" thread (in S.E.D). Links
to the directives are:

<http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat/2003/l_037/l_03720030213en00190023.pdf>

and

<http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat/2003/l_037/l_03720030213en00240038.pdf>

See Article 2 section 1 of RoHS, which refers to Annex IA of the WEEE
document.

What is WEEE?

I am *so* not an expert on this.... But as I understand it, WEEE is
about making sure manufacturers bear the cost of recycling products
made with "hazardous" substances. For example, by providing recyling
schemes, collecting the unwanted items etc.

RoHS on the other hand *prohibits* such manufacture in the first
place, with some exceptions. It appears that industrial equipment is
one such!

--

John Devereux

 

[Tilmann Reh]

Peter schrieb:

What is WEEE?

"Waste of Eletrical and Electronic Equipment" - another new EU directive.

Basically, it is about that manufacturers of EE products must guarantie to take
them back without cost. They also must be marked as devices that shall not be
dropped into "normal" waste.
This one applies to the companies that first sell anything to the (normally
private) end customer, B2B is less concerned (if at all).

There surely are online documents about it, but I don't have links at hand...

--
Dipl.-Ing. Tilmann Reh
http://www.autometer.de - Elektronik nach Maß.

 

[Dave Hansen]

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:48:43 +0100, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com>
wrote:

Bryan Hackney wrote:

a) Lead batteries should be highly regulated


Yes, a deposit on them, say $400. You pay it once, and redeem it by
handing in the old battery. Like we used to do with bottles in the 60s.

FWIW, here in Michigan, there is a core charge for lead-acid car
batteries, though I believe it's much less than $400. I'm not sure of
the exact amount, because the core cancels when you replace a battery
(here's my old one, give me a new one).

[...]

Shouldn't be too difficult to extract the lead from PCBs, if the
political will is there (roast them at 300 degrees in a centrifuge?) We
need to encourage recovery and re-use over dumping anyway.

PCB metals recycling has been around a long time. Usually, though,
they're after stuff more valuable than lead.

Regards,

-=Dave
--
Change is inevitable, progress is not.

 

[Jim Stewart]

Luhan Monat wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Hello Luhan,

IEEE code of ethics? I'll just have to look that one up. ...



It's here:

http://www.ieee.org/portal/site/mainsite/menuitem.818c0c39e85ef176fb2275875bac26c8/index.jsp?&pName=corp_level1&path=about/whatis&file=code.xml&xsl=generic.xsl


... Basically, if a
client wanted a 'marital aid' with 'midi in', I would just quote them
the cost to make a 'working prototype'.



ROFL!

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com


Thanks, I have never seen that. Looks like how I work anyway. Except
the 'bribery' part. We needed the use of a TV studio once, but the
engineer didn't work weekends. So we scheduled 4 hours studio time on
Saturday, paid for the studio time, and slipped 2 nice crisp $100 bills
to the engineer. He says 'any time guys'.

Sometimes the wheels of capitalism work better with a bit of lubrication.

That wasn't a bribe, just some casual compensation.
You didn't pay him to do anything unlawful. Of course
I'm not a lawyer and that's not legal advise

 

[Pooh Bear]

Luhan Monat wrote:

Thanks, I have never seen that. Looks like how I work anyway. Except
the 'bribery' part. We needed the use of a TV studio once, but the
engineer didn't work weekends. So we scheduled 4 hours studio time on
Saturday, paid for the studio time, and slipped 2 nice crisp $100 bills
to the engineer. He says 'any time guys'.

Sometimes the wheels of capitalism work better with a bit of lubrication.

In India you can pay 'rush money' to get the wheels of bureaucracy to speed up a little. It's apparently considered perfectly acceptable. Oh - never mind the
business with customs at Bombay airport !

Graham

 

[Pooh Bear]

Paul Burke wrote:

Shouldn't be too difficult to extract the lead from PCBs, if the
political will is there (roast them at 300 degrees in a centrifuge?)

That probably produces dioxins !

I've seen stuff about 'recycling' pcbs and I can't believe there's any
sense in it.

Graham

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:56:36 +0100, the renowned Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Luhan Monat wrote:

Thanks, I have never seen that. Looks like how I work anyway. Except
the 'bribery' part. We needed the use of a TV studio once, but the
engineer didn't work weekends. So we scheduled 4 hours studio time on
Saturday, paid for the studio time, and slipped 2 nice crisp $100 bills
to the engineer. He says 'any time guys'.

Sometimes the wheels of capitalism work better with a bit of lubrication.

In India you can pay 'rush money' to get the wheels of bureaucracy to speed up a little. It's apparently considered perfectly acceptable. Oh - never mind the
business with customs at Bombay airport !

Graham

Yup, one of the irritating things for people who move from such places
to more "civilized" countries is that you often *can't* speed things
up by paying what is usually a pittance more. The civil servants are
unionized, relatively well paid and generally incorruptable.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Pooh Bear]

John Popelish wrote:

Tilmann Reh wrote:

Each material must be RoHS conform, for example contain less than 0.1% lead
(similar tresholds exist for the other "evil" substances).

As an example, often an IC is used: it consists of
a) the die itself
b) the leadframe
c) the expoxy encasing
d) the surface finish of the leads.

*Each* of these materials must conform to the RoHS directive.

Another example is a simple cable, where the metal wire is defined as a single
material and the plastic insulation as another material, and both must conform
to the RoHS limits.

For assembled boards, this extents to the PCB base material, its surface finish
(HAL) where it persists after soldering, the solder, and all parts (for those
see above).

What do you make of:

http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat/2003/l_037/l_03720030213en00190023.pdf

"Applications of lead, mercury, cadmium and hexavalent chromium, which
are exempted from the requirements of Article 4(1)...
7. — Lead in high melting temperature type solders (i.e. tin-lead
solder alloys containing more than 85 % lead)"

Why would they make an exception for solder that has over double the
lead of that most commonly used for electronics? Does this mean that
if producers of electronics can find a way to use 85% lead solder,
they are exempt?

I suspect, since I was looking at some RoHS stuff today, that's intended to allow
high lead solders for die attach in semiconductors.

I rather though that was *low* melting point though !

Check this out.

http://uk.farnell.com/images/en/ede/pdf/PKG153.pdf


Graham

 

[Jim Thompson]

Sort of a moot issue isn't it?

The Dutch just voted down the EU Constitution.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Pooh Bear]

Peter wrote:

John Devereux <jdREMOVE@THISdevereux.me.uk> wrote:

That is very strange - what about industrial electronics; that has to
last much longer than the average piece of IT gear.

As I understand it, Industrial electronics appears to be exempt from
the RoHS directive, at present. (But not from the WEEE one).

Hmmm. Interesting! Is there a reference to this somewhere? Currently,
every customer is sending us a list of questions about this. Would
"industrial" be anything "professional" e.g. professional broadcast
equipment?

What is WEEE?

Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment (WEEE) Directive.

Graham

 

[Pooh Bear]

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:56:36 +0100, the renowned Pooh Bear
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:



Luhan Monat wrote:

Thanks, I have never seen that. Looks like how I work anyway. Except
the 'bribery' part. We needed the use of a TV studio once, but the
engineer didn't work weekends. So we scheduled 4 hours studio time on
Saturday, paid for the studio time, and slipped 2 nice crisp $100 bills
to the engineer. He says 'any time guys'.

Sometimes the wheels of capitalism work better with a bit of lubrication.

In India you can pay 'rush money' to get the wheels of bureaucracy to speed up a little. It's apparently considered perfectly acceptable. Oh - never mind the
business with customs at Bombay airport !

Graham

Yup, one of the irritating things for people who move from such places
to more "civilized" countries is that you often *can't* speed things
up by paying what is usually a pittance more. The civil servants are
unionized, relatively well paid and generally incorruptable.

That is broadly true.

I was however quite impressed that when I once needed to - I was able to get a 'next day' passport by going to one of the Passport Offices ( London was the
nearest to me ) in person at no extra cost IIRC - other than my travel cost of course. Had to show my airline ticket though. In very urgent cases I believe they
can do 'same day' too !

Graham

 

[Joerg]

Hello Spehro,

Yup, one of the irritating things for people who move from such places
to more "civilized" countries is that you often *can't* speed things
up by paying what is usually a pittance more. The civil servants are
unionized, relatively well paid and generally incorruptable.

Usually but not always. This morning's paper in Sacramento reported
about one public servant who is going to "Club Fed" for six months.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[keith]

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:43:20 +0100, Paul Burke wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

AFAIUI, automotive lead-acid batteries are 96%+ domestically recycled
here (under stringent environmental controls).

Let's see, say a battery weighs 10kg, that 4% not recycled is 400g.
Assume 10 million are dumped each year in Europe. That's 4000000 tonnes
of dumped lead per annum.

You were expecting sanity?

I reckon the solder in a typical PCB is about 5g max. So my annual use
of lead is about 5kg max. There's room for 800 million small businesses
like mine before we equal the car battery. That should solve Europe's
unemployment problem!

They fixed that problem with ISO9000. There are 800 million jobs filing
paperwork now.

--
Keith

 

[Paul Burke]

Pooh Bear wrote:

I was however quite impressed that when I once needed to - I was able to get a 'next day' passport by going to one of the Passport Offices ( London was the
nearest to me ) in person at no extra cost IIRC..

Them was the days. I had to get one for Idiot Daughter last easter. The
quick passport now costs twice an ordinary one. Plus driving to
Liverpool, good job someone else had the hubcaps first...

Paul Burke

 

[Robert Latest]

On 2005-06-01, David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:

What about the rest of us that make electronics designed to last for
decades?

We don't have the lobby -- plain and simple. Like you say:

A far more practical arrangement than a blanket ban on lead, except for
groups with loud lobbyists, would have been a tax on lead-containing
electronics along with obligatory marking of such cards. The tax would
start small, and increase over the years, and be used to finance
recycling plants. Then mass manufacturers would use lead-free to save
their profits, while smaller and specialist manufacturers could choose.

This is the one thing that scars the industry more than a new
regulation -- something that might cut their profits, and, much
worse, might create an advantage for their more inventive
competition.

robert

 

[Alex Gibson]

"Peter" <z180@nospam24.com> wrote in message
news:unfo91l75645teuplpd7omgonj2nndst2m@4ax.com...

Hi,

This comes in mid-2006 and AIUI requires that lead content is below
0.1%.

Surely, one could achieve this by making the overall product heavier?

Or does it work on a per-circuit-board basis? In that case, the lead
in standard solder will probably weigh more than 0.1% of the weight of
the populated PCB....

This could be a serious problem for any company that is slowly running
down a stock of old chips. These won't be lead-free, and neither will
be any chips purchased from the many used chip vendors who pass on
surplus stock. I expect a lot of their business will dry up since many
companies are requiring *zero* lead content on *all* components.

Any views?

Ship the remaining parts somewhere that hasn't gone lead free yet.

Non-Eu countries in Europe.
Dump all the lead components to Bulgaria , Romania, Ukraine, Albania and
former Yugoslav countries.

or elsewhere
Asia , Australia ,Central and South America , Africa ?

Alex