EAGLE Netlist conversion

John Popelish · Nov 24, 2004

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

Z-N tuning is an experimental controller tuning method. It tends to be
a bit aggressive for real systems (so, increase the P. band). I've got
a copy of the original 1942 paper around somewhere if you can't find
it online (shouldn't be that hard).

Walter Driedger has posted a PDF copy of the world famous Z-N paper on
his web site:
http://www.driedger.ca/
http://www.driedger.ca/Z-N/Z-N.html
--
John Popelish

John Popelish · Nov 24, 2004

John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:12:33 -0500, John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net
wrote:

Eliminating that overshoot is one of the uses of properly applied
derivative.

I never could get derivative to work in this particular application.
The thermocouple is in a dewar maybe a foot downstream of the heater,
and the gas flow isn't fully mixed when it hits the t/c. The heater
emits four little jets of hot air, sort of like Stripe toothpaste. So
the temperature is literally noisy, and derivative goes sort of crazy
if set to any useful-to-the-dynamics level. That's a common problem in
flow systems. I designed all sorts of cute flow stirring devices (a
simple spring isn't bad) but couldn't get anybody interested in poking
them into the dewar.

Customers are the other big control problem.

Dead time and noise definitely are limiting factors when applying
derivative. Usually the derivative effect has to include a low pass
roll off pole so that the phase lead of the derivative applies to a
narrow band of frequencies between the closed loop dominant pole and
the 1/(dead time) and noise frequencies.

Often you can do better by adding a second control loop that measures
the temperature very close to the heater that is not affected by that
dead time and noise, and control its setpoint (between judicious
limits) with the controller that watches the actual process that is
downstream.

--
John Popelish

Jim Thompson · Nov 24, 2004

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:10:18 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:44:26 -0500, the renowned John Popelish
jpopelish@rica.net> wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

Z-N tuning is an experimental controller tuning method. It tends to be
a bit aggressive for real systems (so, increase the P. band). I've got
a copy of the original 1942 paper around somewhere if you can't find
it online (shouldn't be that hard).

Walter Driedger has posted a PDF copy of the world famous Z-N paper on
his web site:
http://www.driedger.ca/
http://www.driedger.ca/Z-N/Z-N.html

Okay, that's a nice HTML version. I've got a 5M PDF scan version of
the ASME paper here:

http://members.rogers.com/speff/Ziegler-Nichols.pdf

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

John Popelish · Nov 24, 2004

Rich Grise wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:14:02 -0800, Tim Wescott wrote:

Martin Riddle wrote:

There is PID without tears on Embedded.com (I think), which a simplistic view.

"PID Without a PhD", and that's a "simplified" view, please. Inspired
by the directions given to union millwrights by control engineers who
aren't allowed to touch the equipment in many, if not most, mills.
Written by some schmo named "Wescott". Available through
http://www.wescottdesign.com/articles/pidwophd.html.

It certainly doesn't teach control theory, but it will let you twiddle
the knobs to get a working system most of the time (predicting how well
you'll like the result before you start requires control theory, however).

Ah! Finally! The crux! I see it all now!

It's Black Magic!

If you want to learn the twiddle method of tuning, I have written a
tutorial for non engineers that has been posted at:

http://www.tcnj.edu/~rgraham/PID/popelish.html

--
John Popelish

Tom Seim · Nov 24, 2004

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message news:<419ECE8E.48D8@armory.com>...

Pig Bladder wrote:

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:25:16 +0000, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Mark Fergerson wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:47:48 -0700, Mark Fergerson <nunya@biz.ness
wrote:

We need to share the profit of production entirely equally, and
then we'll see the average buying power triple, when we prevent
the rich from stealing it all.

No, we'd see zero investment, gross scarcities, and a tripling of
prices through inflation. And that the short-term; it would be worse
longterm.

Which appears to be exactly what RSW wants.
-----------------------------
No, that's your lie, and that what I propose would lead us to that
is merely another of your lies.

Investment is simply not needed in a Communism, since the People can
mandate...

I don't know what planet you're from, but on Earth the people have
just mandated George W. Bush.
The Pig Bladder From Uranus,
-----------------------------
51%? How impressive is that now?

Not only that, but it was done without southern "Democrats", who used
to vote Democratic without knowing why. Even WITHOUT them we very
nearly beat Bush. This means that liberals are actually the largest
group that we have EVER been!

-Steve

I hope you're around to run the Dem's 2008 campaign (YES!!!).

Tim Wescott · Nov 24, 2004

Rich Grise wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:14:02 -0800, Tim Wescott wrote:

Martin Riddle wrote:

There is PID without tears on Embedded.com (I think), which a simplistic view.

"PID Without a PhD", and that's a "simplified" view, please. Inspired
by the directions given to union millwrights by control engineers who
aren't allowed to touch the equipment in many, if not most, mills.
Written by some schmo named "Wescott". Available through
http://www.wescottdesign.com/articles/pidwophd.html.

It certainly doesn't teach control theory, but it will let you twiddle
the knobs to get a working system most of the time (predicting how well
you'll like the result before you start requires control theory, however).

Ah! Finally! The crux! I see it all now!

It's Black Magic!

No, if you really want to do it well it's even worse than that: you

have to be able to comfortably move between rarefied math (there are
probably as many control systems PhD's handed out by math departments as
engineering ones) and icky greasy mechanisms that _may_ be working the
way they are because you've had your head up your ass _again_ but _may_
be working the way they are because some assembly person left a bearing
loose two layers down in the mechanism.

But it's a hell of a lot of fun when it all comes together.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Rhett Oracle · Nov 24, 2004

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:11:56 -0800, Tom Seim wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message news:<419ECE8E.48D8@armory.com>...
Pig Bladder wrote:

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:25:16 +0000, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Mark Fergerson wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:47:48 -0700, Mark Fergerson <nunya@biz.ness
wrote:

We need to share the profit of production entirely equally, and
then we'll see the average buying power triple, when we prevent
the rich from stealing it all.

No, we'd see zero investment, gross scarcities, and a tripling of
prices through inflation. And that the short-term; it would be worse
longterm.

Which appears to be exactly what RSW wants.
-----------------------------
No, that's your lie, and that what I propose would lead us to that
is merely another of your lies.

Investment is simply not needed in a Communism, since the People can
mandate...

I don't know what planet you're from, but on Earth the people have
just mandated George W. Bush.
The Pig Bladder From Uranus,
-----------------------------
51%? How impressive is that now?

Not only that, but it was done without southern "Democrats", who used
to vote Democratic without knowing why. Even WITHOUT them we very
nearly beat Bush. This means that liberals are actually the largest
group that we have EVER been!

-Steve

I hope you're around to run the Dem's 2008 campaign (YES!!!).

Why? Which minion are the illuminati running that year?

John Larkin · Nov 24, 2004

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:51:13 GMT, Rhett Oracle
<rhett97@marketbanker.com> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:11:56 -0800, Tom Seim wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message news:<419ECE8E.48D8@armory.com>...
Pig Bladder wrote:

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:25:16 +0000, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Mark Fergerson wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:47:48 -0700, Mark Fergerson <nunya@biz.ness
wrote:

We need to share the profit of production entirely equally, and
then we'll see the average buying power triple, when we prevent
the rich from stealing it all.

No, we'd see zero investment, gross scarcities, and a tripling of
prices through inflation. And that the short-term; it would be worse
longterm.

Which appears to be exactly what RSW wants.
-----------------------------
No, that's your lie, and that what I propose would lead us to that
is merely another of your lies.

Investment is simply not needed in a Communism, since the People can
mandate...

I don't know what planet you're from, but on Earth the people have
just mandated George W. Bush.
The Pig Bladder From Uranus,
-----------------------------
51%? How impressive is that now?

Not only that, but it was done without southern "Democrats", who used
to vote Democratic without knowing why. Even WITHOUT them we very
nearly beat Bush. This means that liberals are actually the largest
group that we have EVER been!

-Steve

I hope you're around to run the Dem's 2008 campaign (YES!!!).

Why? Which minion are the illuminati running that year?

I bet you and Pig Bladder could have a long discussion on that
subject.

John

Pig Bladder · Nov 24, 2004

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:57:30 -0800, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:51:13 GMT, Rhett Oracle
rhett97@marketbanker.com> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:11:56 -0800, Tom Seim wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message news:<419ECE8E.48D8@armory.com>...
Pig Bladder wrote:

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:25:16 +0000, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Mark Fergerson wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:47:48 -0700, Mark Fergerson <nunya@biz.ness
wrote:

We need to share the profit of production entirely equally, and
then we'll see the average buying power triple, when we prevent
the rich from stealing it all.

No, we'd see zero investment, gross scarcities, and a tripling of
prices through inflation. And that the short-term; it would be worse
longterm.

Which appears to be exactly what RSW wants.
-----------------------------
No, that's your lie, and that what I propose would lead us to that
is merely another of your lies.

Investment is simply not needed in a Communism, since the People can
mandate...

I don't know what planet you're from, but on Earth the people have
just mandated George W. Bush.
The Pig Bladder From Uranus,
-----------------------------
51%? How impressive is that now?

Not only that, but it was done without southern "Democrats", who used
to vote Democratic without knowing why. Even WITHOUT them we very
nearly beat Bush. This means that liberals are actually the largest
group that we have EVER been!

-Steve

I hope you're around to run the Dem's 2008 campaign (YES!!!).

Why? Which minion are the illuminati running that year?

I bet you and Pig Bladder could have a long discussion on that
subject.

Depends on if we trip over our groupies, admirers, and hero-worshipers.
--
The Pig Bladder From Uranus, still waiting for
some hot babe to ask what my favorite planet is.

Terry Given · Nov 24, 2004

John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:50:08 +1300, Terry Given <my_name@ieee.org
wrote:

Hmmm, guys, very interesting point. In most of the loops I've done,
the setpoint change just shoots through the error amp and the pid
stuff and sort of comes out OK, but I can see how that ought to be
optimizable.

John

And of course in our smps error-amps the setpoint connection is
hard-wired, and causes the overshoot that makes us use soft-start
circuitry

Cheers
Terry

Are you saying that the people who design switcher chips don't know
much about control strategies? Shocking, Shocking!

John

I am saying (albeit indirectly) that setpoint weighting/removal is not
so easy/obvious in the analogue world. Actually its pretty
counter-intuitive if you dont do the maths.

Cheers
Terry

Pig Bladder · Nov 24, 2004

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:03:52 +0000, Detached Observer wrote:

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote in
message news:ubh9q0p89pri89iih6oeept11celt00ep4@4ax.com...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:22:58 GMT, Pig Bladder
pig_bladder@anyspammer.org> wrote:

I bet you and Pig Bladder could have a long discussion on that
subject.

Depends on if we trip over our groupies, admirers, and hero-worshipers.

Not to mention all those hot babes that groove on your pickup line.

I wonder if Grise thinks he's trolling Larkin, or Larkin thinks he's
trolling Grise.

Who the fuck are you?
--
The Pig Bladder From Uranus, still waiting for
some hot babe to ask what my favorite planet is.

Detached Observer · Nov 24, 2004

"Pig Bladder" <pig_bladder@anyspammer.org> wrote in message
news

an.2004.11.24.22.15.58.946210@anyspammer.org...

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:03:52 +0000, Detached Observer wrote:

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote in
message news:ubh9q0p89pri89iih6oeept11celt00ep4@4ax.com...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:22:58 GMT, Pig Bladder
pig_bladder@anyspammer.org> wrote:

I bet you and Pig Bladder could have a long discussion on that
subject.

Depends on if we trip over our groupies, admirers, and
hero-worshipers.

Not to mention all those hot babes that groove on your pickup line.

I wonder if Grise thinks he's trolling Larkin, or Larkin thinks he's
trolling Grise.

Who the fuck are you?
--
The Pig Bladder From Uranus, still waiting for
some hot babe to ask what my favorite planet is.

Just passin' thru - it's a big sandbox, after all.

- Detached

Jim Thompson · Nov 25, 2004

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 01:58:41 +0000, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

John Woodgate? Haven't heard from him in awhile. Anyone know if he's
OK?

Dunno. Been wondering same since I made a rude comment about the IEC.

Hope he's just away and back soon.

Graham

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Spehro Pefhany · Nov 25, 2004

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:15:57 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 01:58:41 +0000, Pooh Bear
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

John Woodgate? Haven't heard from him in awhile. Anyone know if he's
OK?

Dunno. Been wondering same since I made a rude comment about the IEC.

Hope he's just away and back soon.

Graham

His last post was October 8... hopefully he is just sick of American
politics ;-)

...Jim Thompson

He's also not been posting in sci.lang.translation and his other usual
haunts. Hopefully on vacation or something.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Blair P. Houghton · Nov 25, 2004

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 00:56:21 GMT, Blair P. Houghton <b@p.h> wrote:

Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
Don't waste your money supporting the French enemy. Buy American or
Aussie !-)

Your money doesn't support the French anyway. At least, not
more than 70% of what it used to, ever since George "Economic
Disaster" Bush took over the dollar.

"So your $300 bribe from the Junta
is worth only $210 now. And it only
cost 1200 American lives. Happy?"

The price of the Euro is indeed a disaster... for Europe. I could
either let my products get cheaper in Europe and undercut my
competitors, or raise my European prices and make more money. But
wait... I don't have any European competitors! Guess I know what I'll
do...

Another black-is-white pundit heard from.

--Blair
"Who cares how Europe feels?"

Jim Thompson · Nov 25, 2004

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:21:46 GMT, Blair P. Houghton <b@p.h> wrote:

Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 00:56:21 GMT, Blair P. Houghton <b@p.h> wrote:

Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
Don't waste your money supporting the French enemy. Buy American or
Aussie !-)

Your money doesn't support the French anyway. At least, not
more than 70% of what it used to, ever since George "Economic
Disaster" Bush took over the dollar.

"So your $300 bribe from the Junta
is worth only $210 now. And it only
cost 1200 American lives. Happy?"

Poor clueless Democrat. Are you having any trouble buying _anything_
at a good price?

Yes; I can't seem to find a Republican with any integrity anywhere.

--Blair
"Oh, and I'm not a Democrat."

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Frank Bemelman · Nov 25, 2004

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> schreef in bericht
news:s2ncq0p8fn2hfoalmtqkofp0hilcvm18sn@4ax.com...

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:49:47 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

John Woodgate? Haven't heard from him in awhile. Anyone know if he's
OK?

...Jim Thompson

Is anyone paying attention? I sent JW an E-mail and he replied. And
I posted his reply about 6 hours ago. He's fine, just busy.

...Jim Thompson

I'm paying attention, and I notice that you are talking
to yourself now.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'x' and 'invalid' when replying by email)

Rich Grise · Nov 26, 2004

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:29:21 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:49:47 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

John Woodgate? Haven't heard from him in awhile. Anyone know if he's
OK?

...Jim Thompson

Is anyone paying attention? I sent JW an E-mail and he replied. And
I posted his reply about 6 hours ago. He's fine, just busy.

I am, but didn't think that "Me, too" would contribute much. Glad to hear
he's OK, albeit I hadn't really been all that worried - I am "sending good
energy" to Pat Volkerding, however, who seems to be having some medical
situation, although, lemme see...
http://slackware.osuosl.org/slackware-current/PAT-NEEDS-YOUR-HELP.txt

If you pray or anything, or know somebody who knows somebody medical, this
is a gentleman who appears to actually need some help, and he would be
sorely missed by a community of misfits of which I proudly count myself an
honorary member, Slackers. There's much more on him in
news:alt.os.linux.slackware .

Just sort of had a little urge to post this.

Thanks,
Rich

Pig Bladder · Nov 26, 2004

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:46:17 +0100, Frank Bemelman wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> schreef in bericht
news:s2ncq0p8fn2hfoalmtqkofp0hilcvm18sn@4ax.com...
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:49:47 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

John Woodgate? Haven't heard from him in awhile. Anyone know if he's
OK?

...Jim Thompson

Is anyone paying attention? I sent JW an E-mail and he replied. And
I posted his reply about 6 hours ago. He's fine, just busy.

...Jim Thompson

I'm paying attention, and I notice that you are talking
to yourself now.

Hey, been there, done that!
--
The Pig Bladder From Uranus, still waiting for
some hot babe to ask what my favorite planet is.

R. Steve Walz · Nov 26, 2004

Rich The Philosophizer wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:44:28 +0000, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Mark Fergerson wrote:

Rich The Philosophizer wrote:
------------

Note to Rich, this above would indicate a post, not cited, with the
attribution marks in its body:
"

"
In other words it was an accidental fragment, but clearly not yours.

That's what I've been trying to tell you. Do you or do
you not believe in free will? What you've been proposing is
tantamount to "relieving" every being of it, not just its
consequences. Free will is totally valueless unless we learn
the lesson of _consequences_. That's what timebound
existence is all about.
----------------------------
Mr. Walz, would you please be so kind as to do the courtesy of citing
exactly when and where I am alleged to have said this? Because I have
never said this, ergo you are a liar or hallucinating.

Thank you.
Rich
----------------

One: I didn't, the attributions do not indicate that.

Two: I was expostulating. If the shoe doesn't fit, then stop trying to
put it on, and put it back in the box.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

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