Electrolytic capacitor question

[Ian Field]

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote in message
news:slrnksuer9.nvp.gsm@cable.mendelson.com...

Kripton wrote:

105 deg is the maximum operating temperature before the capacitor
starts to dry
and loose capacity.

It is unlikely that a cap in a TV set will reach 105C and fail.

What temperature do hot melt glue sticks melt at?

Before I got an ESR meter I used to see how hot the electrolytics got while
it was running, the aluminium can isn't isolated so touching them can be
dangerous - the first line check was to see which ones could melt the end of
a glue stick.

 

[Ian Field]

<captainvideo462009@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:486e1db4-579a-4bcc-a922-33e1bb9220a2@googlegroups.com...

I recently replaced a couple of electrolytics in a flat screen TV for a
customer. The caps were in the power supply and were of course rated for
105 degrees C. So this brought to mind a question. Could this possibly be
an operating temperature? Or is it a storage temperature? Or perhaps it's
an internal temperature? It would seem like it would have to be a very
high frequency component to ever cause an electrolytic to ever approach
anything like this. Could one of these parts rated as such actually get
this hot and remain operational? Would this actually be within prudent
design parameters for the device? In theory if the caps are not actually
operating at even 85 degrees C then why wouldn't you be able to use a
lower rated temperature cap for that application?

It would seem to me that if a piece of equipment were designed to run a
capacitor that hot or even at 85 degrees C for whatever reason then in my
mind that would certainly constitute a very poor design. I have been
repairing TV's for many years and the only capacitors I've ever seen get
too hot to touch were bad ones. Could someone please explain this rating
to me? Thanks, Lenny

I'd take it to be the maximum recomended operating temperature - exceeding
that significantly reduces its life.

Apart from radiated heat from other components (like power resistors) the
main cause of heating is power dissipated in the apparent internal series
resistance; ESR, ripple current - especially high frequency in a SMPSU
constantly alternates between charging and discharging the "ideal"
capasitor, the current going in and out develops a voltage across the ESR -
AxV=W.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 22:20:44 +0100, "Ian Field"
<gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote in message
news:slrnksuer9.nvp.gsm@cable.mendelson.com...
Kripton wrote:

105 deg is the maximum operating temperature before the capacitor
starts to dry
and loose capacity.

It is unlikely that a cap in a TV set will reach 105C and fail.

What temperature do hot melt glue sticks melt at?

It depends on the composition of the glue stick. About 80C is
typical, although it can anywhere from 66C to 147C depending on
composition.
<http://www.applied-adhesives.com/products/hot-melt-adhesives.aspx>

Before I got an ESR meter I used to see how hot the electrolytics got while
it was running, the aluminium can isn't isolated so touching them can be
dangerous - the first line check was to see which ones could melt the end of
a glue stick.

Good test, but lousy accuracy unless you "calibrate" your glue stick.
I just use an IR thermometer, or if I want better accuracy, a
thermocouple or thermistor thermometer.

So, has anyone measured the temperature of the capacitors in a tube
type amplifier?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jeff Liebermann = demented lunatic"

So, has anyone measured the temperature of the capacitors in a tube
type amplifier?

** As if they are all the same ....

Go fuck you mother - you pathetic, raving, radio ham idiot.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 10:15:13 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann = demented lunatic"
So, has anyone measured the temperature of the capacitors in a tube
type amplifier?

** As if they are all the same ....

Of course they're not all the same. I want to see if any of them run
anywhere close to 85C or 105C, as claimed. In particular, the big
aluminum can type capacitors that are often misplaced very close to
the tubes. You may actually be correct but I doubt it since aluminum
makes a very good IR reflector. The caps under the chassis are
probably comparatively cool.

While I have a few minutes waiting for the contact cement repairs on
my tennis shoes to dry, I have a mini-rant. Why am I doing your
calculations for you? You proclaim that leakage current is important,
yet I'm expected to do the calculations? You proclaim the temperature
has an effect on ESR, yet I'm expected to calculate how big an effect.
You drag guitar amps, hi-v caps, and internal leakage, into a
discussion on the OP's LCD TV or monitor, which uses low voltage, low
leakage, low-ESR, and apparently low-life capacitors, while I'm
expected to demonstrate the distinction? If you have a point to make,
please do your own calcs.

Go fuck you mother - you pathetic, raving, radio ham idiot.

Are you aware that you're breaking Australian law?
<http://reason.com/blog/2010/06/17/australian-state-bans-swearing>
If there were a reward, I would probably turn you in to the
authorities.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jeff Liebermann = demented lunatic"

So, has anyone measured the temperature of the capacitors in a tube
type amplifier?

** As if they are all the same ....

Of course they're not all the same.

** Then you only look at those examples that are relevant.

I want to see if any of them run
anywhere close to 85C or 105C, as claimed.

** Then look at the one that was specifically mentioned.

Cos YOU claimed there were NONE and it was impossible.

" The problem is that nobody runs electrolytics at 85C. "

In particular, the big
aluminum can type capacitors that are often misplaced very close to
the tubes. You may actually be correct but I doubt it since aluminum
makes a very good IR reflector.

** The LCR caps in Marshall 100W heads and combos are sleeved in blue
plastic.

Very few electros are bare aluminium.

The caps under the chassis are probably comparatively cool.

** How the fuck would a pig ignorant, stinking radio ham like you know ??

Never seen a tube amp in his whole, stinking life.

You proclaim that leakage current is important,

** You claimed it did not EXIST - you fucking LIAR !!!!!

" A capacitor only draws current when the voltage across the
leads changes. The capacitor only dissipated power, and converts it
to heat, when the voltage changes. Pure DC across a capacitor does
nothing to produce heat."

You proclaim the temperature
has an effect on ESR, yet I'm expected to calculate how big an effect.

** Another pathetic, stupid, LIE !!

Do the simple test YOU talked about !!!!!

" For fun, and when it cools down somewhat, I'll make some boiling water
(for tea) and drop in an electrolytic while measuring the ESR with my
Bob Parker ESR meter. It should be interesting to see if practice
follows theory."

Did this exact test yesterday with a 56uF, 400V, 105C electro branded "
Jamicon ".

Started out with a reading of 0.66ohms, ended up with a reading under 0.1
ohms.

Exactly like I said previously.

BTW: Bob is an old mate of mine.

yet I'm expected to calculate how big an effect.

** No calc is even possible - you bullshitting, septic asshole.

You drag guitar amps, hi-v caps, and internal leakage,

** As well known counter examples to a whole pile of absolute CRAP you
claimed about electros.

A topic you are MONUMENTALLY WRONG ABOUT !!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW:

Was it you mother or your father who taught you to LIE and BULLSHIT like
this ?

Did your mother even know who your father was?

My god you are an asshole.


.... Phil

 

[Ian Field]

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:b3hf5cFg4tjU1@mid.individual.net...

"Jeff Liebermann = demented lunatic"


So, has anyone measured the temperature of the capacitors in a tube
type amplifier?

** As if they are all the same ....

Of course they're not all the same.

** Then you only look at those examples that are relevant.


I want to see if any of them run
anywhere close to 85C or 105C, as claimed.

** Then look at the one that was specifically mentioned.

Cos YOU claimed there were NONE and it was impossible.

" The problem is that nobody runs electrolytics at 85C. "


In particular, the big
aluminum can type capacitors that are often misplaced very close to
the tubes. You may actually be correct but I doubt it since aluminum
makes a very good IR reflector.


** The LCR caps in Marshall 100W heads and combos are sleeved in blue
plastic.

Very few electros are bare aluminium.


The caps under the chassis are probably comparatively cool.


** How the fuck would a pig ignorant, stinking radio ham like you know ??

Never seen a tube amp in his whole, stinking life.


You proclaim that leakage current is important,

** You claimed it did not EXIST - you fucking LIAR !!!!!

" A capacitor only draws current when the voltage across the
leads changes. The capacitor only dissipated power, and converts it
to heat, when the voltage changes. Pure DC across a capacitor does
nothing to produce heat."


You proclaim the temperature
has an effect on ESR, yet I'm expected to calculate how big an effect.

** Another pathetic, stupid, LIE !!

Do the simple test YOU talked about !!!!!

" For fun, and when it cools down somewhat, I'll make some boiling water
(for tea) and drop in an electrolytic while measuring the ESR with my
Bob Parker ESR meter. It should be interesting to see if practice
follows theory."

Did this exact test yesterday with a 56uF, 400V, 105C electro branded "
Jamicon ".

Started out with a reading of 0.66ohms, ended up with a reading under 0.1
ohms.

Exactly like I said previously.

BTW: Bob is an old mate of mine.


yet I'm expected to calculate how big an effect.

** No calc is even possible - you bullshitting, septic asshole.


You drag guitar amps, hi-v caps, and internal leakage,


** As well known counter examples to a whole pile of absolute CRAP you
claimed about electros.

A topic you are MONUMENTALLY WRONG ABOUT !!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW:

Was it you mother or your father who taught you to LIE and BULLSHIT
like this ?

Did your mother even know who your father was?

My god you are an asshole.

They need to turn up the variac on your ECT machine!!!

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"Ian Field" wrote in message news:U2XAt.2$iZ1.1@fx35.am4...

They need to turn up the variac on your ECT machine!!!

I doubt it goes all the way to 11.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

"Ian Field" wrote in message news:U2XAt.2$iZ1.1@fx35.am4...

They need to turn up the variac on your ECT machine!!!

I doubt it goes all the way to 11.

No doubt.

Too bad it doesn't go to 11...cubed!

 

[Ian Field]

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:kr3orl$kmk$1@dont-email.me...

"Ian Field" wrote in message news:U2XAt.2$iZ1.1@fx35.am4...
They need to turn up the variac on your ECT machine!!!

I doubt it goes all the way to 11.

IIRC - most variacs go up to 110%.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

They need to turn up the Variac on your
ECT machine!!!

I doubt it goes all the way to 11.

IIRC... Most variacs go up to 110%.

Then I guess it does go to 11!

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

They need to turn up the Variac on your
ECT machine!!!

I doubt it goes all the way to 11.

IIRC... Most variacs go up to 110%.

Then I guess it does go to 11!

All I've seen are either 1:1 at maximum, or 6:7 (120 In/140 Out) if
they have the over voltage output tap.

 

[Ian Field]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:272dnfWH6tdzNUjMnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...

William Sommerwerck wrote:

They need to turn up the Variac on your
ECT machine!!!

I doubt it goes all the way to 11.

IIRC... Most variacs go up to 110%.

Then I guess it does go to 11!


All I've seen are either 1:1 at maximum, or 6:7 (120 In/140 Out) if
they have the over voltage output tap.

The ones I've seen here in the UK have a reversible dial plate screwed to
the back of the knob - one side is calibrated in %, turn it over and its
marked in volts.

All I've seen so far had a few more turns past the live input terminal so
you could select a higher voltage than was going in, my variac is gathering
cobwebs in the garage somewhere, so its not easy to check the exact % over
Vin.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 4 Jul 2013 18:14:26 +0100, "Ian Field"
<gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:

All I've seen so far had a few more turns past the live input terminal so
you could select a higher voltage than was going in, my variac is gathering
cobwebs in the garage somewhere, so its not easy to check the exact % over
Vin.

This might help:
<http://www.ineedcoffee.com/08/hottop-roaster/images/variac500.jpg>
The scale usually says 0-100, but at 100, it's well over the input
voltage. The better variacs have voltages marked on the scale. I
have several and will dig one out later for a fast test.

More:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixKNrLjv91Y>
Note the printed scale at the beginning of the video.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Ian Field]

"Mike" <mjb@signal11.invalid> wrote in message
news:kr4fge$psr$1@posie.signal11.org.uk...

In article <272dnfWH6tdzNUjMnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

I doubt it goes all the way to 11.
IIRC... Most variacs go up to 110%.
Then I guess it does go to 11!

All I've seen are either 1:1 at maximum, or 6:7 (120 In/140 Out) if
they have the over voltage output tap.

Is that the one marked "Spinal"?

They'd just got back from a gig in "Hungaria" when they were in the
Simpsons.

 

[Mike]

In article <272dnfWH6tdzNUjMnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

I doubt it goes all the way to 11.
IIRC... Most variacs go up to 110%.
Then I guess it does go to 11!

All I've seen are either 1:1 at maximum, or 6:7 (120 In/140 Out) if
they have the over voltage output tap.

Is that the one marked "Spinal"?

--
--------------------------------------+------------------------------------
Mike Brown: mjb[-at-]signal11.org.uk | http://www.signal11.org.uk

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