Duracell 1432 Flashlight: Battery Drain.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 21 May 2019 02:01:46 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 21 May 2019 02:57:08 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 20 May 2019 15:18:29 -0700 (PDT), dmatthew.carter@gmail.com
wrote:

I purchased a 3 pack of the model 350 at Costco. Everyone one of
them has this issue. 3 months is about right. Put new batteries
in all of them and a few months later they all are virtually
drained of battery life.
Matt C

...
cork instead of a wine bottle cork. However, I haven't seen anything
for doing it with 4 alkaline cells. That's probably a waste of time,
so I suggest you recycle the flashlight and buy something that runs on
a LiIon cell and not on alkaline cells.

or use NiMH
NT

Yep, that will work better than alkaline. 800ma-hr for NiMH instead
of 750ma-hr for alkaline. The actual difference will be larger
because NiMH tolerates high current loads better than alkaline.

I'm partial to LSD (low self discharge) NiMH cells. About $2.50/cell
from China:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/400827732093>
or $4.00/cell from USA vendor:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/153458804452>
Four cells per flashlight would cost $10 to $16 per flashlight. For
that price, I could buy an equivalent LiIon flashlight, and still have
some money left over for a crude LiIon charger. Most of these:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/LiIon%20Flashlights.jpg>
were $5 to $10/ea plus charger.

I forgot to mumble something about the leakage current. Because the
on-off switch is usually in series with the battery, the "off" leakage
current should be zero. Yet, the Duracell Durabeam Ultra 350
flashlights seem to be leaking some current. Therefore, my guess(tm)
is that the flashlight is wired in a somewhat different manner. Since
the purpose of this flashlight is to sell more AAA batteries, I
wouldn't put it past Duracell to put something across the switch or
use a different wiring configuration to produce some leakage current.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Mike]

On 5/20/2019 3:18 PM, dmatthew.carter@gmail.com wrote:

I purchased a 3 pack of the model 350 at Costco. Everyone one of them has this issue. 3 months is about right. Put new batteries in all of them and a few months later they all are virtually drained of battery life.

Matt C

This is a common problem with the electronic switching.

google flashlight parasitic drain

A flashlight that's dead when you need it is worthless.
Take 'em back to Costco.

Newer flashlights advertise "no parasitic drain".
Get one that explicitly states that. Anything else is a crap shoot.

 

[whit3rd]

On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 11:46:35 AM UTC-7, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, 27 May 2017 19:14:03 UTC+1, olds...@tubes.com wrote:

However, "Dollar Tree" has a 4 pack of AAA batts for $1, so that only
costs 75 cents for replacement batteries....

use rechargeables.

Only viable if you have a charger that takes three cells (or charges one-at-a-time).
Many chargers only charge pairs. Usually (squint at the fine print)
'1.5V' means it'll work on onesies, twosies, threesies, foursies.
"2.8V' on my Energizer charger means it only works on two or four.

 

On Tuesday, 21 May 2019 10:36:56 UTC+1, Look165 wrote:

tabbypurr a Êcrit le 21/05/2019 à 11:01 :
On Tuesday, 21 May 2019 02:57:08 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 20 May 2019 15:18:29 -0700 (PDT), dmatthew.carter@gmail.com
wrote:

I purchased a 3 pack of the model 350 at Costco. Everyone one of
them has this issue. 3 months is about right. Put new batteries
in all of them and a few months later they all are virtually
drained of battery life.
Matt C
...
cork instead of a wine bottle cork. However, I haven't seen anything
for doing it with 4 alkaline cells. That's probably a waste of time,
so I suggest you recycle the flashlight and buy something that runs on
a LiIon cell and not on alkaline cells.

or use NiMH


NT

I think NiMH is 1.2V while cells are 1.5V.

Alkaline start at 1.55v ad are totally flat at about 0.8v. NiMH stay at about 1.2v for most of their discharge.


NT

 

On Tuesday, 21 May 2019 17:29:22 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Tue, 21 May 2019 02:01:46 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 May 2019 02:57:08 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 20 May 2019 15:18:29 -0700 (PDT), dmatthew.carter@gmail.com
wrote:

I purchased a 3 pack of the model 350 at Costco. Everyone one of
them has this issue. 3 months is about right. Put new batteries
in all of them and a few months later they all are virtually
drained of battery life.
Matt C

...
cork instead of a wine bottle cork. However, I haven't seen anything
for doing it with 4 alkaline cells. That's probably a waste of time,
so I suggest you recycle the flashlight and buy something that runs on
a LiIon cell and not on alkaline cells.

or use NiMH
NT

Yep, that will work better than alkaline. 800ma-hr for NiMH instead
of 750ma-hr for alkaline. The actual difference will be larger
because NiMH tolerates high current loads better than alkaline.

I'm partial to LSD (low self discharge) NiMH cells. About $2.50/cell
from China:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/400827732093
or $4.00/cell from USA vendor:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/153458804452
Four cells per flashlight would cost $10 to $16 per flashlight. For
that price, I could buy an equivalent LiIon flashlight, and still have
some money left over for a crude LiIon charger. Most of these:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/LiIon%20Flashlights.jpg
were $5 to $10/ea plus charger.

So the choice of $2.50/ cells was not a good one. Try 50 cent cells.

I forgot to mumble something about the leakage current. Because the
on-off switch is usually in series with the battery, the "off" leakage
current should be zero. Yet, the Duracell Durabeam Ultra 350
flashlights seem to be leaking some current. Therefore, my guess(tm)
is that the flashlight is wired in a somewhat different manner. Since
the purpose of this flashlight is to sell more AAA batteries, I
wouldn't put it past Duracell to put something across the switch or
use a different wiring configuration to produce some leakage current.

that may be a reason to go new.


NT

 

On Wednesday, 22 May 2019 07:48:10 UTC+1, whit3rd wrote:

On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 11:46:35 AM UTC-7, tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 27 May 2017 19:14:03 UTC+1, olds...@tubes.com wrote:

However, "Dollar Tree" has a 4 pack of AAA batts for $1, so that only
costs 75 cents for replacement batteries....

use rechargeables.

Only viable if you have a charger that takes three cells (or charges one-at-a-time).
Many chargers only charge pairs. Usually (squint at the fine print)
'1.5V' means it'll work on onesies, twosies, threesies, foursies.
"2.8V' on my Energizer charger means it only works on two or four.

I assumed we'd all be able to charge 3 cells. Maybe not so.


NT

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 22 May 2019 04:52:09 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

>So the choice of $2.50/ cells was not a good one. Try 50 cent cells.

The cheap NiMH cells have a high self-discharge rate. They are quite
suitable for some applications, such as devices that are left almost
permanently in a charger, such as home cordless phones, some power
tools, but area a giant pain for devices that are left off for long
periods of time, such as flashlights, cameras, test equipment, etc.
Before LSD NiMH cells, I still recall practicing my profanity when I
had to charge a device before I used it. No thanks.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93metal_hydride_battery#Self-discharge>
The self-discharge is 5-20% on the first day and stabilizes
around 0.5-4% per day at room temperature. But at 45 °C it
is approximately three times as high.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

On Wednesday, 22 May 2019 15:45:05 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Wed, 22 May 2019 04:52:09 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

So the choice of $2.50/ cells was not a good one. Try 50 cent cells.

The cheap NiMH cells have a high self-discharge rate. They are quite
suitable for some applications, such as devices that are left almost
permanently in a charger, such as home cordless phones, some power
tools, but area a giant pain for devices that are left off for long
periods of time, such as flashlights, cameras, test equipment, etc.
Before LSD NiMH cells, I still recall practicing my profanity when I
had to charge a device before I used it. No thanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93metal_hydride_battery#Self-discharge
The self-discharge is 5-20% on the first day and stabilizes
around 0.5-4% per day at room temperature. But at 45 °C it
is approximately three times as high.

I've heard that said a lot, but it doesn't match my experience. Fusiomax have usually still had lots of charge in them months later. I have a drawer of various NiCd & NiMH, random ones I wouldn't have as much confidence in. IIRC you can get cheaper deals from China than the fusios.

In the 90s I used a gas powered torch. No battery torch comes anywhere near it in reliability terms.


NT

 

[Mike]

On 5/22/2019 4:52 AM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 21 May 2019 17:29:22 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 02:01:46 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 May 2019 02:57:08 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 20 May 2019 15:18:29 -0700 (PDT), dmatthew.carter@gmail.com
wrote:

I purchased a 3 pack of the model 350 at Costco. Everyone one of
them has this issue. 3 months is about right. Put new batteries
in all of them and a few months later they all are virtually
drained of battery life.
Matt C

...
cork instead of a wine bottle cork. However, I haven't seen anything
for doing it with 4 alkaline cells. That's probably a waste of time,
so I suggest you recycle the flashlight and buy something that runs on
a LiIon cell and not on alkaline cells.

or use NiMH
NT

Yep, that will work better than alkaline. 800ma-hr for NiMH instead
of 750ma-hr for alkaline. The actual difference will be larger
because NiMH tolerates high current loads better than alkaline.

I'm partial to LSD (low self discharge) NiMH cells. About $2.50/cell
from China:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/400827732093
or $4.00/cell from USA vendor:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/153458804452
Four cells per flashlight would cost $10 to $16 per flashlight. For
that price, I could buy an equivalent LiIon flashlight, and still have
some money left over for a crude LiIon charger. Most of these:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/LiIon%20Flashlights.jpg
were $5 to $10/ea plus charger.

So the choice of $2.50/ cells was not a good one. Try 50 cent cells.

I forgot to mumble something about the leakage current. Because the
on-off switch is usually in series with the battery, the "off" leakage
current should be zero. Yet, the Duracell Durabeam Ultra 350
flashlights seem to be leaking some current. Therefore, my guess(tm)
is that the flashlight is wired in a somewhat different manner. Since
the purpose of this flashlight is to sell more AAA batteries, I
wouldn't put it past Duracell to put something across the switch or
use a different wiring configuration to produce some leakage current.

that may be a reason to go new.


NT

Conspiracy theory notwithstanding...

I suggest that some designer made a bad decision to use a cheap
part to manage the flashlight modes. Some manager made an uninformed
decision to remarket the result. Everybody saved a penny, except the user.
Caught with their pants down, some vendors are now advertising flashlights
with zero parasitic drain.
It's unlikely that Duracell had any malicious intent in this.

There really is no clean fix for this. If you use your flashlight every
day, it won't affect you much. If you use it infrequently for emergencies,
you absolutely, positively want it to work when needed.
About all you can do is put an insulator somewhere in the battery
assembly and remove it when the emergency happens.

Next time, buy one that advertises zero parasitic drain.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 22 May 2019 17:52:10 -0700, Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote:

>Conspiracy theory notwithstanding...

I just hate it when someone ruins a perfectly good conspiracy theory.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained
by stupidity. Hanlon's Razor.

Standby/parasitic current drain of various flashlights (including
leakage current and estimated battery life):
<https://lygte-info.dk/info/standbyCurrent%20UK.html>

I suggest that some designer made a bad decision to use a cheap
part to manage the flashlight modes. Some manager made an uninformed
decision to remarket the result. Everybody saved a penny, except the user.
Caught with their pants down, some vendors are now advertising flashlights
with zero parasitic drain.
It's unlikely that Duracell had any malicious intent in this.

There is already a class action suit to prove otherwise:

"Duracell Class Action Says LED Flashlights Drain Batteries Quickly"
<https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-products/877506-duracell-class-action-says-led-flashlights-drain-batteries-quickly/>
<https://www.classaction.org/blog/in-the-dark-allegedly-defective-duracell-led-flashlights-drain-batteries-when-turned-off-class-action-lawsuit-claims>
<https://www.classaction.org/media/siddle-et-al-v-the-duracell-company-et-al.pdf>
(12.4MB)
The case seeks to cover a proposed nationwide class of
consumers who bought Duracell’s 250, 300 or 350 LED
flashlight models from Duracell, Costco, Home Depot or
Amazon during the to-be-defined claim period.

There really is no clean fix for this. If you use your flashlight every
day, it won't affect you much. If you use it infrequently for emergencies,
you absolutely, positively want it to work when needed.
About all you can do is put an insulator somewhere in the battery
assembly and remove it when the emergency happens.

With alkaline cells, I like to store them outside of the device in a
plastic bag. I've had too many problems with alkaline cells leaking
all over the inside of flashlights, radios, and toys.

>Next time, buy one that advertises zero parasitic drain.

Probably a good idea. I guess I've been lucky as none of mine seem to
have the problem. However, I haven't measured it, so I'm not really
sure.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Mike]

On 5/22/2019 7:26 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Wed, 22 May 2019 17:52:10 -0700, Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote:

Conspiracy theory notwithstanding...

I just hate it when someone ruins a perfectly good conspiracy theory.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained
by stupidity. Hanlon's Razor.

Standby/parasitic current drain of various flashlights (including
leakage current and estimated battery life):
https://lygte-info.dk/info/standbyCurrent%20UK.html

I suggest that some designer made a bad decision to use a cheap
part to manage the flashlight modes. Some manager made an uninformed
decision to remarket the result. Everybody saved a penny, except the user.
Caught with their pants down, some vendors are now advertising flashlights
with zero parasitic drain.
It's unlikely that Duracell had any malicious intent in this.

There is already a class action suit to prove otherwise:

"Duracell Class Action Says LED Flashlights Drain Batteries Quickly"
https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-products/877506-duracell-class-action-says-led-flashlights-drain-batteries-quickly/
https://www.classaction.org/blog/in-the-dark-allegedly-defective-duracell-led-flashlights-drain-batteries-when-turned-off-class-action-lawsuit-claims
https://www.classaction.org/media/siddle-et-al-v-the-duracell-company-et-al.pdf
(12.4MB)
The case seeks to cover a proposed nationwide class of
consumers who bought Duracell’s 250, 300 or 350 LED
flashlight models from Duracell, Costco, Home Depot or
Amazon during the to-be-defined claim period.

You can sue anybody for anything. Sometimes you even win.
BUT
I don't expect anybody at Duracell ever sat down with the evil
intent to sell defective flashlights as a means to increase battery sales.
It's much more likely that someone in purchasing decided they could
make a buck on flashlights and did zero evaluation.

I skimmed part of the attached links.

Should they be punished for not recalling them? Probably, but what
is the appropriate punishment? We all have stuff that performs
less than expected. Where do you draw the line?

I'd bet that Costco took back any presented for refund.
Don't know about the others.

The people with flashlights ain't gonna get rich, but the lawyers sure
will get rich off this lawsuit.

I have several of these that I bought at garage sales. Didn't take long
to discover why they were almost free. I probably won't be able to make
a claim without a receipt. Stick a piece of plastic between the battery
pack and the spring.
They'll be fine when needed in an emergency.
Another strategy is to leave batteries in the flashlight, wait for
them to leak, get reimbursed for leaky batteries.

If I were to sue Duracell, it would be over leaky batteries that ruin
the devices they power. I'd get behind serious punishment for that.
Although I've had them replace seriously damaged devices on demand.

It's all about the Benjamins. If replacement cost is less than the
additional profit, that's what controls the decision. In this case,
they pissed off the wrong ambulance chasers. ;-)

There really is no clean fix for this. If you use your flashlight every
day, it won't affect you much. If you use it infrequently for emergencies,
you absolutely, positively want it to work when needed.
About all you can do is put an insulator somewhere in the battery
assembly and remove it when the emergency happens.

With alkaline cells, I like to store them outside of the device in a
plastic bag. I've had too many problems with alkaline cells leaking
all over the inside of flashlights, radios, and toys.

Next time, buy one that advertises zero parasitic drain.

Probably a good idea. I guess I've been lucky as none of mine seem to
have the problem. However, I haven't measured it, so I'm not really
sure.

 

On Thursday, 23 May 2019 09:33:33 UTC+1, Mike wrote:

On 5/22/2019 7:26 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 22 May 2019 17:52:10 -0700, Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote:

Conspiracy theory notwithstanding...

I just hate it when someone ruins a perfectly good conspiracy theory.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained
by stupidity. Hanlon's Razor.

Standby/parasitic current drain of various flashlights (including
leakage current and estimated battery life):
https://lygte-info.dk/info/standbyCurrent%20UK.html

I suggest that some designer made a bad decision to use a cheap
part to manage the flashlight modes. Some manager made an uninformed
decision to remarket the result. Everybody saved a penny, except the user.
Caught with their pants down, some vendors are now advertising flashlights
with zero parasitic drain.
It's unlikely that Duracell had any malicious intent in this.

There is already a class action suit to prove otherwise:

"Duracell Class Action Says LED Flashlights Drain Batteries Quickly"
https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-products/877506-duracell-class-action-says-led-flashlights-drain-batteries-quickly/
https://www.classaction.org/blog/in-the-dark-allegedly-defective-duracell-led-flashlights-drain-batteries-when-turned-off-class-action-lawsuit-claims
https://www.classaction.org/media/siddle-et-al-v-the-duracell-company-et-al.pdf
(12.4MB)
The case seeks to cover a proposed nationwide class of
consumers who bought Duracell’s 250, 300 or 350 LED
flashlight models from Duracell, Costco, Home Depot or
Amazon during the to-be-defined claim period.

You can sue anybody for anything. Sometimes you even win.
BUT
I don't expect anybody at Duracell ever sat down with the evil
intent to sell defective flashlights as a means to increase battery sales..

Usually companies are busy looking for the next wheeze, the next way to sell more product. And we surely know that a lot of these ideas are knowingly not in the consumer's interest.

It's much more likely that someone in purchasing decided they could
make a buck on flashlights and did zero evaluation.

a company that size with a large reputation doing zero evaluation? Not credible

I skimmed part of the attached links.

Should they be punished for not recalling them? Probably, but what
is the appropriate punishment? We all have stuff that performs
less than expected. Where do you draw the line?

afaik parasitic drain is not a crime. I don't know any law that prohibits it.

If I were to sue Duracell, it would be over leaky batteries that ruin
the devices they power. I'd get behind serious punishment for that.
Although I've had them replace seriously damaged devices on demand.

Batteries leak, it's inherent in the design. If you force companies to pay out then the price of batteries goes up. Effectively you force everyone to buy an insurance policy. Why aren't you blaming the product mfrs for not using gold plated contacts that wont' corrode & easy wipe battery holders?


NT