Electric Energy Economizer !!

[Rod Speed]

"GM" <n0_SPamhathill2000@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:3ff7fe4d$1@news.rivernet.com.au...

"Arpit" <DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:16qfvvgi22a4t0k6pauurr4vm06bl23r8r@4ax.com...
On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 18:49:28 +1100, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com
wrote:


Arpit <DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote in
message news:sd9fvvc8776aqj8ac6k7n381h7ke3dr0q4@4ax.com...

my offpeak meter was whizzing around and pressing my ear
to the water heater i can hear buzzing, ie its on. at 4:35 pm.
on a hot day when everyone will have their air conditioners on....

They dont have any real option on that, they specify an arvo charge time.

really? wow, I never knew that, I always thought it was supposed to be
at about 11 pm..... anyway, thanks for that info,

Her comes the flame war - Rod is wrong

Nope.

- I should know I work for a major supply authority in NSW

Says sweet fuck all about all of them.

and commmision and maintain frequency injection equipment.
yes - we do have scada control of frequency injection equipment
to switch off peak loads any time we like. Generally, offpeak
load is left on for the entire weekend anyway

Not necessarily in the summer.

And I have a dual channel offpeak switch anyway.

- this is why Arpits HWS is on at 4:35pm.

You dont know thats the reason with his service.

 

[Ross Mac]

"Arpit" <DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:nt8fvv8pga4ir6caokf25nspfbhehp74dt@4ax.com...

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 14:17:28 +1100, "Leon."
noemail@noemail.noemail.com> wrote:


"Arpit" <DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:urpevv82k3r0trnb0jh762fs98hn2i8a6s@4ax.com...
On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 18:11:57 GMT, "Ross Mac"
this.is.a.mung@example.invalid> wrote:


"bushbadee" <bushbadee@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:wbtJb.20877$nK2.18044@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
it doesn't work.


"Miles" <Miles_NG(RemoveThis)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ipqJb.29$9k7.14451@news.xtra.co.nz...
If this works, it amounts to theft of electricity.

"Economic Systems" <ninguna@123mail.cl> wrote in message
news:bt578b$3fofj$5@ID-174448.news.uni-berlin.de...
Hi friends:

I've developed an economizer of electrical energy for home o
industrial
use, this device causes to the electric meter that no indication
is
displayed o consumtion, there is very people has armed this
system
and
applying it
The web site with details for the assembly of this device is
in:

http://members.fortunecity.com/chileno4/Ecoe.htm

Any question will be answered throught of the email indicated in
that
web
site, or writte to this mails deleting WITHOUT_THIS.

gigawattgratisWITHOUT_THIS@123mail.cl

jarayamWITHOUT_THIS@latinmail.com

Thanks, bye.

Johnny






The only device I ever saw that really worked was a power factor
correction
device (actually it did several other things). The one we tested was
an
Electroflow ( http://www.electroflow.com ) and appeared to save us
about
12%
with an improvement in power quality as a bonus. It bought the power
factor
to pretty close to unity by offsetting the huge inductive loads on the
service from huge compressors and vacuums.
This thing in the OP seems to be voodoo to me!...Ross


No, you had a current meter, which was calibrated to read in watts.

This meant that you were paying for power you werent using IE a penalty.

Power factor correction then corrects the meter, when power factor =
1.00000 the meter shows true power. (because power is simply 240 I )

Dont know if they correct for voltage (and so the meter tells you
integral
of [RMS of voltage * instantaneous current dt ] )



But you definitely had a current meter for the case the RMS of the
voltage
is constant.




The standard rotary disk meters do a pretty damn good job of
compensating for power factor. Only instance when power factor is an
issue is in industrial applications, where you are charged a penalty
for screwing up the supply.

They charge the penalty by measuring current not power.

Nope. They measure power. You arent penalised for a poor household
power factor, only industrially. I found a url which might help you
http://dansdata.com/gz028.htm

which happens to be the number one result for 'power factor' on
google.

Yes, I agree, they measure power. That's why power factor is important when
there are inductive or capacitve loads. The formula for three phase power is
Volts X Amps X Power Factor X 1.73. If the powere factor is at 75 or 80% you
will use 20 to 25% more power to run your factory. That's how you get
penalized!! If you use a device to correct the factor, that is bring the
current and voltage close to phase unity, you will use less power and thus
have a savings. On the building we installed the correction device there was
"about" a 12% savings. That number came from the utility bill, that's why I
say about!
Take care all, Ross

 

[Charles Perry]

"Ross Mac" <this.is.a.mung@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:CD_Jb.280057$Ec1.9613771@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
<snip>

Yes, I agree, they measure power. That's why power factor is important
when
there are inductive or capacitve loads. The formula for three phase power
is
Volts X Amps X Power Factor X 1.73. If the powere factor is at 75 or 80%
you
will use 20 to 25% more power to run your factory. That's how you get
penalized!! If you use a device to correct the factor, that is bring the
current and voltage close to phase unity, you will use less power and thus
have a savings. On the building we installed the correction device there
was
"about" a 12% savings. That number came from the utility bill, that's why
I
say about!
Take care all, Ross

The confusion is with the term "power". The formula you gave is for real
power (with some approximations/assumptions). When you correct power factor
you reduce the amount of reactive power that you are using. They are NOT
the same thing.

Charles Perry P.E.

 

[Ross Mac]

"Charles Perry" <pipesandtobacco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bt9vr6$4tmu9$1@ID-103962.news.uni-berlin.de...

"Ross Mac" <this.is.a.mung@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:CD_Jb.280057$Ec1.9613771@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
snip

Yes, I agree, they measure power. That's why power factor is important
when
there are inductive or capacitve loads. The formula for three phase
power
is
Volts X Amps X Power Factor X 1.73. If the powere factor is at 75 or 80%
you
will use 20 to 25% more power to run your factory. That's how you get
penalized!! If you use a device to correct the factor, that is bring the
current and voltage close to phase unity, you will use less power and
thus
have a savings. On the building we installed the correction device there
was
"about" a 12% savings. That number came from the utility bill, that's
why
I
say about!
Take care all, Ross


The confusion is with the term "power". The formula you gave is for real
power (with some approximations/assumptions). When you correct power
factor
you reduce the amount of reactive power that you are using. They are NOT
the same thing.

Charles Perry P.E.


Since power is measured by the meter, when the power factor is corrected,

would there not be a savings of power ???

 

[Charles Perry]

"Ross Mac" <this.is.a.mung@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:yo0Kb.597415$0v4.23524771@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

"Charles Perry" <pipesandtobacco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bt9vr6$4tmu9$1@ID-103962.news.uni-berlin.de...

"Ross Mac" <this.is.a.mung@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:CD_Jb.280057$Ec1.9613771@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
snip

Yes, I agree, they measure power. That's why power factor is important
when
there are inductive or capacitve loads. The formula for three phase
power
is
Volts X Amps X Power Factor X 1.73. If the powere factor is at 75 or
80%
you
will use 20 to 25% more power to run your factory. That's how you get
penalized!! If you use a device to correct the factor, that is bring
the
current and voltage close to phase unity, you will use less power and
thus
have a savings. On the building we installed the correction device
there
was
"about" a 12% savings. That number came from the utility bill, that's
why
I
say about!
Take care all, Ross


The confusion is with the term "power". The formula you gave is for
real
power (with some approximations/assumptions). When you correct power
factor
you reduce the amount of reactive power that you are using. They are
NOT
the same thing.

Charles Perry P.E.


Since power is measured by the meter, when the power factor is corrected,
would there not be a savings of power ???


No. An industrial meter measures real power (kWh) as well as reactive power

(either kvarh or KVA demand which can be used to calculate the power factor
at peak load). In the good old days, every industrial customer had 2
meters: one to measure real power and one to measure some form of reactive
or apparent power. Now both can be done with a single electronic meter.
You do not save real power (well not an appreciable amount) when you correct
power factor. You do reduce your reactive power and apparant power.

Charles Perry P.E.

 

[zxc]

jq
"GM" <n0_SPamhathill2000@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:<3ff7fe4d$1@news.rivernet.com.au>...

"Arpit" <DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:16qfvvgi22a4t0k6pauurr4vm06bl23r8r@4ax.com...
On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 18:49:28 +1100, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com
wrote:


Arpit <DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote in
message news:sd9fvvc8776aqj8ac6k7n381h7ke3dr0q4@4ax.com...

my offpeak meter was whizzing around and pressing my ear
to the water heater i can hear buzzing, ie its on. at 4:35 pm.
on a hot day when everyone will have their air conditioners on....

They dont have any real option on that, they specify an arvo charge time.

really? wow, I never knew that, I always thought it was supposed to be
at about 11 pm..... anyway, thanks for that info,

Arpit Thomas

Her comes the flame war - Rod is wrong - I should know I work for a major
supply authority in NSW and commmision and maintain frequency injection
equipment. yes - we do have scada control of frequency injection equipment
to switch off peak loads any time we like. Generally, offpeak load is left
on for the entire weekend anyway - this is why Arpits HWS is on at 4:35pm.
Regards
GM

 

[Ross Mac]

"Charles Perry" <pipesandtobacco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bta4q6$47h8i$1@ID-103962.news.uni-berlin.de...

"Ross Mac" <this.is.a.mung@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:yo0Kb.597415$0v4.23524771@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

"Charles Perry" <pipesandtobacco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bt9vr6$4tmu9$1@ID-103962.news.uni-berlin.de...

"Ross Mac" <this.is.a.mung@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:CD_Jb.280057$Ec1.9613771@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
snip

Yes, I agree, they measure power. That's why power factor is
important
when
there are inductive or capacitve loads. The formula for three phase
power
is
Volts X Amps X Power Factor X 1.73. If the powere factor is at 75 or
80%
you
will use 20 to 25% more power to run your factory. That's how you
get
penalized!! If you use a device to correct the factor, that is bring
the
current and voltage close to phase unity, you will use less power
and
thus
have a savings. On the building we installed the correction device
there
was
"about" a 12% savings. That number came from the utility bill,
that's
why
I
say about!
Take care all, Ross


The confusion is with the term "power". The formula you gave is for
real
power (with some approximations/assumptions). When you correct power
factor
you reduce the amount of reactive power that you are using. They are
NOT
the same thing.

Charles Perry P.E.


Since power is measured by the meter, when the power factor is
corrected,
would there not be a savings of power ???


No. An industrial meter measures real power (kWh) as well as reactive
power
(either kvarh or KVA demand which can be used to calculate the power
factor
at peak load). In the good old days, every industrial customer had 2
meters: one to measure real power and one to measure some form of reactive
or apparent power. Now both can be done with a single electronic meter.
You do not save real power (well not an appreciable amount) when you
correct
power factor. You do reduce your reactive power and apparant power.

Charles Perry P.E.


Thanks...that is interesting!

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.engr.electrical.compliance that Ross Mac <this.is.a.mung@e
xample.invalid> wrote (in <yo0Kb.597415$0v4.23524771@bgtnsc04-news.ops.w
orldnet.att.net&gt about 'Electric Energy Economizer !!', on Sun, 4 Jan
2004:

Since power is measured by the meter, when the power factor is corrected,
would there not be a savings of power ???

The ordinary rotating disc meters measure real power only. They do not
measure 'reactive power', which is badly named anyway.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

 

[Jim Ghrist]

The input to the rectifier, full-wave or half-wave, is ac not dc. The
output is dc. If you use a rectifier, then an inverter, the metered power
will be higher because of losses in the rectifier/inverter. You could,
however, add a battery and some circuitry and have power for a period of
time if the power goes off. You might even be able to patent the device and
sell it -- I would suggest a name like "Uninterruptible Power Supply" or UPS
for short. Or has someone already thought of this? ;-)


"Leon." <noemail@noemail.noemail.com> wrote in message
news:3ff78909$1@news.rivernet.com.au...

"BFoelsch" <BFoelsch@snet.ditch.this.net> wrote in message
news:lsednZwSzrsflGqiRVn-uQ@giganews.com...
There are a few ways you can fool a spinning-disk wattmeter, but they
fool
the meter, they don't actually reduce electrical consumption.

Most of these schemes just cause a DC current to flow througn the
current
coils, which generates a DC field that acts to retard the rotation of
the
disk just like the retarding magnets do. It is very hard to get enough
DC
to
flow, however, unless you have access to both the line and load sides of
the
meter.




Is it hard to get DC to flow ?



What if we use single diode and only take power from the half wave ?
eg we take 30 amps DC for the period the voltage is above N volts.


And What if we use a full wave rectifier instead of half wave ?

What power can we draw ?
What power would the meter read ?


I think thats what he was on about . using DC... Current limit the
charging
of a capacitor so that the current through the wattmeter is DC and then
run an invertor.

 

[Peter]

On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 22:52:46 -0600, "Economic Systems"
<ninguna@123mail.cl> wrote:

Hi friends:

I've developed an economizer of electrical energy for home o industrial
use, this device causes to the electric meter that no indication is
displayed o consumtion, there is very people has armed this system and
applying it
The web site with details for the assembly of this device is in:

I have never figured how it was done (I must ask one of the old timers

from that utility), but someone managed to 'reverse' the meter so much
that it appeared the local muni owed him money (nowadays the computer
would probably spit out a whopping big bill).

An employee was dispatched to install a meter up the pole. He
carefully spliced the two 'live' meter tails to the service conductor
then cut the conductor so the meter was 'inserted' without
interrupting supply. He then asked the householder to turn on a few
appliances so he could check that the meter was working!

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.engr.electrical.compliance that Peter
<peterwn@parazzdise.net.nz> wrote (in <3ff9b10a.4475945@news.paradise.ne
t.nz&gt about 'Electric Energy Economizer !!', on Mon, 5 Jan 2004:

I have never figured how it was done (I must ask one of the old timers
from that utility),

You use a low-voltage, heavy current transformer to drive a current
backwards through the current coil of the meter. But modern meters won't
let you drive the disc backwards, and there are BIG sparks when you
connect it, anyway, so if your consumption appears to suddenly decrease,
the utility people look for the resulting burn marks on the meter tails.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

 

[Keith R. Williams]

In article <oj4v+tAOlR+$EwCo@jmwa.demon.co.uk>,
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk says...

I read in sci.engr.electrical.compliance that Ross Mac <this.is.a.mung@e
xample.invalid> wrote (in <yo0Kb.597415$0v4.23524771@bgtnsc04-news.ops.w
orldnet.att.net&gt about 'Electric Energy Economizer !!', on Sun, 4 Jan
2004:

Since power is measured by the meter, when the power factor is corrected,
would there not be a savings of power ???

The ordinary rotating disc meters measure real power only. They do not
measure 'reactive power', which is badly named anyway.

You prefer "imaginary" power? My brother, an engineer in the
power biz, *hates* that term (though it is real ;-). The media
(thus politicians) can't grasp the concept of the "imaginary", so
cannot spend money on the problem. According to him, the August
debacle wouldn't have happened if the power companies could
control the 'j'. ...it's not like "imaginary" power is free
either!

--
Keith

 

[Bill Bailley]

I have never figured how it was done (I must ask one of the old timers
from that utility), but someone managed to 'reverse' the meter so much
that it appeared the local muni owed him money (nowadays the computer
would probably spit out a whopping big bill).

An employee was dispatched to install a meter up the pole. He
carefully spliced the two 'live' meter tails to the service conductor
then cut the conductor so the meter was 'inserted' without
interrupting supply. He then asked the householder to turn on a few
appliances so he could check that the meter was working!

Gas meters on the other hand . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
..!

 

[Ken Taylor]

"Bill Bailley" <JustMe@Home> wrote in message
news:3ffa269c$0$18747$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

I have never figured how it was done (I must ask one of the old timers
from that utility), but someone managed to 'reverse' the meter so much
that it appeared the local muni owed him money (nowadays the computer
would probably spit out a whopping big bill).

An employee was dispatched to install a meter up the pole. He
carefully spliced the two 'live' meter tails to the service conductor
then cut the conductor so the meter was 'inserted' without
interrupting supply. He then asked the householder to turn on a few
appliances so he could check that the meter was working!


Gas meters on the other hand . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
.!
I had a gas meter changed by the gas company in Melbourne (Australia) once

while I was at work. They carefully turned off the supply, took out the old
meter, connected the new one then left me a note saying if I had trouble
lighting appliances to call and they would come out again. I went out (in
the dark) turned on the valve then went inside, to find no appliances
worked. Long story short - they hadn't connected the outlet from the meter,
gas was going into the free air! *VERY* lucky.......

Ken

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.engr.electrical.compliance that Keith R. Williams
<krw@attglobal.net> wrote (in <MPG.1a63df869880ac1998aa6b@enews.newsguy.
com&gt about 'Electric Energy Economizer !!', on Mon, 5 Jan 2004:

In article <oj4v+tAOlR+$EwCo@jmwa.demon.co.uk>,
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk says...
I read in sci.engr.electrical.compliance that Ross Mac <this.is.a.mung@e
xample.invalid> wrote (in <yo0Kb.597415$0v4.23524771@bgtnsc04-news.ops.w
orldnet.att.net&gt about 'Electric Energy Economizer !!', on Sun, 4 Jan
2004:

Since power is measured by the meter, when the power factor is corrected,
would there not be a savings of power ???

The ordinary rotating disc meters measure real power only. They do not
measure 'reactive power', which is badly named anyway.

You prefer "imaginary" power? My brother, an engineer in the
power biz, *hates* that term (though it is real ;-). The media
(thus politicians) can't grasp the concept of the "imaginary", so
cannot spend money on the problem. According to him, the August
debacle wouldn't have happened if the power companies could
control the 'j'. ...it's not like "imaginary" power is free
either!

No, I can see the problems with 'imaginary', which is also a poor name
by itself. Both words, 'reactive' and 'power' are misleading to non-
technical people. I don't have a suggestion for a better name that I
feel is good enough to withstand the inevitable challenges.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.engr.electrical.compliance that Bill Bailley
<JustMe@Home.?> wrote (in <3ffa269c$0$18747$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a
u&gt about 'Electric Energy Economizer !!', on Tue, 6 Jan 2004:

I have never figured how it was done (I must ask one of the old timers
from that utility), but someone managed to 'reverse' the meter so much
that it appeared the local muni owed him money (nowadays the computer
would probably spit out a whopping big bill).

An employee was dispatched to install a meter up the pole. He
carefully spliced the two 'live' meter tails to the service conductor
then cut the conductor so the meter was 'inserted' without
interrupting supply. He then asked the householder to turn on a few
appliances so he could check that the meter was working!


Gas meters on the other hand . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
.!


You are in deep trouble if you have an AC gas supply, but you might get

an AC water supply. It's called 'water hammer' and can be LOUD!!!
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.engr.electrical.compliance that Ken Taylor
<ken123@xtra.co.nz> wrote (in <btd9qp$5qnu9$1@ID-76636.news.uni-
berlin.de&gt about 'Electric Energy Economizer !!', on Tue, 6 Jan 2004:

I had a gas meter changed by the gas company in Melbourne (Australia) once
while I was at work. They carefully turned off the supply, took out the old
meter, connected the new one then left me a note saying if I had trouble
lighting appliances to call and they would come out again. I went out (in
the dark) turned on the valve then went inside, to find no appliances
worked. Long story short - they hadn't connected the outlet from the meter,
gas was going into the free air! *VERY* lucky.......

In UK, gas fitting is done by specially trained CORGIs.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

 

[Peter]

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:55:11 -0500, Keith R. Williams
<krw@attglobal.net> wrote:

You prefer "imaginary" power? My brother, an engineer in the
power biz, *hates* that term (though it is real ;-). The media
(thus politicians) can't grasp the concept of the "imaginary", so
cannot spend money on the problem. According to him, the August
debacle wouldn't have happened if the power companies could
control the 'j'. ...it's not like "imaginary" power is free
either!

Had a similar problem with electricity network protection (like fuses

etc but on a grander scale). Bean counters wanted cost justification
for 'duplicate' protection, so we called it 'local backup protection'.

 

[Trevor Barton]

On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 06:18:40 +0000, John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.engr.electrical.compliance that Ken Taylor
ken123@xtra.co.nz> wrote (in <btd9qp$5qnu9$1@ID-76636.news.uni-
berlin.de&gt about 'Electric Energy Economizer !!', on Tue, 6 Jan 2004:

I had a gas meter changed by the gas company in Melbourne (Australia) once
while I was at work. They carefully turned off the supply, took out the old
meter, connected the new one then left me a note saying if I had trouble
lighting appliances to call and they would come out again. I went out (in
the dark) turned on the valve then went inside, to find no appliances
worked. Long story short - they hadn't connected the outlet from the meter,
gas was going into the free air! *VERY* lucky.......

In UK, gas fitting is done by specially trained CORGIs.

Assuming Princess Whatsername's Bull Terrier ain't et'em first.

--
Trevor Barton

 

[Mark Harriss]

John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.engr.electrical.compliance that Peter
peterwn@parazzdise.net.nz> wrote (in <3ff9b10a.4475945@news.paradise.ne
t.nz&gt about 'Electric Energy Economizer !!', on Mon, 5 Jan 2004:

I have never figured how it was done (I must ask one of the old timers
from that utility),

You use a low-voltage, heavy current transformer to drive a current
backwards through the current coil of the meter. But modern meters won't
let you drive the disc backwards, and there are BIG sparks when you
connect it, anyway, so if your consumption appears to suddenly decrease,
the utility people look for the resulting burn marks on the meter tails.

An engineer I know had a welder that made his meter run
backwards, I don't know what type it was though, but just using it was
enough.