e-mail stamps a 'comin?

B

Baphomet

Guest
N.Y. Times

February 2, 2004
By SAUL HANSELL

Should people have to buy electronic stamps to send e-mail?

Some Internet experts have long suggested that the rising
tide of junk e-mail, or spam, would turn into a trickle if
senders had to pay even as little as a penny for each
message they sent. Such an amount might be minor for
legitimate commerce and communications, but it could
destroy businesses that send a million offers in hopes that
10 people will respond. The idea has been dismissed both as
impractical and against the free spirit of the Internet.

Now, though, the idea of e-mail postage is getting a second
look from the owners of the two largest e-mail systems in
the world, Microsoft and Yahoo.

Ten days ago, Bill Gates, Microsoft's chairman, told the
World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, that spam would
not be a problem in two years, in part because of systems
that would require people to pay money to send e-mail.
Yahoo, meanwhile, is quietly evaluating an e-mail postage
plan being developed by Goodmail, a Silicon Valley start-up
company.

"The fundamental problem with spam is there is not enough
friction in sending e-mail," said Brad Garlinghouse,
Yahoo's manager for communications products.

The company is intrigued by the idea of postage, Mr.
Garlinghouse said, because it would force mailers to send
only those offers a significant number of people might
accept. "All of a sudden, spammers can't behave without
regard for the Internet providers' or end users' interests,
" he said.

Neither Yahoo nor Microsoft have made any commitment to
charging postage, in part because the idea still faces
substantial opposition among Internet users.

"Damn if I will pay postage for my nice list," said David
Farber, a computer scientist at the University of
Pennsylvania, who runs a mailing list on technology and
policy with 30,000 recipients. He said electronic postage
systems are likely to be too complex and would charge
noncommercial users who should be able to send e-mail free.

"I suspect the cost of postage will start out small and it
will rapidly escalate," he added.

In the meantime, the big Internet providers, including
Microsoft and Yahoo, in recent weeks have renewed talks
that stalled last year about creating technological
standards to help identify the senders of legitimate
e-mail. That way, spammers would either have to identify
themselves or risk that users would discard all anonymous
mail.

But for the big Internet access providers, or I.S.P.'s, the
prospect of e-mail postage creating a new revenue stream
that could help offset the cost of their e-mail systems is
undeniably attractive.

"Sending large volumes of e-mail involve costs that are
paid for by the I.S.P.'s and eventually by consumers," said
Linda Beck, executive vice president for operations at
EarthLink. "Should there be some sort of financial
responsibility borne by the originators of these large
volume programs? I think there should." E-mail between
private individuals, she added, ought to remain free.

Differentiating among classes of e-mail is one of the
substantial technical difficulties that e-mail postage
proposals face. In wrestling with this matter, academic
researchers have proposed complex stamp systems in which
each e-mail recipient sets the price for a message to enter
his or her in-box. Mr. Gates talked at Davos about a system
that would allow users to waive charges for friends and
relatives.

Goodmail, founded by Daniel T. Dreymann, an Israeli
entrepreneur, is developing a system that it hopes will be
easier to adopt. It proposes that only high-volume mailers
pay postage at first, at a rate of a penny a message, with
the money going to the e-mail recipient's Internet access
provider. (The company suggests, but does not require, that
the Internet providers share the payments with their users,
either through rebates or by lowering monthly fees.)

The Goodmail system is designed to work even if not all
senders and not all Internet providers participate. A mass
e-mailer would sign up with Goodmail, buying a block of
stamps - actually an encrypted code number - that it would
insert in the header of each e-mail message. If the
Internet provider of the recipient participates in the
system, it decrypts the stamp and submits it to Goodmail.
Only then is the sender's account charged a penny and the
receiving I.S.P. paid the penny, minus a service fee by
Goodmail for acting as a clearinghouse.

Senders do not pay for stamps that are not used, but they
do pay whether an e-mail recipient reads the message or
not.

Under this plan, Internet providers would still accept
incoming e-mail without stamps. But that mail would be
subject to the same sort of spam filters in use now, which
can at times divert legitimate mail. The Internet providers
would deliver all stamped mail without any filter. Goodmail
does not require that stamped mail be requested by the
recipient, the so-called opt-in requirement of most other
anti-spam systems.

"The very notion that I have to get permission to send you
a marketing message doesn't make sense and is not good
public policy," said Richard Gingras, Goodmail's chief
executive. Even so, he said that Goodmail would require
mailers to verify their identities and to take people off
their mailing lists if such a request was made.

This kind of approach would require major policy changes by
Internet providers, which all ban unsolicited e-mail even
if they have little ability to block it.

In fact, some experts worry that big spammers will indeed
pay the postage. Charles Stiles, manager of the postmaster
department at America Online, said he was concerned that
such a system might restrict the wrong mail, adding, "It is
the spammers who are the ones with the big pockets."

AOL is taking a different approach and is testing a system
under development by the Internet Research Task Force. The
system, called the Sender Permitted From, or S.P.F.,
creates a way for the owner of an Internet domain, like
aol.com, to specify which computers are authorized to send
e-mail with aol.com return addresses. That allows a
recipient's e-mail system to determine whether a message
being represented as coming from someone at aol.com really
is from that address. Most spam being sent now uses forged
return addresses.

Microsoft has been floating a similar proposal, labeled
"caller ID," that could be expanded in the future to
accommodate more sophisticated anti-spam approaches
including Internet postage systems. Discussions are under
way among the backers of S.P.F., Microsoft and others
involved in e-mail to reach a compromise sender
notification system.

All these proposals can run into problems because there are
legitimate cases when mail sent by one domain claims to be
from another. For example, online greeting-card services
will send messages with the return address of the person
sending the card, even though the message does not go
through the sender's e-mail account.

People taking part in the discussion say that companies
like greeting-card services may need to change their e-mail
software to comply with the new standards.

"Every proposed scheme will break parts of the way e-mail
works today," said Hans Peter Brondmo, a senior vice
president of Digital Impact who has represented big
e-mailers in the spam technology negotiations. The
challenge, he said, is to find a system that will require
as little retrofitting as possible to e-mail systems.
 
had to pay even as little as a penny for each message
...could destroy businesses that send a million offers
Baphomet
Actually, as little as 0.001 penny.

I have a better idea:
Make it a capital offense to respond to spam.
Once we weed out the idiots whose pricks are too small,
profit goes to zero and spammers go into the red.
 
"JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> wrote in message
news:f8b945bc.0402021420.6e6b8f73@posting.google.com...
had to pay even as little as a penny for each message
...could destroy businesses that send a million offers
Baphomet

Actually, as little as 0.001 penny.

I have a better idea:
Make it a capital offense to respond to spam.
Darwinism is a little appreciated tool.

Once we weed out the idiots whose pricks are too small,
profit goes to zero and spammers go into the red.
Ken
 
In article <101sam9o3veia3c@corp.supernews.com>, Baphomet wrote:
N.Y. Times

February 2, 2004
By SAUL HANSELL

Should people have to buy electronic stamps to send e-mail?
I would agree with this condition:

Postage all goes to the recipient. Let nobody have a profit motive to
demand, request, or encourage e-mail postage rates more than a penny or a
fraction of a penny per e-mail.

E-mail postage should be regulated by Federal or international law or
some worldwide agency that regulates ISPs or has the ability to get most
ISPs to agree on this.

Also, business correspondence between ISPs and their customers should
not require postage.

I think a penny should be more than enough to cause financial losses to
scammers who claim that some millionaire died in a car crash or a plane
crash or got murdered in some African nation. And I think those e-mailing
me *daily* trying to sell me medications and pills and potions to enlarge
body parts will be slowed down by the prospects of paying $3.65 per year
to everyone they send junk e-mail to!
If I keep getting 40-50 spams a day and got paid 1 cent for each one,
that's $146-$183 per year. If millions of Americans get that kind of
income, I'm sure the IRS would want to know about it - would ISPs
delivering e-mail with postage then need to mail a 1099 to their customers
every year? How about if the IRS invents the 1099-e, which gets e-mailed
(with free postage)?

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
 
"JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> wrote in message
news:f8b945bc.0402021420.6e6b8f73@posting.google.com...
had to pay even as little as a penny for each message
...could destroy businesses that send a million offers
Baphomet

Actually, as little as 0.001 penny.
"biznesses" that send out a million emails and expect only 10 replies
are *annoying* almost a million other people. They _should_ be
destroyed!

I have a better idea:
Make it a capital offense to respond to spam.
Once we weed out the idiots whose pricks are too small,
profit goes to zero and spammers go into the red.
Doesn't work 100%. Spammers sell their spamming services to gullible
biznesses, who would dyill be suckered into paying for the services
whether or not the services worked. So some spamming will still occur.

Better to shoot the spammers!
 
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:26:47 +0000 (UTC), don@manx.misty.com (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

[snip]
E-mail postage should be regulated by Federal or international law or
some worldwide agency that regulates ISPs or has the ability to get most
ISPs to agree on this.
[snip]
- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
That is the main problem... there is NO regulatory body, nor do ISP's
cooperate. I think there are more rogue ISP's than ones with any
enforced terms of service standards.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
As long as its possible to hack the system, it will be hacked. My concern is
that with our present (unsecure) system the hackers will still get their mail
out, and it will be up to everyone else (the owners of the hijacked mail
servers) to pay the postage. Fix the security problems first to eliminate this
vulnerability, then lots of the spam will go away.
Brad
PC Logic

Schematic entry and PCB design software
http://www.pclogic.biz
http://members.aol.com/atpclogic/index.html
 
Don Klipstein wrote:

In article <101sam9o3veia3c@corp.supernews.com>, Baphomet wrote:

N.Y. Times

February 2, 2004
By SAUL HANSELL

Should people have to buy electronic stamps to send e-mail?


I would agree with this condition:
Email postage has its merits. But one has to look at it from the
perspective of the *free* newsletters that many of us subscribe to.
Free email has kept them free, but if email is no longer free, they will
likely become extinct or have to be subsidized, either by the recipients
or by some agency. My guess is that most will become extinct.

Right now, I'd like to see the Penny Black system instituted.

Forget the IRS!


Postage all goes to the recipient. Let nobody have a profit motive to
demand, request, or encourage e-mail postage rates more than a penny or a
fraction of a penny per e-mail.

E-mail postage should be regulated by Federal or international law or
some worldwide agency that regulates ISPs or has the ability to get most
ISPs to agree on this.

Also, business correspondence between ISPs and their customers should
not require postage.

I think a penny should be more than enough to cause financial losses to
scammers who claim that some millionaire died in a car crash or a plane
crash or got murdered in some African nation. And I think those e-mailing
me *daily* trying to sell me medications and pills and potions to enlarge
body parts will be slowed down by the prospects of paying $3.65 per year
to everyone they send junk e-mail to!
If I keep getting 40-50 spams a day and got paid 1 cent for each one,
that's $146-$183 per year. If millions of Americans get that kind of
income, I'm sure the IRS would want to know about it - would ISPs
delivering e-mail with postage then need to mail a 1099 to their customers
every year? How about if the IRS invents the 1099-e, which gets e-mailed
(with free postage)?

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
 
Baphomet wrote:
(snip)

Yeah, I heard about Micro$oft's idea several days ago. It's idiocy.

The problem starts at the spammer, so put the screws to the spammer, not
to Joe Citizen. It's easy enough to identify where spam originates. Go
after those boiler rooms.


IMHO, all ISP's should implement mail rejection systems modeled after
AT&T WorldNet's: recipients define what addresses they _do_ want to
recieve email from. Mail from all other addys gets rejected. Works for
me.
 
Don Klipstein wrote:
(snip)
E-mail postage should be regulated by Federal or international law or
some worldwide agency that regulates ISPs or has the ability to get most
ISPs to agree on this.

Oh great! Get govt. involved. NOT! Here in the US the Postal Service,
a govt. agency, is already hurting from loss of revenue, due to email.
Put the govt. - especially USPS - in charge of email fees? Conflict of
interest.
 
Jim Thompson wrote:

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:26:47 +0000 (UTC), don@manx.misty.com (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

[snip]

E-mail postage should be regulated by Federal or international law or
some worldwide agency that regulates ISPs or has the ability to get most
ISPs to agree on this.

[snip]

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)


That is the main problem... there is NO regulatory body, nor do ISP's
cooperate. I think there are more rogue ISP's than ones with any
enforced terms of service standards.
Well, agreeing to blackhole an ISP has been kind of a de facto
regulatory body. MAPS.

> ...Jim Thompson
 
Michael wrote:

Don Klipstein wrote:
(snip)

E-mail postage should be regulated by Federal or international law or
some worldwide agency that regulates ISPs or has the ability to get most
ISPs to agree on this.



Oh great! Get govt. involved. NOT! Here in the US the Postal Service,
a govt. agency, is already hurting from loss of revenue, due to email.
The USPS's losses are not from competition, but from the inability to
compete, because of gov't mandated regulations.

Put the govt. - especially USPS - in charge of email fees? Conflict of
interest.
 
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 08:13:31 -0800, "Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the
Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote:

Michael wrote:

Don Klipstein wrote:
(snip)

E-mail postage should be regulated by Federal or international law or
some worldwide agency that regulates ISPs or has the ability to get most
ISPs to agree on this.



Oh great! Get govt. involved. NOT! Here in the US the Postal Service,
a govt. agency, is already hurting from loss of revenue, due to email.

The USPS's losses are not from competition, but from the inability to
compete, because of gov't mandated regulations.

Put the govt. - especially USPS - in charge of email fees? Conflict of
interest.
Give USPS to FedEx... they'd cure the problem ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 08:10:34 -0800, "Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the
Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:26:47 +0000 (UTC), don@manx.misty.com (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

[snip]

E-mail postage should be regulated by Federal or international law or
some worldwide agency that regulates ISPs or has the ability to get most
ISPs to agree on this.

[snip]

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)


That is the main problem... there is NO regulatory body, nor do ISP's
cooperate. I think there are more rogue ISP's than ones with any
enforced terms of service standards.

Well, agreeing to blackhole an ISP has been kind of a de facto
regulatory body. MAPS.

...Jim Thompson
I'm a SpamCop participant, but it seems to never get better.
Blackhole one ISP and another pops up :-(

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
"Michael" <NoSpam@att.net> wrote in message
news:40210318.A4E5899B@att.net...
Baphomet wrote:
(snip)

Yeah, I heard about Micro$oft's idea several days ago. It's idiocy.

The problem starts at the spammer, so put the screws to the spammer, not
to Joe Citizen. It's easy enough to identify where spam originates. Go
after those boiler rooms.
Michael -

As I understand it, it's not that easy to trace Spam; several recent worms
are thought to hijack Joe Average's computer and send out Spam from these
very decentralized locations. Of course, if users would update their viral
signatures, this couldn't happen.

IMHO, all ISP's should implement mail rejection systems modeled after
AT&T WorldNet's: recipients define what addresses they _do_ want to
recieve email from. Mail from all other addys gets rejected. Works for
me.
Most computer anti-spam systems do contain a "whitelist" feature. I haven't
used it yet though because:

a) I'm lazy

b) I don't want to miss potential new clients
 
Wired News - 6 Feb. '04

The entertainment industry manages to locate movie pirates, even overseas.
The government supposedly tracks terrorists' conversations over the
Internet. The IRS will find you if it wants to. So why the heck can't we
track down spammers?

Most spam experts say we don't have to -- not directly. The experts don't
agree on how spamming might end, but most say the answer isn't in
sophisticated tracking technology. It's in what's dear to the hearts of
spammers and the people who hate them: money.

Since it's about capital, most agree this isn't a job for Joe the Vigilante,
slowing individual spammers with a barrage of high-tech attacks. It takes
big money to clear out the world's inbox: money fronted by government
agencies, ISPs and creditors; money paid to lawyers and bounty hunters; and
money taken from companies hawking products pushed by spammers.
"Spammers are using very sophisticated methods -- hijacking people's open
proxies, using open relays, zombies," said Anne Mitchell, president of the
Institute for Spam and Internet Public Policy. "It's very difficult to find
the sender, but if you have enough resources, financial and person power,
and the understanding to delve into, analyze it -- it's not impossible."

Mitchell is an advocate of the new Can-Spam Act. She's particularly fond of
Section 6, which she helped write. Bypassing issues like zombie computers
and elusive spammers for hire, Section 6 targets the company whose product
is being sold, not the spammer.

"The vast majority of spam has a U.S. connection: the vendor. So you don't
have to go to Romania to find the spammer," Mitchell said. "It's easier to
find the vendors. When they are on the hook legally, they are all too happy
to point the finger at the spammer."

Paul Graham, the man who introduced the Bayesian filter to spam fighting,
agreed. "You can't catch the spammer in real time anymore; it's being sent
by some robot he established earlier, and he's long gone," Graham said. "Go
after the money. The fear of being attacked legally will make advertisers
cough up the spammer."

Graham also said the ball is in the court of the credit card companies.

"All spammers selling something are processing the transactions through
credit cards. Put pressure on Visa to cancel the transaction and spammers
would be stopped cold," Graham said. "So what if it's a Taiwanese Internet
pharmacy? Reach them though their Visa merchant account."

Michael Goodman, staff attorney for the Federal Trade Commission, says that
going after the advertiser is a route the FTC will take with the Can-Spam
Act. But he says there are other sections of the law enabling the FTC to
prosecute vendors in addition to locating and taking criminal action against
spammers.

More importantly, Goodman says, spam fighting finally ranks in the eyes of
federal budget planners.

"It's one of the highest priorities of the Bureau of Consumer Protection,"
said Goodman. "The top three are spam, fraud in general and the new privacy
FACTA law."

Some say killing spam is a job for Internet service providers as much as it
is for the government, if not more so.

"If someone broke into the phone system and rang everybody's phone off the
hook, you'd say it's a problem for the phone company," said Barry Shein,
president of ISP The World.

"You are annoyed, but their equipment is being usurped. You would accept
that. With the Internet, individuals don't like it because they feel they
are the victims," Shein added. "But (an ISP) can show hundreds of thousands
of violations and put $10,000 on the table to hire a lawyer.

"What's going to get spammers in the end is hurting the people with the
pocketbooks."
 
Baphomet wrote:
Wired News - 6 Feb. '04

The entertainment industry manages to locate movie pirates, even overseas.
The government supposedly tracks terrorists' conversations over the
Internet. The IRS will find you if it wants to. So why the heck can't we
track down spammers?
-----------------------
None of that is needed.

Simply erect a universal NetShitList of all spamming ISPs, and they
get disconnected from the Net until they clean house, and their users
will shit on them if they don't.

Any ISP that emits spam goes on the list and can't get off the list
till ALL their upstream and downstreamers connected to them agree that
they have:

Sued and/or turned in their spammer for fraud and turn them in, AND
blocked the emission of all such similar SPAM by prior filtering of
their outgoing mailstream for that SpAmmer's signature output.

Any ISP who refuses to turn them off goes on the list THEMSELVES!

All ISPs MUST publish their upstream and downstream sources to their
upstream and downstream ISPs so they can disconnect them immediately
and bypass them if they start shitting SPAM!

All the End of SPAM requires is an approved RFC to this effect!!

If ISPs won't agree to it, make a law against them offering ISP
services or profiting on the Internet and prosecute it just like
organized crime and racketeering!

Even if an ISP can't tell where it's coming from, they can block
that emission from their site, cancel the user responsible, and
notify the rest of us so we can track them down.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public



Most spam experts say we don't have to -- not directly. The experts don't
agree on how spamming might end, but most say the answer isn't in
sophisticated tracking technology. It's in what's dear to the hearts of
spammers and the people who hate them: money.

Since it's about capital, most agree this isn't a job for Joe the Vigilante,
slowing individual spammers with a barrage of high-tech attacks. It takes
big money to clear out the world's inbox: money fronted by government
agencies, ISPs and creditors; money paid to lawyers and bounty hunters; and
money taken from companies hawking products pushed by spammers.
"Spammers are using very sophisticated methods -- hijacking people's open
proxies, using open relays, zombies," said Anne Mitchell, president of the
Institute for Spam and Internet Public Policy. "It's very difficult to find
the sender, but if you have enough resources, financial and person power,
and the understanding to delve into, analyze it -- it's not impossible."

Mitchell is an advocate of the new Can-Spam Act. She's particularly fond of
Section 6, which she helped write. Bypassing issues like zombie computers
and elusive spammers for hire, Section 6 targets the company whose product
is being sold, not the spammer.

"The vast majority of spam has a U.S. connection: the vendor. So you don't
have to go to Romania to find the spammer," Mitchell said. "It's easier to
find the vendors. When they are on the hook legally, they are all too happy
to point the finger at the spammer."

Paul Graham, the man who introduced the Bayesian filter to spam fighting,
agreed. "You can't catch the spammer in real time anymore; it's being sent
by some robot he established earlier, and he's long gone," Graham said. "Go
after the money. The fear of being attacked legally will make advertisers
cough up the spammer."

Graham also said the ball is in the court of the credit card companies.

"All spammers selling something are processing the transactions through
credit cards. Put pressure on Visa to cancel the transaction and spammers
would be stopped cold," Graham said. "So what if it's a Taiwanese Internet
pharmacy? Reach them though their Visa merchant account."

Michael Goodman, staff attorney for the Federal Trade Commission, says that
going after the advertiser is a route the FTC will take with the Can-Spam
Act. But he says there are other sections of the law enabling the FTC to
prosecute vendors in addition to locating and taking criminal action against
spammers.

More importantly, Goodman says, spam fighting finally ranks in the eyes of
federal budget planners.

"It's one of the highest priorities of the Bureau of Consumer Protection,"
said Goodman. "The top three are spam, fraud in general and the new privacy
FACTA law."

Some say killing spam is a job for Internet service providers as much as it
is for the government, if not more so.

"If someone broke into the phone system and rang everybody's phone off the
hook, you'd say it's a problem for the phone company," said Barry Shein,
president of ISP The World.

"You are annoyed, but their equipment is being usurped. You would accept
that. With the Internet, individuals don't like it because they feel they
are the victims," Shein added. "But (an ISP) can show hundreds of thousands
of violations and put $10,000 on the table to hire a lawyer.

"What's going to get spammers in the end is hurting the people with the
pocketbooks."
 
Jim Thompson wrote:
Give USPS to FedEx... they'd cure the problem ;-)
They would just drop it, and break it!

--
We now return you to our normally scheduled programming.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:58:26 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:


Give USPS to FedEx... they'd cure the problem ;-)

They would just drop it, and break it!
FedEx?? I've *never* had FedEx damage a shipment. UPS runs at 50%.
USPS, only ship what you want to lose.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 

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