elliptical engineering...

[RichD]

On February 24, Fred Bloggs wrote:

I use the elliptical machine regularly, it\'s
the best full body workout, along with the rower.
I wonder, how do they implement the variable
resistance? hmmmm... a viscous damper? Place
a rubber diaphragm around the pushrods, fill
it with liquid, squeeze the bag with a stepping
motor, adjusting the viscosity.

Usually it is a simple eccentric cam, or equivalent. The idea is
you have less mechanical advantage through the range of
motion where you have high leverage, and more mechanical advantage
through the range of motion where you have less leverage.

The physics there doesn\'t add up. A lever provides \'mechanical
advantage\', but no change in energy/work per cycle.

Whereas, in the elliptical, the user actually burns greater power.
Which is the idea - inefficiency is useful -

--
Rich

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 1:46:33 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:

On 2/24/23 5:45 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/24/2023 6:31 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
Or at least offset their business usage. Then they could also let
patrons know \"Hey, you generated 517Wh during this visit!\"

500Wh would be alot
Not really. I pump out a lot more than that on my all-day rides,
especially when riding alone or with just one fast rider. Cycling pros
can do that in less than 2h.

Walking on a treadmill and on an elliptical use different
muscle groups. Likewise for a cycle (\"spinner\").

I walk at more than 4MPH and can never get my heart rate
into the aerobic zone even after an hour at that pace.

Walking never does unless it\'s up a Himalayan mountain. You\'ve got to go
into some sort of run where you break a sweat even in winter weather.
Biking is easier on the joints though.

There was the apocryphal Roman Army training march of 20 miles in 5 hours carrying 20 kg load. The Roman mile is about 0.94 our statute mile, so that would be 20 x 0.94/ 5h= 3.7- 3.8 MPH. I guess it could be simulated on the treadmill with 45 lb weight vest. The monotony of it would be the hardest part.

Those are just crazy workouts. The American Heart Association has been saying for decades you only 15 minutes daily at 70% perceived exertion, which is on the verge of perspiring, to maintain heart health, and I think they\'re right.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

lørdag den 25. februar 2023 kl. 21.30.57 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:

On 2/24/23 6:46 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 25. februar 2023 kl. 02.35.57 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 8:26:53 PM UTC-5, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 25. februar 2023 kl. 02.06.41 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:

For cyclists they have trainers you set your rear axle in and adjust resistance with your gearing. That\'s probably the best cycling training you can get because you\'re using the real thing, your bike.

the fancier one have computer controlled magnetic resistance, so you can pick, say, a stage from
the tour de France. The computer will adjust the resistance to match where you are on the stage
and you can watch the road on a TV
Forget that European road racing. Once I heard they go into those sharp mountain curves at high speed and skidding/ sliding to the outer edge of the radius. Some of them misjudge and go over a very steep precipice- and get very very injured in the process- because they\'re going very very fast


you obviously never watched any. It is mostly flat roads or uphill, they do occasionally have fast downhill sections, I think the record is ~100km/h, but they are professionals and rarely crash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmJ_sskSJ5M
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/wP3gAGm5Ev4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17qtRLCIHZo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u0hVp59ggk

Wouter Weylandt unfortunately died in such an incident. Downhill at
around 50mph, in Italy.

I remember when Fabio Casartelli died in the 1995 Tour, and yet it wasn\'t until the
early 2000\'s that helmet were made mandatory

 

[Mark]

On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 1:47:38 PM UTC-8, RichD wrote:

I use the elliptical machine regularly, it\'s
the best full body workout, along with the rower.

I wonder, how do they implement the variable
resistance? hmmmm... a viscous damper? Place
a rubber diaphragm around the pushrods, fill
it with liquid, squeeze the bag with a stepping
motor, adjusting the viscosity.

Or maybe magnetic? Probably too expensive, though
more interesting and elegant, to a EE.

The rowing machine is simply a mechanical linkage,
just friction. Boring, but probably cost/performance optimal.

--
Rich
I have a Nordic Track elliptical. It uses a pair of magnets near a large ferrous wheel. Eddy currents do the rest.

-Mark

 

[RichD]

On February 25, Fred Bloggs wrote:

That\'s true about the trainer. The major component missing is wind resistance.
IIRC you only have to be doing about 15 MPH to require about 2/3 of your work
for overcoming wind resistance.

I have a little quiz, of science, math, economics, which I spring
on my friends and lawyer. The results are dismal, sad to say.

One: why is a bicyclist faster than a runner, whether sprint
or distance? Nobody yet has answered correctly - they
only spew word salads containing \'efficiency\' in multiple forms -

--
Rich

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 3:50:54 PM UTC-5, RichD wrote:

On February 24, Fred Bloggs wrote:
I use the elliptical machine regularly, it\'s
the best full body workout, along with the rower.
I wonder, how do they implement the variable
resistance? hmmmm... a viscous damper? Place
a rubber diaphragm around the pushrods, fill
it with liquid, squeeze the bag with a stepping
motor, adjusting the viscosity.

Usually it is a simple eccentric cam, or equivalent. The idea is
you have less mechanical advantage through the range of
motion where you have high leverage, and more mechanical advantage
through the range of motion where you have less leverage.
The physics there doesn\'t add up. A lever provides \'mechanical
advantage\', but no change in energy/work per cycle.

Whereas, in the elliptical, the user actually burns greater power.
Which is the idea - inefficiency is useful -

There\'s something up with that argument. The idea of the elliptical is to make it harder for that part of the stroke easiest for you, and easier for the part of stroke that\'s the hardest. For the stair climb motion, that should make it easier to push the pedal down on your step up side, and harder on your kickout phase pushing the pedal away.

--
Rich

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

lørdag den 25. februar 2023 kl. 21.45.10 UTC+1 skrev RichD:

On February 24, Don Y wrote:
I use the elliptical machine regularly, it\'s
the best full body workout,
I wonder, how do they implement the variable
resistance? hmmmm... a viscous damper? Place
a rubber diaphragm around the pushrods, fill
it with liquid, squeeze the bag with a stepping
motor, adjusting the viscosity.
Or maybe magnetic? Probably too expensive, though
more interesting and elegant, to a EE.

Motor (acting as generator) with a variable \"load\"?
A dissipative varistor load? What/how?

something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake#Dynamometer_eddy_current_absorbers

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

lørdag den 25. februar 2023 kl. 21.50.54 UTC+1 skrev RichD:

On February 24, Fred Bloggs wrote:
I use the elliptical machine regularly, it\'s
the best full body workout, along with the rower.
I wonder, how do they implement the variable
resistance? hmmmm... a viscous damper? Place
a rubber diaphragm around the pushrods, fill
it with liquid, squeeze the bag with a stepping
motor, adjusting the viscosity.

Usually it is a simple eccentric cam, or equivalent. The idea is
you have less mechanical advantage through the range of
motion where you have high leverage, and more mechanical advantage
through the range of motion where you have less leverage.
The physics there doesn\'t add up. A lever provides \'mechanical
advantage\', but no change in energy/work per cycle.

think of it as impedance matching, making the load maximum through the whole range of motion
instead of being too high in some parts of the range and too low in others

 

[Joerg]

On 2/25/23 12:59 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

lørdag den 25. februar 2023 kl. 21.30.57 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
On 2/24/23 6:46 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 25. februar 2023 kl. 02.35.57 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 8:26:53 PM UTC-5, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 25. februar 2023 kl. 02.06.41 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:

For cyclists they have trainers you set your rear axle in and adjust resistance with your gearing. That\'s probably the best cycling training you can get because you\'re using the real thing, your bike.

the fancier one have computer controlled magnetic resistance, so you can pick, say, a stage from
the tour de France. The computer will adjust the resistance to match where you are on the stage
and you can watch the road on a TV
Forget that European road racing. Once I heard they go into those sharp mountain curves at high speed and skidding/ sliding to the outer edge of the radius. Some of them misjudge and go over a very steep precipice- and get very very injured in the process- because they\'re going very very fast


you obviously never watched any. It is mostly flat roads or uphill, they do occasionally have fast downhill sections, I think the record is ~100km/h, but they are professionals and rarely crash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmJ_sskSJ5M
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/wP3gAGm5Ev4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17qtRLCIHZo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u0hVp59ggk

Wouter Weylandt unfortunately died in such an incident. Downhill at
around 50mph, in Italy.

I remember when Fabio Casartelli died in the 1995 Tour, and yet it wasn\'t until the
early 2000\'s that helmet were made mandatory

Yeah, and especially in Europe there are a lot of hardcore anti-helmet
cyclists who think helmets do not save lives. They think they know
better than all the trauma surgeons.

I never ride without a helmet, not even the two miles to the gym.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

lørdag den 25. februar 2023 kl. 22.56.35 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:

On 2/25/23 12:59 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 25. februar 2023 kl. 21.30.57 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
On 2/24/23 6:46 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 25. februar 2023 kl. 02.35.57 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 8:26:53 PM UTC-5, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 25. februar 2023 kl. 02.06.41 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:

For cyclists they have trainers you set your rear axle in and adjust resistance with your gearing. That\'s probably the best cycling training you can get because you\'re using the real thing, your bike.

the fancier one have computer controlled magnetic resistance, so you can pick, say, a stage from
the tour de France. The computer will adjust the resistance to match where you are on the stage
and you can watch the road on a TV
Forget that European road racing. Once I heard they go into those sharp mountain curves at high speed and skidding/ sliding to the outer edge of the radius. Some of them misjudge and go over a very steep precipice- and get very very injured in the process- because they\'re going very very fast


you obviously never watched any. It is mostly flat roads or uphill, they do occasionally have fast downhill sections, I think the record is ~100km/h, but they are professionals and rarely crash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmJ_sskSJ5M
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/wP3gAGm5Ev4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17qtRLCIHZo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u0hVp59ggk

Wouter Weylandt unfortunately died in such an incident. Downhill at
around 50mph, in Italy.

I remember when Fabio Casartelli died in the 1995 Tour, and yet it wasn\'t until the
early 2000\'s that helmet were made mandatory

Yeah, and especially in Europe there are a lot of hardcore anti-helmet
cyclists who think helmets do not save lives. They think they know
better than all the trauma surgeons.

I never ride without a helmet, not even the two miles to the gym.

I don\'t think I\'ve meet anyone that didn\'t think helmets save lives,
they might not wear one but I see a lot of people on bikes wear helmets.
Definitely all of those on series racebikes, it is part of the uniform

 

[RichD]

On February 25, Fred Bloggs wrote:

I use the elliptical machine regularly, it\'s
the best full body workout, along with the rower.
I wonder, how do they implement the variable
resistance?

Usually it is a simple eccentric cam, or equivalent. The idea is
you have less mechanical advantage through the range of
motion where you have high leverage, and more mechanical advantage
through the range of motion where you have less leverage.

The physics there doesn\'t add up. A lever provides \'mechanical
advantage\', but no change in energy/work per cycle.
Whereas, in the elliptical, the user actually burns greater power.
Which is the idea - inefficiency is useful -

The idea of the elliptical is to make it harder for that part of the stroke easiest
for you, and easier for the part of stroke that\'s the hardest. For the stair climb
motion, that should make it easier to push the pedal down on your step up side,
and harder on your kickout phase pushing the pedal away.

At higher resistance, the display shows higher Watt burn.
How does the mechanism modulate the cam shape?

--
Rich

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 8:33:26 PM UTC-5, RichD wrote:

On February 25, Fred Bloggs wrote:
I use the elliptical machine regularly, it\'s
the best full body workout, along with the rower.
I wonder, how do they implement the variable
resistance?

Usually it is a simple eccentric cam, or equivalent. The idea is
you have less mechanical advantage through the range of
motion where you have high leverage, and more mechanical advantage
through the range of motion where you have less leverage.

The physics there doesn\'t add up. A lever provides \'mechanical
advantage\', but no change in energy/work per cycle.
Whereas, in the elliptical, the user actually burns greater power.
Which is the idea - inefficiency is useful -
The idea of the elliptical is to make it harder for that part of the stroke easiest
for you, and easier for the part of stroke that\'s the hardest. For the stair climb
motion, that should make it easier to push the pedal down on your step up side,
and harder on your kickout phase pushing the pedal away.
At higher resistance, the display shows higher Watt burn.
How does the mechanism modulate the cam shape?

The post by \'Mark\' said it is ferrous wheel with a magnet pair. That can cause an asymmetry of torque resistance in its rotation, which is the same as an eccentric cam.

--
Rich

 

[boB]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:47:33 -0800 (PST), RichD
<r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

I use the elliptical machine regularly, it\'s
the best full body workout, along with the rower.

I wonder, how do they implement the variable
resistance? hmmmm... a viscous damper? Place
a rubber diaphragm around the pushrods, fill
it with liquid, squeeze the bag with a stepping
motor, adjusting the viscosity.

Or maybe magnetic? Probably too expensive, though
more interesting and elegant, to a EE.

The rowing machine is simply a mechanical linkage,
just friction. Boring, but probably cost/performance optimal.

Generator and a resistive load, PWM\'d for adjustment.

Pretty simple.

There have been some that have been grid tied and the power sent back
to the utility.

boB

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <e357287c-11ac-4b72-b117-5ded4a19ae60n@googlegroups.com>,
r_delaney2001@yahoo.com says...

I have a little quiz, of science, math, economics, which I spring
on my friends and lawyer. The results are dismal, sad to say.

One: why is a bicyclist faster than a runner, whether sprint
or distance? Nobody yet has answered correctly - they
only spew word salads containing \'efficiency\' in multiple forms -

It would seem to me that the bicycle has the distance the feet move
multiplied by the ratio of the driving sprocket to the diameter of the
rear wheel. Similar to the way you trade power for distance in a set of
gears where one is larger than the other.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

lørdag den 25. februar 2023 kl. 22.03.21 UTC+1 skrev RichD:

On February 25, Fred Bloggs wrote:
That\'s true about the trainer. The major component missing is wind resistance.
IIRC you only have to be doing about 15 MPH to require about 2/3 of your work
for overcoming wind resistance.
I have a little quiz, of science, math, economics, which I spring
on my friends and lawyer. The results are dismal, sad to say.

One: why is a bicyclist faster than a runner, whether sprint
or distance? Nobody yet has answered correctly - they
only spew word salads containing \'efficiency\' in multiple forms -

when running every time you land and have to lift you body again up again some energy is lost
because of the weight of you legs there is a limit to how fast you can swing them back and forth

on a bike all the energy goes into moving you forward and you can pick a gear that keeps
the optimum speed of your legs for the speed you are going, as long as you can produce enough power to do so

 

[ehsjr]

On 2/25/2023 4:03 PM, RichD wrote:

On February 25, Fred Bloggs wrote:
That\'s true about the trainer. The major component missing is wind resistance.
IIRC you only have to be doing about 15 MPH to require about 2/3 of your work
for overcoming wind resistance.

I have a little quiz, of science, math, economics, which I spring
on my friends and lawyer. The results are dismal, sad to say.

One: why is a bicyclist faster than a runner, whether sprint
or distance? Nobody yet has answered correctly - they
only spew word salads containing \'efficiency\' in multiple forms -

--
Rich

With a bike, all* of the leg motion is converted to
forward motion. With running there is up and down
motion as well as forward motion.

That\'s the essence of it. No need to get into force
vectors, mechanical losses, physiology, efficiency etc.

Ed

 

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[Joerg]

On 2/25/23 12:55 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 1:46:33 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2/24/23 5:45 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/24/2023 6:31 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
Or at least offset their business usage. Then they could also let
patrons know \"Hey, you generated 517Wh during this visit!\"

500Wh would be alot
Not really. I pump out a lot more than that on my all-day rides,
especially when riding alone or with just one fast rider. Cycling pros
can do that in less than 2h.

Walking on a treadmill and on an elliptical use different
muscle groups. Likewise for a cycle (\"spinner\").

I walk at more than 4MPH and can never get my heart rate
into the aerobic zone even after an hour at that pace.

Walking never does unless it\'s up a Himalayan mountain. You\'ve got to go
into some sort of run where you break a sweat even in winter weather.
Biking is easier on the joints though.

There was the apocryphal Roman Army training march of 20 miles in 5 hours carrying 20 kg load. The Roman mile is about 0.94 our statute mile, so that would be 20 x 0.94/ 5h= 3.7- 3.8 MPH. I guess it could be simulated on the treadmill with 45 lb weight vest. The monotony of it would be the hardest part.

Those are just crazy workouts. The American Heart Association has been saying for decades you only 15 minutes daily at 70% perceived exertion, which is on the verge of perspiring, to maintain heart health, and I think they\'re right.

Maybe for a person with an otherwise sedentary lifestyle. 15min daily
does not buy you any endurance. So when you are tasked to run in hilly
terrain for a few hours to dodge a thunderstorm or for some emergency
you\'d be in trouble without having done much more substantial exercises.
Same if you had to chop a cord of firewood within a reasonable time.

The Army story reminds me of my Army time. In the German forces, we were
stationed next to a unit of the British Army during boot camp. One day
we did a march with light gear, huffing, puffing and complaining.
Suddenly we heard \"clomp, clomp, clomp\" behind us. British soldiers ran
(!) past us, throwing us a \"Good day, chaps!\". They ran in full gear. In
the evening I asked one of them when they were back. \"Oh, shortly after
lunch, this wasn\'t a big one\". We had been back a bit later and they had
run the same route.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Don Y]

On 2/25/2023 12:15 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Probably that 500 WH is not too far off. Most adults ues/generate the
heat of a 75 to 100 watts while at rest and walking around the house.

It\'s not hard to consume a lot of *power* as you can expend it over
as long a period as possible. I do more \"work\" lugging 75 pound
buckets of paint up the ladder and onto the roof than in a 30-60 minute
daily \"walk\".

But, there is very little joy in lugging paint up a ladder.
Granted, there\'s accomplishment in having finished the task...

Likewise riding a bicycle. It\'s also too easy to \"coast\".

Walking gives you opportunities to talk with (and meet new)
neighbors, passersby, etc. and if you stop moving your legs
the walk comes to an end! (I find walking DOWNhill to be
more of an effort than up as it is relatively easy to increase
your level of exertion on the climb -- to maintain a constant
rate of progress -- than on the descent)

[If you just want exercise, \"spin\" while doing your \"desk work\"]

I did see a comical fiction movie where the world ran out of electricity
and it was discovered that having sex would make electricity.
Just imagine an airplane full of people having sex to get it to fly.

And, the poor folks in *coach*... likely EXHAUSTED by *their* efforts!

 

[Don Y]

On 2/25/2023 12:21 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

sure, about half a tour de France stage
https://www.velonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/CAS-stage-8-file.jpeg

but how many people spend several hours at those power levels at the gym?

People with little else in their lives? <shrug>

[I have a hard time with \"exercise for the sake of exercise\"]

I find walking to be an effective use of time -- especially if for
a purpose. E.g., the 4.4 mile walk to the library lets me return
(or pickup) new titles and only \"costs\" me ~40 minutes (the walking
time is about 65 but I would have spent ~25 minutes *driving*
(and parking, waiting at lights, etc.) to accomplish that same
trip \"the lazy way\"

[And, I\'d not be intimidated to trek 4 miles home if my vehicle broke
down; the couch potatoes would likely \"call an Uber\"]