Driver to drive?

[Jasen Betts]

On 2013-12-27, No News <news@nulstep.plus.com> wrote:

About a week ago Don Kuenz asked a question about relays.

Does anyone in here consider a relay to be an active device?
A 1-liner on why, or why not, would probably be interesting.
More if you feel like it!

yes, above unity power gain implies acive.

--
For a good time: install ntp

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On Saturday, December 28, 2013 10:02:21 AM UTC-5, Joe Gwinn wrote:

NFPA certainly cares about fires, and we continue to have electrical

fires.

Geez, really? The installed wiring base spans at least 90 years so, unless there is a requirement for retrofit, don't expect an abrupt decrease in frequency.

 

On Friday, December 27, 2013 5:01:23 AM UTC-5, Greegor wrote:

Surfing away from news stories about the

30MHz to 300 MHz switching power supplies

the first time I ran across a story that

the United Nations wants to standardize

wall warts across many different brands

of similar equipment to make replacement

and recycling easier and to cut back on

e-waste.



Supposedly it's been warmly received by

cell phone makers so far.



But weren't these wall warts already on

the way to being standardized because

of the option of using USB port power?



Then I remembered that lots of these wall

warts are inferior quality fire hazards.



Do you think the UN will get into

regulating the QUALITY of wall warts

to cut down on e-waste? LOL



Is the UN trying to become a government

itself or a government regulator?



Do you think they'll standardize computer

printer ink jet and laser toner refills?



I'd actually like to see them end the

refill scams with "chipped" cartridges

and support refilling.

That would also cut down e-waste.



But why the United Nations?



Aren't there already international

organizations to standardize things

like that?

Commielib UN they shuld all be shot! Dont use Libtard power supplys unless yu are a Libtard and f you ar a Librtard you are everything wrong with American #1 and shoud die!

All Liberals Need To Die!
Duke Stopcock

 

[Joe Gwinn]

In article <259c5734-77fb-41d8-94fc-43b539887120@googlegroups.com>,
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 27, 2013 4:43:43 PM UTC-5, Joe Gwinn wrote:

Let me say it another way. A lot of experience with accidents went
into the development of the NEC over the years. The NEC is written in
blood.


NEC is authored by NFPA, founded a little over a hundred years ago. It's
fundamentally a fire prevention code. Accident prevention is achieved by
grounding and that's about it.

NFPA certainly cares about fires, and we continue to have electrical
fires.

Grounding is certainly important, but there is far more to it than
that. No single method is complete, so one uses multiple methods in
parallel, so all methods must simultaneously fail for there to be a
problem.

Joe Gwinn

 

[Peter]

Guys, is it physically possible to transfer energy with just
capacitors for isolation?

I know you can send data that way (because it can be encoded with just
edges, and providing there isn't too much common mode noise, the edges
can be decoded) but I can't see any way to transfer *power* that way.

Inductive components are needed if you want isolation - as in most
consumer appliances.

LED lamps don't need isolation and there is a huge amount of work
being done in that area.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 28 Dec 2013 15:41:39 +0000) it happened Peter
<nospam@nospam9876.com> wrote in <52bef176$0$1157$5b6aafb4@news.zen.co.uk>:

Guys, is it physically possible to transfer energy with just
capacitors for isolation?

Theoretically yes, if your switches have a high enough isolation voltage,
you can switch a cap against the input, disconnect it,
and the switch against the output.

I know you can send data that way (because it can be encoded with just
edges, and providing there isn't too much common mode noise, the edges
can be decoded) but I can't see any way to transfer *power* that way.

Using a very high frequency and very low value capacitors,
where main voltage sees a high impedance, and the RF a low impedance, maybe.
But that high frequency RF can be dangerous too,
Something like this;
1nF
A ------ ||---- |>|------ +
| |
-- mains --- RF oscillator L C load
30 MHz | |
B --------||-------------- -
1nF

The 50 or 60 Hz mains will not make it much through the 1 nF,
the power from the RF oscillator will.

But getting zapped by a few watt RF will burn your skin.. touch the output here.
If you make sure point B is main ground maybe not so much, but mains ground will be a high impedance at RF too.

But I think you can make a simple PCB transformer on dual layer at that frequency,
no need for the caps.

But efficiency?

Inductive components are needed if you want isolation - as in most
consumer appliances.

LED lamps don't need isolation and there is a huge amount of work
being done in that area.

They have modulated LED lights so it sends ethernet packets that you can receive with a photo diode.
Should be OK for UDP streaming messages, dunno about the return path.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 18:05:15 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
<garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

I construct electronics circuits in the same manner that I write
software. Start with a simple circuit. Debug the circuit, add a wrinkle,
and then rinse and repeat until a full blown solution emerges.

For my purposes, the simplest electromechanical relay circuit uses a
push button switch to energize the coil and close the contacts. It seems
intuitively wrong to simply connect 24VDC to the coil. It seems that one
needs to insert at least a resistor in series to keep the coil from
burning up. Apparently a diode across the coil helps attenuate voltage
spikes.

So, is that the simplest circuit? A resistor in series with the coil and
a diode across the coil?

You might think that a simple Internet search ought to provide the
answer. It turns out that my question's too elementary or something.

Matter of fact, Internet searches provide less useful information with
each passing day. Search engines routinely ignore the very keywords
included in a query to winnow the results down. Search engines tend to
return the same useless information (sans keyword) repackaged by
websites that want to play the oracle and become everybody's universal
"go to" page it seems.

The simpler the question, the longer the tread.

 

[John Fields]

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 08:27:50 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:


>The simpler the question, the longer the tread.

---
The larger the tire, the longer the tread.

JF

 

[Tim Williams]

"Peter" <nospam@nospam9876.com> wrote in message
news:52bef176$0$1157$5b6aafb4@news.zen.co.uk...

Guys, is it physically possible to transfer energy with just
capacitors for isolation?

Signals anyway,
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/iso103.pdf

Nothing wrong with it for power, but the capacitances will be small to
ensure galvanic isolation (~nF), suggesting very high frequencies or
inductive reactances to cancel it. The inductive case looks like coupled
resonators, which might be achieved accidentally by proximity of the coils
(in which case you have "wireless energy", which is a slowly rising fad
these days). At that point, isolation distance is only a matter of having
sufficiently high Q factors (and closely matched resonators).

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs
Electrical Engineering Consultation
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com

 

[Reinhard Zwirner]

John S schrieb:

[...]

Lawyers and judges are in place to apply the law. Police are there to
enforce the law. Even an honest policeman can err. Again, policemen
receive training in the law, but not to the degree that lawyers and
judges receive. They, like you, are only human and, like you, can
make mistakes.

When I make a mistake (e. g. speeding) and get caught, I'll have to
pay a fine as punishment.

When a policeman makes a mistake and his mistake can be proven, then
he ought to get punishment, too. As to punishing mistakes there
should be no difference between civilians and police.

Best regards

Reinhard

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 20:02:02 +0100, Reinhard Zwirner
<reinhard.zwirner@t-online.de> wrote:

John S schrieb:

[...]
Lawyers and judges are in place to apply the law. Police are there to
enforce the law. Even an honest policeman can err. Again, policemen
receive training in the law, but not to the degree that lawyers and
judges receive. They, like you, are only human and, like you, can
make mistakes.

When I make a mistake (e. g. speeding) and get caught, I'll have to
pay a fine as punishment.

When a policeman makes a mistake and his mistake can be proven, then
he ought to get punishment, too. As to punishing mistakes there
should be no difference between civilians and police.

Best regards

Reinhard

There isn't any difference here. Have you not heard of the recent
charging of undercover cops in NY for criminal misbehavior? However I
think your problem is that you confuse criminal negligence versus
civil torts. Study up. You're beginning to sound like a fascist from
Germany >:-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[RosemontCrest]

On 12/28/2013 1:24 PM, josephkk wrote:

On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:28:23 -0800, RosemontCrest
rosemontcrest.deletethis@yahoo.com> wrote:


My intuition also tells me that, for safety's sake, to place the relay
contacts into the (white) neutral side of the AC circuit instead of the

--^^^^^^^^

(black) hot side of the AC circuit.

Um, no. You want to switch the *hot* side, not the neutral.
Ditto with fuse placement, "power switch", etc. Always interrupt
the *hot*, not the neutral.

HTH,
--don

Don is correct. *Always* switch the hot leg; never the neutral leg.

I should qualify that statement. Always switch at least the hot leg. If
you have a double-pole relay, switch both hot and neutral.

That is not really the best. There are special cases (Classified
locations and some specific safety equipment relating to classified
locations) where switching neutral is correct, but generally it is not the
best idea. See NEC article 500 et seq.

Thank you. Your example suggests that instead of "not *really* the
best," it is "not *always* the best."

 

[Reinhard Zwirner]

Jim Thompson schrieb:

[...]

There isn't any difference here. Have you not heard of the recent
charging of undercover cops in NY for criminal misbehavior? However I
think your problem is that you confuse criminal negligence versus
civil torts.

Maybe. I won't exclude this possibility. But - and the according
information hasn't proven wrong for me until now - that false arrest
of the co-founders of "New Times" likewise seems to me "criminal
misbehavior".

... You're beginning to sound like a fascist from
Germany >:-}

Could it be that you're stopping to argue ad rem and beginning to
argue ad personam?

Best regards

Reinhard

 

[josephkk]

On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:28:23 -0800, RosemontCrest
<rosemontcrest.deletethis@yahoo.com> wrote:

My intuition also tells me that, for safety's sake, to place the relay
contacts into the (white) neutral side of the AC circuit instead of the

--^^^^^^^^

(black) hot side of the AC circuit.

Um, no. You want to switch the *hot* side, not the neutral.
Ditto with fuse placement, "power switch", etc. Always interrupt
the *hot*, not the neutral.

HTH,
--don

Don is correct. *Always* switch the hot leg; never the neutral leg.

I should qualify that statement. Always switch at least the hot leg. If
you have a double-pole relay, switch both hot and neutral.

That is not really the best. There are special cases (Classified
locations and some specific safety equipment relating to classified
locations) where switching neutral is correct, but generally it is not the
best idea. See NEC article 500 et seq.

?-)

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 22:06:09 +0100, Reinhard Zwirner
<reinhard.zwirner@t-online.de> wrote:

Jim Thompson schrieb:

[...]
There isn't any difference here. Have you not heard of the recent
charging of undercover cops in NY for criminal misbehavior? However I
think your problem is that you confuse criminal negligence versus
civil torts.

Maybe. I won't exclude this possibility. But - and the according
information hasn't proven wrong for me until now - that false arrest
of the co-founders of "New Times" likewise seems to me "criminal
misbehavior".

... You're beginning to sound like a fascist from
Germany >:-}

Could it be that you're stopping to argue ad rem and beginning to
argue ad personam?

Best regards

Reinhard

Who is it that persists in obstinacy that it's "criminal misbehavior",
when he's halfway around the world _and_ getting his information via
New Times... a rag known to those living in the State of Arizona to be
a scandal sheet with more twisted reporting than any perversions seen
on MSNBC ?>:-}

To hold someone more than a few hours take a warrant. Sheriffs don't
issue warrants, Judges do. Detaining someone for questioning, then
quickly releasing doesn't count as false arrest.

As for the James Saville case... "four years in jail awaiting trial"
has a smell about it that someone other than the sheriff's department
was involved... sheriffs don't determine detention while awaiting
trial... Judges do.

Interestingly, I've lived right here in Arizona (always in the Phoenix
area) for 51 years... and I don't recall the case even making the
news... TV or newspapers (I don't count New Times as a newspaper).

I've served as an expert witness on many a patent case, where my
client was right, but the company bean counters decided that
"settlement" was more economic.

So correctness rarely has anything to do with the results when suing
is involved... sadly :-(

Both me and my wife have served on (separate) juries. I always seem
to manage to be elected foreman >:-} In general jury pools are
occupied by people who aren't smart enough to avoid jury duty... I
mostly escape, but sometimes I get picked anyway. Used to be easy to
duck jury duty... show up smoking a pipe and reading a newspaper...
now neither is allowed in the court room :-( Lawyers don't like
informed jurists and prosecutors fear run-away juries (see the movie
by that name)... aka jury nullification.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.]

In article <3tfub9dngh3kuibvf3leaqo9lcpg3or0ar@4ax.com>,
joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net says...

On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:28:23 -0800, RosemontCrest
rosemontcrest.deletethis@yahoo.com> wrote:


My intuition also tells me that, for safety's sake, to place the relay
contacts into the (white) neutral side of the AC circuit instead of the

--^^^^^^^^

(black) hot side of the AC circuit.

Um, no. You want to switch the *hot* side, not the neutral.
Ditto with fuse placement, "power switch", etc. Always interrupt
the *hot*, not the neutral.

HTH,
--don

Don is correct. *Always* switch the hot leg; never the neutral leg.

I should qualify that statement. Always switch at least the hot leg. If
you have a double-pole relay, switch both hot and neutral.

That is not really the best. There are special cases (Classified
locations and some specific safety equipment relating to classified
locations) where switching neutral is correct, but generally it is not the
best idea. See NEC article 500 et seq.

?-)

Low side switching is very common but it usually does not leave the
safety zone. For example, inside an industrial control cabinet and
integrated reversing relays that passes the neutral of a pair of coils
through an overload contact.

Other examples where you may need various voltages to be switched from
a single triac output module array. Those would have it's common leg
tied to neutral and all the devices coming to each triac output would be
alive at all times with their required voltages, 24, 48, 115, 230, 480
AC. Etc.

Jamie

 

dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:

Without patents it wouldn't make sense to do all that work--make all
that investment--only to have it ripped off the nanosecond you ship.

A patent makes it even easier... People's Shining Switching Power Supply
Factories 1 through 37 can start working on it as soon as they can get a
copy of the patent! For an extra penny per unit, PSSPSF will even use
the good fake UL marking, rather than the standard one they did in
Microsoft Paint.

Matt Roberds

 

On Saturday, December 28, 2013 10:14:31 PM UTC-5, mrob...@att.net wrote:

dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:

Without patents it wouldn't make sense to do all that work--make all
that investment--only to have it ripped off the nanosecond you ship.

A patent makes it even easier... People's Shining Switching Power Supply

Factories 1 through 37 can start working on it as soon as they can get a
copy of the patent! For an extra penny per unit, PSSPSF will even use
the good fake UL marking, rather than the standard one they did in
Microsoft Paint.

True, but you can sue. That's all a patent really boils down to--
the right to sue someone for copying your <gadget>.

Trade secrets are better, if possible. But much hardware--esp. a
topology, like this--is so easily reverse-engineered, that trade
secrets are useless.

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2013-12-28, Peter <nospam@nospam9876.com> wrote:

I know you can send data that way (because it can be encoded with just
edges, and providing there isn't too much common mode noise, the edges
can be decoded) but I can't see any way to transfer *power* that way.

use a higher frequency.

_ _ _ .........
/ \_/ \_/ \ --||--:~ +:--
_ _ : -|>|- :
\_/ \_/ \_/ --||--:~ -:--
:.......:

Inductive components are needed if you want isolation - as in most
consumer appliances.

It's usually more practical to do it that way.
there's rules about the size and type of capacitors
that are allowed accross an isolation barrier.

LED lamps don't need isolation and there is a huge amount of work
being done in that area.

Yes, it's the same for any other double-insulated appliance.

--
For a good time: install ntp

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

 

[Bill Sloman]

On 29/12/2013 2:22 AM, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:

On Friday, December 27, 2013 10:38:32 PM UTC-5, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 28/12/2013 5:55 AM, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:


snip



I think it's more basic. #1, they don't understand it, #2, they're afraid.

Think about that--under Barack Obama, and all his promises of openness and
big, friendly Big Borg Brother--we now live in a country where the people
are afraid of their government. Indeed, our friends across the world are
afraid of it too. And probably should be.

People across the world have been afraid of the US for quite some time
now. "Banana republics" preceded the CIA-orchestrated replacement of
Mossadeq in Iran - by the Shah, who was a bit too far towards your side
of the political spectrum to last - as was Pinochet in Chile, ditto.

McCarthy is the poster-child for far-right-thinking people of your
description, and anybody not afraid of his reincarnation in the US
hasn't been paying enough attention to Tea Party propaganda.

A magnificent display.

So, if Barack "You can keep your plan" Obama spies on Merkel--and
defends it in court[1]--it's the Tea Party's fault. Or Joe McCarthy.

[1] http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/nsa-phone-surveillance-ruling-101569.html

The court defense was of meta-data collection, rather than the
collecting of the details of the actual telephone calls, which was what
Dubbya initiated on Merkel.

The US decline into far-right paranoia hasn't got much to do with Obama,
and has got a lot to do with the kind of shoddy right-wing selective
thinking that you regularly exhibit here.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney