Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney

[dmm]

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:58:58 +1000, "David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> wrote:

For those interested in such things:

------------------------------------------
23. Electric vehicles: Cars of the future?
EnergyAustralia invites you to this free public forum and Open Day, hosted
by guest speaker, Top Gear editorial producer and former motoring editor of
the Sydney Morning Herald, Joshua Dowling. Topics to be covered include:
? The challenges and advantages facing electric vehicles
? The differences between electric vehicles and hybrid vehicles
There will also be a display of electric and hybrid vehicles and an
EnergyAustralia representative will be discussing the potential impact of
electric vehicles on the electricity network.
Time: 10am to 2pm
Date: Sunday 26 April
Venue: Energy Efficiency Centre, Homebush Business Village Unit 12/11-21,
Underwood Road, Homebush
For more information or to register your interest, visit
http://www.eec.energyaustralia.com.au/openDay_landing.html

NLV Solar AG have commissioned Koenigsegg to build a car called the "Quant" which has a thin-film solar-cell coating
http://www.nlv-solar.com/quant/
http://www.koenigsegg.com/pressreleases.php?view=16

It's even at the 2009 Geneva Salon motor show
http://www.gizmag.com/koenigsegg-quant-512-bhp-four-seater-solar-all-electric-car/11167/picture/70903/

IF it can be produced in production quantities at a reasonable cost, and IF NLV Solar licences the technologies involved
to other major manufacturers, and IF it works as claimed, we could soon see a major shift in the way vehicles are powered.

dmm

 

[Bruce Varley]

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:49F0FF51.DAE67586@hotmail.com...

Mauried wrote:

Most of the cost is the batteries.

That's the killer, plus the cost of replacing them.

Graham

Plus the wider cost of millions of tons of electrochemical waste, once the

batteries start to wear out across the globe.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:54:32 +1000, dmm
<dmmilne_REMOVE_@ozemail.com.au> put finger to keyboard and composed:

NLV Solar AG have commissioned Koenigsegg to build a car called the "Quant" which has a thin-film solar-cell coating
http://www.nlv-solar.com/quant/
http://www.koenigsegg.com/pressreleases.php?view=16

It's even at the 2009 Geneva Salon motor show
http://www.gizmag.com/koenigsegg-quant-512-bhp-four-seater-solar-all-electric-car/11167/picture/70903/

IF it can be produced in production quantities at a reasonable cost, and IF NLV Solar licences the technologies involved
to other major manufacturers, and IF it works as claimed, we could soon see a major shift in the way vehicles are powered.

dmm

Here are some snippets from the above articles:

======================================================================
The FAES (Flow Accumulator Energy Storage) only weigh around 450 kg
and contain no hazardous material or heavy metals.

The advances in electric power generation and storage ... will enable
the NLV Quant to charge the FAES to full capacity in 20 minutes.

Power: 512 bhp
Torque: 715 nm
0 - 100 km/h: 5.2 seconds
Top speed: 275 km/h
Curb weight: 1780 kg

FAES is an electrochemical energy storage system. The gravimetric
energy density is over 170 Wh/kg, the volumetric energy density at
least 600 Wh/l. A particular feature is the voltage per individual
cell of 4 V; the cells are connected in series. The FAES technology
allows high-voltage charging to full capacity in 15–20 minutes and
gives the vehicle a range of 500 km. The additional power input from
the invisible, thin-film photovoltaic coating that covers the body of
the car further increases the range potential. The FAES has no memory
effect.
======================================================================

Based on the above information, the total energy stored in the FAES is
....

450 kg x 170 Wh/kg = 76.5 kWh

If you were to recharge this storage system in 20 minutes from dead
flat, then the required power input would be ...

76.5 x 3 = 230 kW

A 230 VAC household supply would need to deliver 1000 amps which is
clearly impossible.

However, the above articles did mention that a high voltage supply
would be required, but no details were given.

100A @ 2.3kV or 10A @ 23kV ???

The mind boggles.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:10:20 +0800, "Bruce Varley"
<bxvarley@weastnet.com.au> put finger to keyboard and composed:

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:49F0FF51.DAE67586@hotmail.com...


Mauried wrote:

Most of the cost is the batteries.

That's the killer, plus the cost of replacing them.

Graham

Plus the wider cost of millions of tons of electrochemical waste, once the
batteries start to wear out across the globe.

If the batteries are costing $30K, then wouldn't that be sufficient
incentive to recycle their materials?

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 06:04:17 +1000, Franc Zabkar
<fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> put finger to keyboard and composed:

Based on the above information, the total energy stored in the FAES is
...

450 kg x 170 Wh/kg = 76.5 kWh

ISTR that automotive lead-acid batteries have capacities of around
40Ah to 80Ah.

This equates to 12 x 80 = 960Wh.

The FAES would then be equivalent in capacity to 80 lead-acid
batteries.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[terryc]

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 06:04:17 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:

If the batteries are costing $30K, then wouldn't that be sufficient
incentive to recycle their materials?

If they can be and it is economical. AFAIUI we are not talking lead acid
batteries, but some form of new and exotic battery.

 

[Mauried]

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 06:30:23 +1000, Franc Zabkar
<fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 06:04:17 +1000, Franc Zabkar
fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> put finger to keyboard and composed:

Based on the above information, the total energy stored in the FAES is
...

450 kg x 170 Wh/kg = 76.5 kWh

ISTR that automotive lead-acid batteries have capacities of around
40Ah to 80Ah.

This equates to 12 x 80 = 960Wh.

The FAES would then be equivalent in capacity to 80 lead-acid
batteries.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

The bottom line is that the world is going to continue to be reliant
on oil for many years to come, simply as there are too many
applications for it that cant be readily replaced.
The aviation industry, the shipping industry and even the trucking
industry, as well as the worlds military forces are reliant on oil and
theres no simple replacement.
The world has enuf coal to make oil from for the next 500 years even
if no more coal reserves are discovered, so making oil from coal
should be a high priority.
Fortunately the US air force have already started.
http://www.afmc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123028544

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On 24 Apr 2009 23:00:17 GMT, terryc <newssevenspam-spam@woa.com.au>
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 06:04:17 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:

If the batteries are costing $30K, then wouldn't that be sufficient
incentive to recycle their materials?

If they can be and it is economical. AFAIUI we are not talking lead acid
batteries, but some form of new and exotic battery.

I was curious as to how these "exotic" batteries compare with Li-ion.

The following specs are for a 10.8V 4.8Ah 0.7lb Li-ion laptop battery:
http://www.superwarehouse.com/IBM_6_Cell_Lithium_Laptop_Battery/92P1101/ps/625027

It has an energy density of ...

10.8 x 4.8 / (0.7 * 0.454)
= 163 Wh/kg

The Quant's FAES has an energy density of 170 Wh/kg.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[terryc]

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 11:15:11 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:

I was curious as to how these "exotic" batteries compare with Li-ion.

Try this one;

http://www.evpower.com.au/-DIY-Small-LiFePO4-Battery-packs-.html

Probably the sort of thing you would want for a EV for around town, down
yto the shops, etc.

 

[terryc]

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 00:35:35 +0000, Mauried wrote:

The world has enuf coal to make oil from for the next 500 years even if
no more coal reserves are discovered,

Doesn't that waste quiet a bit of energy?
Might be time to just bring back a coal driven steamer?

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On 25 Apr 2009 02:56:48 GMT, terryc <newssevenspam-spam@woa.com.au>
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 11:15:11 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:


I was curious as to how these "exotic" batteries compare with Li-ion.

Try this one;

http://www.evpower.com.au/-DIY-Small-LiFePO4-Battery-packs-.html

Probably the sort of thing you would want for a EV for around town, down
yto the shops, etc.

They look impressive.

Lithium Iron Phosphate, safe battery technology.
3.2V nominal, 2.1V minimum, 4.2V maximum, 3.65V fully charged
10Ah capacity
30A continuous discharge, 120A pulse discharge
40.6mm diameter x 138mm long
365g

However, if we use 3.2V as the average discharge voltage, then the
energy density would be ...

3.2V x 10Ah / 0.365kg = 88 Wh/kg

Even at 3.65V the density is only 100 Wh/kg.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Eeyore]

terryc wrote:

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:50:54 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

Lead acid batteries weight a collosal amount for the energy they store.
And you have to drag that weight around. They also don't last very long.

blink, how is your foot?
No battery lasts long if you abuse it, but LA batteries properly used can
be ancient.

The real problem is that they are so ubiquitous and installed in
inappropriate application.

OTOH, modern batteries are basically flash in the pans.

So why is almost no-one using lead-acid ?

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Sylvia Else wrote:

terryc wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:10:12 +0100, Eeyore wrote:
"David L. Jones" wrote:

For those interested in such things:

------------------------------------------ 23. Electric vehicles: Cars
of the future?
NO.

So you do not follow the CSIRO vision where your roof is covered in
plastic upon which is printed a solar panel charging up your electric car
batteries?

How much energy per day can be captured from the surface of a car?
Incident sunlight at midday is in round figures about 1kW per square
metre,

When it's not cloudy !

but of course solar cells are not 100% efficient. Indeed, they're
nowhere near.

Not remotely.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Bruce Varley wrote:

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
Mauried wrote:

Most of the cost is the batteries.

That's the killer, plus the cost of replacing them.

Plus the wider cost of millions of tons of electrochemical waste, once the
batteries start to wear out across the globe.

I hate to think of the volume of non-benign waste that would be produced.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

terryc wrote:

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 06:04:17 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:

If the batteries are costing $30K, then wouldn't that be sufficient
incentive to recycle their materials?

If they can be and it is economical. AFAIUI we are not talking lead acid
batteries, but some form of new and exotic battery.

All the materials known to be effective electrical couples are already well
known about. Gradual development is all that's happening.

You can't grow new elements on trees.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

terryc wrote:

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 11:15:11 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:

I was curious as to how these "exotic" batteries compare with Li-ion.

Try this one;

http://www.evpower.com.au/-DIY-Small-LiFePO4-Battery-packs-.html

Probably the sort of thing you would want for a EV for around town, down
yto the shops, etc.

64Wh for $92 ?
The commonist practical battery size considered practical for an EV is in
the 10kWh area. That's about $15,000.

Remember battery life degrades when they are discharged fully.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Franc Zabkar"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Motors

"Tesla Motors' first production vehicle, the Tesla Roadster, is an
all-electric sports car. According to test results from an EPA
certified laboratory, the car has a range of 221 miles (356 km). The
company and reviewers state that the Tesla Roadster accelerates from
zero to 60 mph (100 km/h) in less than four seconds, and has a top
speed of 125 mph (201 km/h) (limited for safety). The cost of powering
the vehicle is estimated at US$0.02 per mile."

** Top Gear did a tests with that car and found it to be a piece of crap.

When driven like a sports car, the batteries lasted only minutes.

Ses what happens at 04:52.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG3bMKR5eXk

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

dmm wrote:

NLV Solar AG have commissioned Koenigsegg to build a car called the "Quant" which has a thin-film solar-cell coating

Shame that thin film solar is only ~ 7% efficient. Let's assume say 6m2 of solar panels and a high desert style insolation of
a full 8 hours at 1 kW/m2.

That's 3.36 kWh of electrical output. Maybe good enough for 10 miles.

Pointless.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

terryc wrote:

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 00:35:35 +0000, Mauried wrote:

The world has enuf coal to make oil from for the next 500 years even if
no more coal reserves are discovered,

Doesn't that waste quiet a bit of energy?

South Africa did it as did the Nazis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal#Liquefaction_-_Synthetic_fuel_Production_-_Coal-To-Liquids_.28CTL.29

Might be time to just bring back a coal driven steamer?

Vastly less efficient than ICEs. Expect auto diesels to reach 40% efficiency
in your lifetime. Large marine diesels with co-gen can already better 70%.

Graham

 

[dmm]

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 02:05:34 +0100, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

dmm wrote:

NLV Solar AG have commissioned Koenigsegg to build a car called the "Quant" which has a thin-film solar-cell coating

Shame that thin film solar is only ~ 7% efficient. Let's assume say 6m2 of solar panels and a high desert style insolation of
a full 8 hours at 1 kW/m2.

That's 3.36 kWh of electrical output. Maybe good enough for 10 miles.

Pointless.

Graham

Depends upon the numbers you're using.

NLV Solar are claiming average efficiency of 38% and over 50% at peak for a pyrite based thin film solar-cell coating,
which can even be applied over clear surfaces. Mind you, these are research based figures, which will almost certainly
be reduced in production. The Quant is about 4.9m long, and 2m wide (big car) which is about 9.8m2. The actual solar
collection area will be a great deal larger because the sides of the vehicle have not been included in these figures.

At 1kWh/m2, for 8hrs, that's between about 30kW and 40kW of electrical output. Reducing the efficiency to say 30%
would result in 23.5kW, not an insignificant number.

dmm