EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being te

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

 

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
caught or ratted out.

According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?

 

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I assume the car's computer
knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program.

Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California
doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogcheck/march09/transitioning_to_obd_only_im.pdf

Most use tailpipe testing.

Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure
on a dynomometer.

Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can
easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's
being tested for emissions.

Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car
knows it is being tested.

 

[Ashton Crusher]

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
<ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote:

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

My guess is that anytime something was connected to the diagnostic
connector the car turned on all the emissions systems. I know that
here in AZ they have been doing the emissions test for cars for quite
a few years now by plugging into the diagnostic connector and reading
the computer looking for pending codes that haven't turned on the CEL.
If you have more then a couple pending codes you fail. My PT is a
2009 model and it's always been tested that way so the time frame is
certainly doable.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

I found that interesting for two things. I assume the car's computer
knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program.

I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
caught or ratted out.

 

[mike]

On 9/18/2015 9:42 PM, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
caught or ratted out.

According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?

Will you have any choice?
If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
emissions, they will FAIL.
If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.

You want VW to FIX the problem consistently with the
original driveablilty and economy.
Since that's likely not possible, what do you do now?
Force them to replace the whole car?

Fix the emissions by reprogramming the computer
(Let the air quality test people enforce owner compliance.
Maybe require a recall complete document. Maybe require
VW to supply a zillion adapters to make the tests right.)
AND
refund the owner the current (pre-disclosure)
bluebook value of the vehicle...let that be the fine and paid to
the people actually financially harmed? That sounds like a simple
solution that puts the cash where it's needed and fixes the emissions
and hits VW where it hurts. No fuss, no muss, no new laws, just
enforce the existing ones.
It's a win-win...except for VW.

OR we could just
Fine them billions and fritter it away wherever such fines
are frittered?

Do nothing and get a better gas mask?

 

"Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. "

THAT IS NOT HOW IT WORKS.

When there is not enough exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) there are more oxides or nitrogen produced because of the higher peak combustion temperature. The EGR valve, by lettting in exhaust which is oxygen starved atmosphere, lowers the burning tmperature of the mixture, and thus "burns" less nirogen into N2O.

You had it backwards.

 

I mean you mean that they only turn ON the EGR for the test.

I am not saying you are wrong in your mind (well) I am asking, did you mistype that ?

But really the EGR reduces N2O, so logically ...

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:42:00 +0000, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
caught or ratted out.

According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?

Possibly the insurance companies might deny liability for any claims if
the car has not been maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's
recommendations? They're well known for trying any get-outs they can and
the courts generally find in favour of them due to the doctrine of
'utmost good faith' which applies to insurance contracts.

 

[Steve W.]

Ewald Böhm wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I assume the car's computer
knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program.

Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California
doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogcheck/march09/transitioning_to_obd_only_im.pdf

Most use tailpipe testing.

Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure
on a dynomometer.

Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can
easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's
being tested for emissions.

Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car
knows it is being tested.

How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
of the states do not use a dyno any longer.

Alaska, Arizona, California (in areas that require "enhanced" emissions
testing), Colorado, Connecticut, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky,
Maine, Massachusetts, Missouri (St. Louis), Nevada, New Hampshire, North
Carolina, Oregon, Texas (Houston and Dallas/Ft. Worth), Utah (Salt Lake
City), Vermont, Washington and Wisconsin, New Jersey, New York (in areas
that require emissions testing), Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh and
Philadelphia) and Virginia ALL use some type of OBD II testing, some use
both OBD II and tailpipe.

As to how it knows it's being tested. Simple, as soon as the OBD test
link gets plugged into the port it starts asking the ECM which protocol
it communicates with. Emissions testing uses a specific test protocol,
that doesn't query ALL of the systems on the vehicle. Easy enough to
tell the ECM - When this protocol is queried activate this programming.

No different than the way software is set up in some cars to change the
driving parameters based on different "modes" or valet keys or key fob type.


--
Steve W.

 

[Steve W.]

Ewald Böhm wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I assume the car's computer
knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program.

Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California
doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogcheck/march09/transitioning_to_obd_only_im.pdf

Most use tailpipe testing.

Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure
on a dynomometer.

Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can
easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's
being tested for emissions.

Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car
knows it is being tested.

http://obdclearinghouse.com/index.php

--
Steve W.

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
caught or ratted out.

According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?

I'm likely mistaken, but my gut sense is that lower emissions
means lower performance, and lower mileage. My guess is that
the "fix" will be a downgrade of some kind.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[sms]

On 9/18/2015 5:19 PM, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

Can't speak for all states, but in California one of the first steps in
an emissions test is for the codes to be read via the OBD-II port. They
won't even proceed to the tailpipe test if there are incomplete
self-tests on the vehicle (I ran into this once when I brought a vehicle
in just after I changed the car battery).

It would be rather simple for the vehicle's computer to note that the
OBD-II port was active and to change the emissions system settings for
the next 30 minutes to an hour.

I suspect that most states with smog tests read the codes via the OBD-II
port prior to proceeding with tailpipe testing.

My brother-in-law had a Smog Pros franchise for many years and just sold
it last month. In some cases he would do pre-tests prior to hooking to
the state's computer so a vehicle could be repaired before being
labeled a gross polluter. A VW TDI would never pass a pre-test via the
EGA (exhaust gas analyzer unless the codes had been read first. But I
doubt he ever had done a pre-test on a VW TDI.

He told me that once he had a vehicle that was only slightly out of
compliance and he offered to repair it for $40. The owner declined,
saying he would fix it himself. Without an EGA that really isn't a good
idea, but the owner left then came back for his free retest under the
"Pass or Retest Free." So he did the retest and now the vehicle was so
far out of compliance that it was a gross polluter. The owner then
wanted to pay $40 for the repair and have it tested again but it was too
late. He could get the repairs done but the vehicle's status had been
sent to the state and now the owner had to take the car to a different
"Test-Only" smog check station and pay again. He also would have to now
get a smog check every year instead of every two years (that requirement
is no longer in effect).

 

[Dean Hoffman]

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike <ham789@netzero.net> wrote:

On 9/18/2015 9:42 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
caught or ratted out.

According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?

Will you have any choice?
If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
emissions, they will FAIL.
If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.

Some cut.

Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing
for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think
the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed.
I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in
states with no testing.

--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

 

[THE COLONEL, Ph.D]

"EwaldBĂśhm" wrote in message news:mti9lu$jb$1@news.mixmin.net...

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

My question is HOW did they name you ewald?
LOL

 

[.]

On 9/19/2015 8:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike <ham789@netzero.net> wrote:

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?

Will you have any choice?
If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
emissions, they will FAIL.
If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.

Some cut.

Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing
for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think
the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed.
I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in
states with no testing.

Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam
and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing
less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate
cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles
lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best
addressed at time of manufacture.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?

You can feel good that the spotted owl is not choking on your fumes.
The only way to force you to get the fix is if the car will no longer
pass unless it was done. I don't know if the eqipment doing th testing
will be able to tell.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 9/19/2015 9:17 AM, Cursitor Doom wrote:

Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?

Possibly the insurance companies might deny liability for any claims if
the car has not been maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's
recommendations? They're well known for trying any get-outs they can and
the courts generally find in favour of them due to the doctrine of
'utmost good faith' which applies to insurance contracts.

Do you know of any claims denied because the owner did not get an oil
change? Dirty air filter?

 

[Steve W.]

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald Böhm wrote:

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?


You can feel good that the spotted owl is not choking on your fumes.
The only way to force you to get the fix is if the car will no longer
pass unless it was done. I don't know if the eqipment doing th testing
will be able to tell.

Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.

That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
they should pay a fine as well".

--
Steve W.

 

[.]

On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:

Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.

That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners?