Ethical question.

[Matthew Fries]

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:58:21 -0600, Jeffrey Angus
<jangus@suddenlink.net> wrote:

So, what to do?

Jeff

Get a lawyer. Ask them.


I remember several years ago, something similar happened to Pete
Townshend of "The Who". He brought his computer into a shop for
service and the tech squealed on him because there was some child
abuse photos on there.
Pete said that he was doing research because he had been abused when
he was young.

I think Pete got some sort of community service sentence, but that was
after a long legal proceeding. I remember feeling really pissed at the
tech who did that (and I'm sure Pete did as well).

All this happened in the UK, and my anger may have been misplaced if
there is some law that compells people to report this stuff, but my
instinct as a USian is not to go snooping, and if you did, don't let
on that you did (by reporting it).

BTW: to keep this on topic... What was the problem with the laptop
that made it not boot?

Thanks.


Remove the BALONEY from my email address.
-----------------------------------------------------
Matthew Fries Minneapolis, MN USA
freeze@baloneyvisi.com

"Quit eating all my *STUFF*!" - The Tick

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 1/7/2011 6:22 PM, Matthew Fries wrote:

I remember several years ago, something similar happened to Pete
Townshend of "The Who".

Uh-huh, Community service. Right. If it had been any of us,
we'd still be in prison.

BTW: to keep this on topic... What was the problem with the laptop
that made it not boot?

Actually the topic is ethical question.
But since you asked, video driver for a web cam. wrong
one, crashed the machine on boot.

And while I originally posted "tongue in cheek" about
snooping, the original problem was the web cam driver.
When I brought up the correct one to make sure it
worked, I took a picture, and it dropped it into the
"Bozo no no" zone where I went to check that it worked
properly.

Jeff

 

[Arfa Daily]

"PeterD" <peter2@hipson.net> wrote in message
news:a52fi6htrc69tmdk5mcdhjpnqijs1gj07q@4ax.com...

On Thu, 6 Jan 2011 18:59:37 +0000 (UTC), Meat Plow <mhywatt@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:58:21 -0600, Jeffrey Angus wrote:

Customer brings in a lap top. "Won't boot"

So you do the usual amount of diagnostics and knock a little sense back
into the machine.

Being nosy of course, you check out the pictures folder to see what
their kinks are.

Oh, my definitely a bozo no no there.....

So what do you do?
(Some answers giving below are tongue in cheek for the humor impaired.)

Act like nothing happened?

Congratulate them on their tastes?

Wipe the drive with something like bcwipe and give it back to them?

Spin up the drive separately and bang it against the desk repeatedly
until you knock a head loose?

Make copies for yourself?

Hand it over to the local police?

Give it back to the customer and turn them in after a few weeks?

Charge the customer extra and demand payment to keep quiet?

The two things that bother me the most are the police have a terrible
track record on anonymous and the lawyers like to claim that YOU put it
there.

So, what to do?

Jeff

I'll assume you found some child porn. If it were me I would hand it over
to the cops.

Assuming child porn, he may not have an option, but be required to
hand it over or face possible legal concequences. Consider this, a
week later, the guy is busted for something else, and the porn is
discovered... What are the odds that he will say "Wasn't on my
computer before I took it to ABC for service, they must have dropped
that suff on the drive, not me!" and when the authorities come to you,
what are you going to say? You didn't report it? That's a crime in
many places. You didn't do it? Try to prove it!

Can't say I really hate much about the world but child abuse
and those who do the abuse would be 1 of the few things I hate.

I talked to a friend of mine who does computer service, about this. He says
that virtually every machine he sees has 'dubious' material on it, but he
disputes that the argument that "the stuff was put on there by the guy that
repaired it" would ever wash, as he says that there are download dates and
so on, deeply embedded in the files, that any forensic computer expert
working for the police, could easily dig out. and use to prove exactly when
the material was placed on the machine. However, he says that in all the
years that he's been doing it, he has never seen a machine come in for
repair, with CP on it.

Arfa

 

[PeterD]

On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:20:48 -0700, D Yuniskis
<not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:

On 1/7/2011 2:44 PM, PeterD wrote:
...

Assuming child porn, he may not have an option, but be required to
hand it over or face possible legal concequences. Consider this, a
week later, the guy is busted for something else, and the porn is
discovered... What are the odds that he will say "Wasn't on my
computer before I took it to ABC for service, they must have dropped
that suff on the drive, not me!" and when the authorities come to you,
what are you going to say? You didn't report it? That's a crime in
many places. You didn't do it? Try to prove it!

IANAL. But, ...

Technically, the burden of proof that you *did* it lies with
the authorities (though that doesn't mean to say you're not
going to be in for a lot of headache, etc.).

Current law enforcement in the USA no longer works that way. You are
required to prove your are innocent or else you are considered guilty.

E.g., you can
*kill* an intruder in your house, here -- but, be prepared
to spend a year in the court system defending your actions
(and who knows how much exposure to civil suits you might have!)

[note that you are still, potentially, in this predicament
even if you didn't *know* there was something "illegal" on
the machine]

Proving you were unaware of it can be tricky.

Proving you didn't put the porn on the customer's computer would be
nearly impossible. The assumption will be that you are guilty in most
locations.

Generally speaking convictions are so easy (because of the emotional
aspect mostly) that proof needed is minimal. It is NOT worth the risk.

Most systems
track accesses to files -- in several different ways. Some
filesystems track "last access time". Many applications
maintain MRU lists. And, presentation layers might also.

I.e., if you used *his* machine to view *his* files, the
machine can attest to the fact that "someone looked at this"
at some particular time (he can then claim you had physical
possession of the device at the time in question).

Of course, you can cook all of this data in the machine
and make it *claim* anything you want (i.e., last accessed
20 years ago -- before the laptop was even manufactured! :< ).
Though you then leave yourself open to suspicion for simply
*knowing* how to do these things!

However, if you have *told* anyone about this, then you (and
they!) are complicit.

I stand by my original comment: *looking* is your first mistake!
When you're in business, you are always at increased risk for
"problems" because you typically deal with a variety of people
about which you know very little (this is why I only service
computers of friends/neighbors/relatives).

Looking was a major blunder. Violated ethics and privacy laws. That we
can easily agree on!

Can't say I really hate much about the world but child abuse
and those who do the abuse would be 1 of the few things I hate.

 

[PeterD]

On Sat, 8 Jan 2011 12:45:45 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
<arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"PeterD" <peter2@hipson.net> wrote in message
news:a52fi6htrc69tmdk5mcdhjpnqijs1gj07q@4ax.com...
On Thu, 6 Jan 2011 18:59:37 +0000 (UTC), Meat Plow <mhywatt@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:58:21 -0600, Jeffrey Angus wrote:

Customer brings in a lap top. "Won't boot"

So you do the usual amount of diagnostics and knock a little sense back
into the machine.

Being nosy of course, you check out the pictures folder to see what
their kinks are.

Oh, my definitely a bozo no no there.....

So what do you do?
(Some answers giving below are tongue in cheek for the humor impaired.)

Act like nothing happened?

Congratulate them on their tastes?

Wipe the drive with something like bcwipe and give it back to them?

Spin up the drive separately and bang it against the desk repeatedly
until you knock a head loose?

Make copies for yourself?

Hand it over to the local police?

Give it back to the customer and turn them in after a few weeks?

Charge the customer extra and demand payment to keep quiet?

The two things that bother me the most are the police have a terrible
track record on anonymous and the lawyers like to claim that YOU put it
there.

So, what to do?

Jeff

I'll assume you found some child porn. If it were me I would hand it over
to the cops.

Assuming child porn, he may not have an option, but be required to
hand it over or face possible legal concequences. Consider this, a
week later, the guy is busted for something else, and the porn is
discovered... What are the odds that he will say "Wasn't on my
computer before I took it to ABC for service, they must have dropped
that suff on the drive, not me!" and when the authorities come to you,
what are you going to say? You didn't report it? That's a crime in
many places. You didn't do it? Try to prove it!

Can't say I really hate much about the world but child abuse
and those who do the abuse would be 1 of the few things I hate.

I talked to a friend of mine who does computer service, about this. He says
that virtually every machine he sees has 'dubious' material on it, but he
disputes that the argument that "the stuff was put on there by the guy that
repaired it" would ever wash, as he says that there are download dates and
so on, deeply embedded in the files, that any forensic computer expert
working for the police, could easily dig out. and use to prove exactly when
the material was placed on the machine. However, he says that in all the
years that he's been doing it, he has never seen a machine come in for
repair, with CP on it.

Arfa

One major issue here is that we still have many investigators who are
so computer illertate that they can't find this type of information.
Things are getting better however and they will eventually be able to
understand computers, file information, etc.

But it still presents a major risk to the service people, and (as
mentioned) looking was a major fuck-up on the technican's part.

 

[JeffM]

Arfa Daily wrote:

says that there are download dates and so on,

I can't imagine what the "and so on" could possibly be.

Sounds like nonsense to me.

deeply embedded in the files,

"Touch" utilities have been around since the dawn of computing

and can alter the file dates at will.

The repair person having possession of the computer
queers the chain of custody.
If I was on a jury hearing this, I'd consider the whole case suspect.

he says that in all the years that he's been doing it,
he has never seen a machine come in for repair, with CP on it.

Yet another unethical snooper.

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

JeffM wrote:

"Touch" utilities have been around since the dawn of computing
and can alter the file dates at will.

Anyone who can use a search engine can find a bootable disk image/USB stick
image of disk utilites that let you read all sorts of disks, in all sorts
of condition. They allow you to look at files without setting access flags
and dates, etc.

Someone mentioned using Acronis True Image to image a disk, that leaves
no records and then if you were to make the image onto a permanent medium,
such as a DVD, you can then make a copy of the file off of the image and no
record is made on the image of the access.

The repair person having possession of the computer
queers the chain of custody.
If I was on a jury hearing this, I'd consider the whole case suspect.

What chain of custody? This is not an episode of CSI, my giving you a computer
to fix, and having a recipt for the the computer or a repair is not a chain
of custody. It's evidence that you had it and I did not. Evidence is not
proof and it's certainly not any evidence that once I gave it to you, you kept
control of it.

Yet another unethical snooper.

That I agree.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.

 

[Baron]

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:58:21 -0600, Jeffrey Angus
jangus@suddenlink.net> wrote:

I remember several years ago, something similar happened to Pete
Townshend of "The Who". He brought his computer into a shop for
service and the tech squealed on him because there was some child
abuse photos on there.

FWIW. That was the store manager trying to take advantage of free
publicity when it was realised who the owner was !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[PeterD]

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 08:41:08 -0700, The Peeler
<peelingthe@invalid.admin> wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:58:21 -0600, Jeffrey Angus
jangus@suddenlink.net> wrote:

Customer brings in a lap top. "Won't boot"
...

So, what to do?

Jeff

The customer may have bought the laptop used on eBay or elsewhere and
may be totally unaware of its contents.

That has nothting to do with the problem and what to do.

 

[The Peeler]

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:58:21 -0600, Jeffrey Angus
<jangus@suddenlink.net> wrote:

Customer brings in a lap top. "Won't boot"

So you do the usual amount of diagnostics
and knock a little sense back into the machine.

Being nosy of course, you check out the
pictures folder to see what their kinks are.

Oh, my definitely a bozo no no there.....

So what do you do?
(Some answers giving below are tongue in cheek
for the humor impaired.)

Act like nothing happened?

Congratulate them on their tastes?

Wipe the drive with something like bcwipe and
give it back to them?

Spin up the drive separately and bang it against
the desk repeatedly until you knock a head loose?

Make copies for yourself?

Hand it over to the local police?

Give it back to the customer and turn them in
after a few weeks?

Charge the customer extra and demand payment to
keep quiet?

The two things that bother me the most are the
police have a terrible track record on anonymous
and the lawyers like to claim that YOU put it
there.

So, what to do?

Jeff

The customer may have bought the laptop used on eBay or elsewhere and
may be totally unaware of its contents.

 

[The Peeler]

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 09:50:24 -0500, PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 08:41:08 -0700, The Peeler
peelingthe@invalid.admin> wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:58:21 -0600, Jeffrey Angus
jangus@suddenlink.net> wrote:

Customer brings in a lap top. "Won't boot"
...

So, what to do?

Jeff

The customer may have bought the laptop used on eBay or elsewhere and
may be totally unaware of its contents.

That has nothting to do with the problem and what to do.

It certainly does. He may have great difficulty proving his
innocence.

 

[PeterD]

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 13:36:10 -0700, The Peeler
<peelingthe@invalid,admin> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 09:50:24 -0500, PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 08:41:08 -0700, The Peeler
peelingthe@invalid.admin> wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:58:21 -0600, Jeffrey Angus
jangus@suddenlink.net> wrote:

Customer brings in a lap top. "Won't boot"
...

So, what to do?

Jeff

The customer may have bought the laptop used on eBay or elsewhere and
may be totally unaware of its contents.

That has nothting to do with the problem and what to do.

It certainly does. He may have great difficulty proving his
innocence.

The original post wasn't based on the 'owner' proving innocence or
not, only the ethical issues, and to a certain extent the legal issues
WRT the repair shop. We can save that issue for a later thread perhaps
(Say titled "My Friend Bought a Notebook on eBay and it Has Porn On
It")

 

[JW]

On Sat, 08 Jan 2011 09:13:44 -0500 PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote in
Message id: <r2sgi6ho9crra7ujsjoqvssu5iqh052bj3@4ax.com>:

Current law enforcement in the USA no longer works that way. You are
required to prove your are innocent or else you are considered guilty.
[...]
The assumption will be that you are guilty in most
locations.

Troll status confirmed.

 

[PeterD]

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 05:52:57 -0500, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

On Sat, 08 Jan 2011 09:13:44 -0500 PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote in
Message id: <r2sgi6ho9crra7ujsjoqvssu5iqh052bj3@4ax.com>:


Current law enforcement in the USA no longer works that way. You are
required to prove your are innocent or else you are considered guilty.
[...]
The assumption will be that you are guilty in most
locations.

Troll status confirmed.

You're admitting you are a troll? Or that the entire thread was a
troll (which is likely)? Claiming I'm a troll? <g> Or is it that if
someone posts something you don't agree with a troller?

 

[JW]

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 08:34:19 -0500 PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote in
Message id: <4l2mi6d9lg0uvqertcstl5eo6hkk552sf0@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 05:52:57 -0500, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

On Sat, 08 Jan 2011 09:13:44 -0500 PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote in
Message id: <r2sgi6ho9crra7ujsjoqvssu5iqh052bj3@4ax.com>:


Current law enforcement in the USA no longer works that way. You are
required to prove your are innocent or else you are considered guilty.
[...]
The assumption will be that you are guilty in most
locations.

Troll status confirmed.

You're admitting you are a troll?

No.

Or that the entire thread was a
troll (which is likely)?

No.

Claiming I'm a troll? <g

Yes.

Or is it that if
someone posts something you don't agree with a troller?

No.

 

[The Peeler]

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 19:53:56 -0500, PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 13:36:10 -0700, The Peeler
peelingthe@invalid,admin> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 09:50:24 -0500, PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 08:41:08 -0700, The Peeler
peelingthe@invalid.admin> wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:58:21 -0600, Jeffrey Angus
jangus@suddenlink.net> wrote:

Customer brings in a lap top. "Won't boot"
...

So, what to do?

Jeff

The customer may have bought the laptop used on eBay or elsewhere and
may be totally unaware of its contents.

That has nothting to do with the problem and what to do.

It certainly does. He may have great difficulty proving his
innocence.

The original post wasn't based on the 'owner' proving innocence or
not, only the ethical issues, and to a certain extent the legal issues
WRT the repair shop.

The owner is likely to have a shitload of legal issues which will make
the legal issues of the repair shop seem trivial in comparison.

We can save that issue for a later thread perhaps
(Say titled "My Friend Bought a Notebook on eBay and it Has Porn On
It")

Same problem if someone else sees it.

 

[PeterD]

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:42:23 -0500, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

...

You're admitting you are a troll?

No.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.

Or that the entire thread was a
troll (which is likely)?

No.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.

Claiming I'm a troll? <g

Yes.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.

Or is it that if
someone posts something you don't agree with a troller?

No.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.

Wow, totally wrong... Why am I not surprised?

 

[JW]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 08:39:46 -0500 PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote in
Message id: <7bnoi69f6jmmtpd09ltrk6nrsn07q3m6cg@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:42:23 -0500, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

...

You're admitting you are a troll?

No.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.


Or that the entire thread was a
troll (which is likely)?

No.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.


Claiming I'm a troll? <g

Yes.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.


Or is it that if
someone posts something you don't agree with a troller?

No.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.

Wow, totally wrong... Why am I not surprised?

Troll-O-Meter

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

*----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----*
.^.
/ | \
|

Not very subtle. Try harder next time.

 

[TMI]

Starting programs and looking at content is unavoidable in the course
of computer repair, unless you are going to guess at the effectiveness
of your repair and let the customer test it out. Generally, this
pisses customers off as a good percentage of time the computer isn't
fixed or will fail again for the same reason (virus embedded files
being accessed). From a basic customer service point of view, they
expect you to shake the unit out.

Conversely, the moment you uncover something embarrassing,
controversial or worse yet actionable, privacy becomes the main
objective.

While you should consult with a lawyer for details, I think a computer
repair shop should have a boilerplate statement on it's estimate and
repair orders indicating that files will be accessed in the process of
repair and while privacy is respected, the shop is not in league with
criminals, particularly, those who deal in Child Porn and reserves the
right to delete and/or report and such information found. A wall sign
to this effect might be a good idea as well.

Most customers are willing to do anything to get their data back so
this will have little effect on business, at least the business you
want.

This being said, for the sake of your protection, take note that it is
often difficult to distinguish between files downloaded by a virus
that are unknown to the user and those that get the user's jolly's off
without an investigation that is beyond the scope of your repair. Even
Unofficial Sesame Street sites have embedded porn. Imagine calling
down the wrath of God on someone whose child clicked the wrong Big
Bird!!! We all want to be the hero that saves a child. What happens
when you destroy a family by mistake instead????

Pete Townsend has done more over his career to shine a spotlight on
child abuse than any other pop star. He started long before looking at
the Willowbrook's of the world was a popular expose' topic. When
people just looked away because it was too painful to imagine. Yet, he
was paraded before the media when someone stuck their nose in out of
context. Care to guess how many children were hurt along with Mr.
Townsend's creditability?

At my level, discretion is expected and failure generally means a
lawsuit or worse. I avoid accessing unneeded content as you should. I
explain to customers that I will be removing content that is suspect
to the stable operation of their computers and try to preserve it on a
CD or DVD. I hand this over to the customer and explain the risk of
accessing such sites. Often, the computer owner is not the source of
the problem. I feel, since they are your customer, that you owe them a
chance to address the issue before sounding the Child Pornographer
alarm.

Just because we can....does not mean we should.


On Jan 10, 1:32 pm, The Peeler <peeling...@invalid.admin> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 19:53:56 -0500, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:
On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 13:36:10 -0700, The Peeler
peelingthe@invalid,admin> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 09:50:24 -0500, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 08:41:08 -0700, The Peeler
peeling...@invalid.admin> wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:58:21 -0600, Jeffrey Angus
jan...@suddenlink.net> wrote:

Customer brings in a lap top. "Won't boot"
...

So, what to do?

Jeff

The customer may have bought the laptop used on eBay or elsewhere and
may be totally unaware of its contents.

That has nothting to do with the problem and what to do.

It certainly does.  He may have great difficulty proving his
innocence.

The original post wasn't based on the 'owner' proving innocence or
not, only the ethical issues, and to a certain extent the legal issues
WRT the repair shop.

The owner is likely to have a shitload of legal issues which will make
the legal issues of the repair shop seem trivial in comparison.

We can save that issue for a later thread perhaps
(Say titled "My Friend Bought a Notebook on eBay and it Has Porn On
It")

Same problem if someone else sees it.

 

[PeterD]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 08:57:14 -0500, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 08:39:46 -0500 PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote in
Message id: <7bnoi69f6jmmtpd09ltrk6nrsn07q3m6cg@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:42:23 -0500, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

...

You're admitting you are a troll?

No.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.


Or that the entire thread was a
troll (which is likely)?

No.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.


Claiming I'm a troll? <g

Yes.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.


Or is it that if
someone posts something you don't agree with a troller?

No.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.

Wow, totally wrong... Why am I not surprised?


Troll-O-Meter

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

*----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----*
.^.
/ | \
|

Not very subtle. Try harder next time.

I got one too, and put your posts on it, and got: