Driver to drive?

Dave Hazelwood wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:00:23 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 06:49:33 -0700 (PDT), Greg Thomas
gjthomas@earthlink.net> wrote:

On Sep 21, 8:22 pm, Paul<Quiller...@gmail.com> wrote:

Face it, trickle-down economics doesn't
work, because the rich don't always re-invest in
new businesses. Often they just keep the money
in a bank.


Or under their mattress.

How do you keep $30 billion under a matress?

John


All you need is a few grams of anti-matter and your all set.

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-most-expensive-substance-in-the-world.htm
Osmium is obtainable and the most compact and high-value material.
 
On 2013-06-04, Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote:
How do you keep $30 billion under a matress?


All you need is a few grams of anti-matter and your all set.

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-most-expensive-substance-in-the-world.htm
Osmium is obtainable and the most compact and high-value material.
not here:

http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/preciousmetalpricesusdollars.html


--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---
 
ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

check it again pal it's almost DOUBLE !!!!!

Obama has outspent all the POTUS in history COMBINED !!!

Things are about to blow and I don't mean Courtie !



On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:14:52 -0700, walkinay@nv.net (hank alrich)
wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

I think that to a large extent the USA is beyond money.

You really think so? Witness:

-----

U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK

The Outstanding Public Debt as of 22 Sep 2008 at 07:05:46 PM GMT is:
$ 9 , 6 7 1 , 7 9 0 , 2 9 3 , 0 7 7 . 6 2

The estimated population of the United States is 304,775,541
so each citizen's share of this debt is $31,734.14.

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$1.84 billion per day since September 28, 2007!

-----

If were beyhond money, why do we need to borrow so much money?

Note also that we manufacture not much compared to what we did in the
fairly recent past, and that leads to a tremendous imbalance in our
national trade.

-----

http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/ustrade.html

-----

We're down about 230 billion $.
 
What really annoys me about the financial state in which most of us find
ourselves caught is that the politicians and CEOs and "experts" whose
actions put us here are accepting no responsibility for any of it.
Europe is not going to climb out of the hole that they have dug by
taking money away from the populace and causing a further slump in
business activity.
Not that I have any even half way sensible suggestions about what should
be done.
MJRB
 
On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 16:49:07 +1030, Mike Brown
<rockon02@chariot.net.au> wrote:

What really annoys me about the financial state in which most of us find
ourselves caught is that the politicians and CEOs and "experts" whose
actions put us here are accepting no responsibility for any of it.
Europe is not going to climb out of the hole that they have dug by
taking money away from the populace and causing a further slump in
business activity.
Not that I have any even half way sensible suggestions about what should
be done.
MJRB

The party is about to be over.

Massive NSA spying on Americans, IRS targeting conservative groups,
reporters being investigated for doing their jobs, massive ammunition
buying and practicing for martial law. Put all these stories together
(that have all been reported in the news,) and what picture do you see
taking shape? What does the government see coming? What are they
getting ready for? All the signs appear to show a government that is
preparing to take control and stay in control by force, if necessary.
Why? That's what you all should be asking yourselves. Join Greg Hunter
of USAWatchdog.com as he looks at these stories and more in the Weekly
News Wrap-Up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X-YXye-l-c

Gerald Celente - Trends In The News - "A Lost Generation?" - (6/11/13)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXxzIO9jkBw

Max Keiser Predicted Dollar Collapse 10 Months Prior

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHDCSORpIPg
 
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George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> writes:

On Friday, June 28, 2013 8:45:19 AM UTC-4, JW wrote:
Looking for a suitable cross-reference for a National PF5301 TO-92 N

channel JFET as I can't find the original part anywhere. Hell, I can't

even find an original datasheet. The critical parameter for the sub is

Igss which for the National part is 1pA. The only thing I've been able to

find so far is a Linear Systems LS5301 which has a Ig of 1pA, but at $40 a

pop (!), I'd like to find an alternate.



Does anyone know of any possible substitutes?

I'm always seeing these ~1/4 page adds in ED or EDN for a company that
still does Jfets... I couldn't find it in a quick browse through
EDN.. but I toss them to a tech. guy after I skim them. Maybe someone
else can recall the name, or find it. (No list of advertisers for
EDN.. I guess that would add too many additional pages, for which
they'd need more add revenue.. etc.)
Maybe Interfet, or Linear Systems?

--

John Devereux
 
On Friday, June 28, 2013 8:45:19 AM UTC-4, JW wrote:
Looking for a suitable cross-reference for a National PF5301 TO-92 N

channel JFET as I can't find the original part anywhere. Hell, I can't

even find an original datasheet. The critical parameter for the sub is

Igss which for the National part is 1pA. The only thing I've been able to

find so far is a Linear Systems LS5301 which has a Ig of 1pA, but at $40 a

pop (!), I'd like to find an alternate.



Does anyone know of any possible substitutes?
I'm always seeing these ~1/4 page adds in ED or EDN for a company that still does Jfets... I couldn't find it in a quick browse through EDN.. but I toss them to a tech. guy after I skim them. Maybe someone else can recall the name, or find it. (No list of advertisers for EDN.. I guess that would add too many additional pages, for which they'd need more add revenue.. etc.)

George H.
 
On Friday, June 28, 2013 9:42:06 AM UTC-4, John Devereux wrote:
George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> writes:



On Friday, June 28, 2013 8:45:19 AM UTC-4, JW wrote:

Looking for a suitable cross-reference for a National PF5301 TO-92 N



channel JFET as I can't find the original part anywhere. Hell, I can't



even find an original datasheet. The critical parameter for the sub is



Igss which for the National part is 1pA. The only thing I've been able to



find so far is a Linear Systems LS5301 which has a Ig of 1pA, but at $40 a



pop (!), I'd like to find an alternate.







Does anyone know of any possible substitutes?



I'm always seeing these ~1/4 page adds in ED or EDN for a company that

still does Jfets... I couldn't find it in a quick browse through

EDN.. but I toss them to a tech. guy after I skim them. Maybe someone

else can recall the name, or find it. (No list of advertisers for

EDN.. I guess that would add too many additional pages, for which

they'd need more add revenue.. etc.)



Maybe Interfet, or Linear Systems?
Bingo! Linear systems is the add I'm thinking of..
Oh, the OP's already been there.

Sorry.

George H.
--



John Devereux
 
On Sat, 13 Jul 2013 17:22:52 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:35:57 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
Folks,



Has anyone tried this? I have to lock a PLL around 10kHz into a certain

odd phase angle. No problem to do that with a bunch of hardware like

usual. If one were to do that with the PC via a USB sound card, the PC

could measure the phase angle and then adjust a software tone generator

(output via sound card) to always match the phase angle even if stuff in

the outside resonant structure changes.



I need the PLL to follow within 10msec or so. Seems like the 1msec USB

latency could get in the way. Or is there a trick to circumvent that?

Since sound chips have frequency responses up to 22kHZ and rarely hiccup

I could imagine there is a way.


I believe usb 2.0 is 125us and usb3.0 possibly less, but I guess it would
only apply to high speed and I don't know if any soundcards use that

I think windows will be more of a problem, a timeslice is something like tens of milliseconds


It has to run on Windows. I guess that could jinx the whole idea then.
Windows has Multimedia timers that are more accurate than the standard
timers, not sure if it will help.

Cheers
 
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:30:25 AM UTC+2, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:35:57 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:

Folks,







Has anyone tried this? I have to lock a PLL around 10kHz into a certain



odd phase angle. No problem to do that with a bunch of hardware like



usual. If one were to do that with the PC via a USB sound card, the PC



could measure the phase angle and then adjust a software tone generator



(output via sound card) to always match the phase angle even if stuff in



the outside resonant structure changes.







I need the PLL to follow within 10msec or so. Seems like the 1msec USB



latency could get in the way. Or is there a trick to circumvent that?



Since sound chips have frequency responses up to 22kHZ and rarely hiccup



I could imagine there is a way.





I believe usb 2.0 is 125us and usb3.0 possibly less, but I guess it would

only apply to high speed and I don't know if any soundcards use that



I think windows will be more of a problem, a timeslice is something like tens of milliseconds
Normally 10ms for windows.

For a test setup I tried a practical solution in which I needed to test a Modbus RTU device using a Labwindows Timer to trigger a USB to serial device and I got about 1ms jitter, no loss of telegrams.

I prioritized the task for the Labwindows CVI program in the Task Sceduler, but did not test if that really made any difference.

But, for this to work you cannot lauch other programs except if they will be running on another core.

Regards

Klaus
 
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 3:27:15 AM UTC+2, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:30:25 AM UTC+2, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:35:57 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:



Folks,















Has anyone tried this? I have to lock a PLL around 10kHz into a certain







odd phase angle. No problem to do that with a bunch of hardware like







usual. If one were to do that with the PC via a USB sound card, the PC







could measure the phase angle and then adjust a software tone generator







(output via sound card) to always match the phase angle even if stuff in







the outside resonant structure changes.















I need the PLL to follow within 10msec or so. Seems like the 1msec USB







latency could get in the way. Or is there a trick to circumvent that?







Since sound chips have frequency responses up to 22kHZ and rarely hiccup







I could imagine there is a way.











I believe usb 2.0 is 125us and usb3.0 possibly less, but I guess it would



only apply to high speed and I don't know if any soundcards use that







I think windows will be more of a problem, a timeslice is something like tens of milliseconds





Normally 10ms for windows.



For a test setup I tried a practical solution in which I needed to test a Modbus RTU device using a Labwindows Timer to trigger a USB to serial device and I got about 1ms jitter, no loss of telegrams.



I prioritized the task for the Labwindows CVI program in the Task Sceduler, but did not test if that really made any difference.



But, for this to work you cannot lauch other programs except if they will be running on another core.



Regards



Klaus
This guy apparently get sub us timing on windows even with running all sorts of heavy applications:

http://www.tenasys.com/index.php/tenasys-products/intime-rtos-family/intime-for-windows

Video:

http://www.tenasys.com/index.php/intime-timer-interrupt-latency

Cheers

Klaus
 
On Sat, 13 Jul 2013 20:40:54 -0400, Martin Riddle
<martin_rid@verizon.net> wrote:

Windows has Multimedia timers that are more accurate than the standard
timers, not sure if it will help.
Multimedia timers makes it possible to activate a thread at any
millisecond and the activation was well within a millisecond (as
measured by the TSC) with light load (no keyboard or mouse activity,
blank screen saver) when I tested it on a Pentium II 167 MHz NT4.

However, timing resolution is of interest only if you have to poll
inputs cyclically (since DOS style busy waiting not appropriate for
multitasking operating system environments), in which the cycle time
determines how often the input can be polled.

If the USB hardware generates an interrupt at the end of each USB
frame and the kernel mode driver translates this to a waitable object,
then the user mode thread could be activated at any time and thus the
timer resolution is of no interest.

In most sound application, the sound card must be fed with 200 bytes
every millisecond or 2000 bytes every 10 ms, it must be heavily
buffered.

Some USB in USB out configuration might work, especially if the PLL
processing is done within the USB interrupt service routine, posting
the response from within the ISR. However, since the Windows USB
driver source code is not generally available, adding the PLL code to
the driver gets very hard. In addition the driver structure seems to
change at any major version, requiring driver updates every few years.
 
On Sunday, 14 July 2013 08:35:57 UTC+10, Joerg wrote:
Folks,
Has anyone tried this? I have to lock a PLL around 10kHz into a certai
odd phase angle. No problem to do that with a bunch of hardware like
usual. If one were to do that with the PC via a USB sound card, the PC
could measure the phase angle and then adjust a software tone generator
(output via sound card) to always match the phase angle even if stuff in
the outside resonant structure changes.
I need the PLL to follow within 10msec or so. Seems like the 1msec USB
latency could get in the way. Or is there a trick to circumvent that?
Since sound chips have frequency responses up to 22kHZ and rarely hiccup
I could imagine there is a way.
If the oscillator in the phase-locked loop were a DDS chip, where you can manipulate both phase and frequency digitally, it could be reasonably straightforward. The messy bit is that it is going to take your sound card an appreciable time to accumulate enough data on the oscillator to which you are locking and the oscillator that you are trying to lock, to let you calculate your frequency correction, so you probably have to get the frequency pretty much exactly right before you can start fiddling with the phase - as long as the frequencies aren't locked, the desired phase correction will drift with time, and if you don't know precisely when the USB link will dump the phase correction into the DDS chip, you won't be able to get it exactly right.

But you should be able to get close enough for all practical purposes pretty rapidly. As in the old engineer/physicist joke.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jul 2013 20:40:54 -0400, Martin Riddle
martin_rid@verizon.net> wrote:

Windows has Multimedia timers that are more accurate than the standard
timers, not sure if it will help.

Multimedia timers makes it possible to activate a thread at any
millisecond and the activation was well within a millisecond (as
measured by the TSC) with light load (no keyboard or mouse activity,
blank screen saver) when I tested it on a Pentium II 167 MHz NT4.

However, timing resolution is of interest only if you have to poll
inputs cyclically (since DOS style busy waiting not appropriate for
multitasking operating system environments), in which the cycle time
determines how often the input can be polled.
It is definitely cyclical. But ...


If the USB hardware generates an interrupt at the end of each USB
frame and the kernel mode driver translates this to a waitable object,
then the user mode thread could be activated at any time and thus the
timer resolution is of no interest.

In most sound application, the sound card must be fed with 200 bytes
every millisecond or 2000 bytes every 10 ms, it must be heavily
buffered.

Some USB in USB out configuration might work, especially if the PLL
processing is done within the USB interrupt service routine, posting
the response from within the ISR. However, since the Windows USB
driver source code is not generally available, adding the PLL code to
the driver gets very hard. In addition the driver structure seems to
change at any major version, requiring driver updates every few years.
.... that would throw a major rock into the whole scheme. Maybe I'll habe
to do that the old analog way after all.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 3:27:15 AM UTC+2, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:30:25 AM UTC+2, Lasse Langwadt
Christensen wrote:

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:35:57 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
Folks, Has anyone tried this? I have to lock a PLL around 10kHz
into a certain odd phase angle. No problem to do that with a
bunch of hardware like usual. If one were to do that with the
PC via a USB sound card, the PC could measure the phase angle
and then adjust a software tone generator (output via sound
card) to always match the phase angle even if stuff in the
outside resonant structure changes. I need the PLL to follow
within 10msec or so. Seems like the 1msec USB latency could get
in the way. Or is there a trick to circumvent that? Since sound
chips have frequency responses up to 22kHZ and rarely hiccup I
could imagine there is a way.
I believe usb 2.0 is 125us and usb3.0 possibly less, but I guess
it would only apply to high speed and I don't know if any
soundcards use that I think windows will be more of a problem, a
timeslice is something like tens of milliseconds


Normally 10ms for windows.



For a test setup I tried a practical solution in which I needed to
test a Modbus RTU device using a Labwindows Timer to trigger a USB
to serial device and I got about 1ms jitter, no loss of telegrams.
1msec could work, gives us 1kHz update rate in the loop.


I prioritized the task for the Labwindows CVI program in the Task
Sceduler, but did not test if that really made any difference.



But, for this to work you cannot lauch other programs except if
they will be running on another core.
That would be no problem. We can specify multi-core processors and the
other tasks are all non time-critical. More like file storage,
recording, documentation and stuff.


Regards



Klaus

This guy apparently get sub us timing on windows even with running
all sorts of heavy applications:

http://www.tenasys.com/index.php/tenasys-products/intime-rtos-family/intime-for-windows
Thanks, that looks interesting. But it seems more than one guy, they
have have an ofice in Munich, Germany.


Video:

http://www.tenasys.com/index.php/intime-timer-interrupt-latency
At 00:31 the work "crash" shows up in the middle of the DOS window. I
hope this doesn't mean what I think :)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
Bill Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, 14 July 2013 08:35:57 UTC+10, Joerg wrote:
Folks, Has anyone tried this? I have to lock a PLL around 10kHz
into a certai odd phase angle. No problem to do that with a bunch
of hardware like usual. If one were to do that with the PC via a
USB sound card, the PC could measure the phase angle and then
adjust a software tone generator (output via sound card) to always
match the phase angle even if stuff in the outside resonant
structure changes. I need the PLL to follow within 10msec or so.
Seems like the 1msec USB latency could get in the way. Or is there
a trick to circumvent that? Since sound chips have frequency
responses up to 22kHZ and rarely hiccup I could imagine there is a
way.

If the oscillator in the phase-locked loop were a DDS chip, where you
can manipulate both phase and frequency digitally, it could be
reasonably straightforward. The messy bit is that it is going to take
your sound card an appreciable time to accumulate enough data on the
oscillator to which you are locking and the oscillator that you are
trying to lock, to let you calculate your frequency correction, so
you probably have to get the frequency pretty much exactly right
before you can start fiddling with the phase - as long as the
frequencies aren't locked, the desired phase correction will drift
with time, and if you don't know precisely when the USB link will
dump the phase correction into the DDS chip, you won't be able to get
it exactly right.

But you should be able to get close enough for all practical purposes
pretty rapidly. As in the old engineer/physicist joke.

I would do this differently, not via sound card. The oscillator can be
controlled via direct register write into a FTDI-sumpthin' chip, and the
phase error can be read back the same way. The plant response is a bit
sluggish, a few hundred Hz bandwidth. Control response needed to get the
PLL to within a few Hertz can be 10-20msec.

It's all doable, I just don't know whether the USB link will hold up.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Bill Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, 14 July 2013 08:35:57 UTC+10, Joerg wrote:
Folks, Has anyone tried this? I have to lock a PLL around 10kHz
into a certai odd phase angle. No problem to do that with a bunch
of hardware like usual. If one were to do that with the PC via a
USB sound card, the PC could measure the phase angle and then
adjust a software tone generator (output via sound card) to always
match the phase angle even if stuff in the outside resonant
structure changes. I need the PLL to follow within 10msec or so.
Seems like the 1msec USB latency could get in the way. Or is there
a trick to circumvent that? Since sound chips have frequency
responses up to 22kHZ and rarely hiccup I could imagine there is a
way.

If the oscillator in the phase-locked loop were a DDS chip, where you
can manipulate both phase and frequency digitally, it could be
reasonably straightforward. The messy bit is that it is going to take
your sound card an appreciable time to accumulate enough data on the
oscillator to which you are locking and the oscillator that you are
trying to lock, to let you calculate your frequency correction, so
you probably have to get the frequency pretty much exactly right
before you can start fiddling with the phase - as long as the
frequencies aren't locked, the desired phase correction will drift
with time, and if you don't know precisely when the USB link will
dump the phase correction into the DDS chip, you won't be able to get
it exactly right.

But you should be able to get close enough for all practical purposes
pretty rapidly. As in the old engineer/physicist joke.
The one with Saint Pete and a group of drop-dead-gorgeous naked women?

I would do this differently, not via sound card. The oscillator can be
controlled via direct register write into a FTDI-sumpthin' chip, and the
phase error can be read back the same way. The plant response is a bit
sluggish, a few hundred Hz bandwidth. Control response needed to get the
PLL to within a few Hertz can be 10-20msec.

It's all doable, I just don't know whether the USB link will hold up.
According to _USB Complete_ the high speed mode of USB 2 supports a
maximum polling latency from 125 microseconds to 4.096 seconds.

--
Don Kuenz
 
whit3rd wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2013 6:35:57 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

Has anyone tried this? I have to lock a PLL around 10kHz into a certain
odd phase angle. No problem to do that with a bunch of hardware like
usual. If one were to do that with the PC via a USB sound card, the PC
could measure the phase angle and then adjust a software tone generator...

Or, you could just use the +5V from the USB to power the humble CD4046,
use the XOR comparator, and with an opamp difference amplifier get it to stabilize
at any phase you like (except zero or 180). If you can get stereo from the PC,
you could diddle the phase at the PC end digitally, as well, by phase-shifting
the left channel versus the right.

Or, (again using stereo outputs) generate sin(wt), and cos(wt)
and any phase you can think of is just a linear combination.

sin(wt + A) = sin(wt) cos(A) + cos(wt)sin(A)

which is a simple opamp exercise.

The old 4046 is a bit too noisy for this job. I can roll my own PLL and
use a more fancy phase detector chip such as the AD8302. For safety
reasons I wanted to avoid having to run active stuff in there. But, I
may just have to.

The strange thing is that documents like the Labjack manual state
0.6msec for high-speed USB, for the command/response method of operation
(not streaming). That would be enough, provided this really holds in
all cases. Even for "modern" operating systems beyond the good old XP,
and that's where I have my doubts.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
Don Kuenz wrote:
Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Bill Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, 14 July 2013 08:35:57 UTC+10, Joerg wrote:
Folks, Has anyone tried this? I have to lock a PLL around 10kHz
into a certai odd phase angle. No problem to do that with a bunch
of hardware like usual. If one were to do that with the PC via a
USB sound card, the PC could measure the phase angle and then
adjust a software tone generator (output via sound card) to always
match the phase angle even if stuff in the outside resonant
structure changes. I need the PLL to follow within 10msec or so.
Seems like the 1msec USB latency could get in the way. Or is there
a trick to circumvent that? Since sound chips have frequency
responses up to 22kHZ and rarely hiccup I could imagine there is a
way.
If the oscillator in the phase-locked loop were a DDS chip, where you
can manipulate both phase and frequency digitally, it could be
reasonably straightforward. The messy bit is that it is going to take
your sound card an appreciable time to accumulate enough data on the
oscillator to which you are locking and the oscillator that you are
trying to lock, to let you calculate your frequency correction, so
you probably have to get the frequency pretty much exactly right
before you can start fiddling with the phase - as long as the
frequencies aren't locked, the desired phase correction will drift
with time, and if you don't know precisely when the USB link will
dump the phase correction into the DDS chip, you won't be able to get
it exactly right.

But you should be able to get close enough for all practical purposes
pretty rapidly. As in the old engineer/physicist joke.

The one with Saint Pete and a group of drop-dead-gorgeous naked women?

I would do this differently, not via sound card. The oscillator can be
controlled via direct register write into a FTDI-sumpthin' chip, and the
phase error can be read back the same way. The plant response is a bit
sluggish, a few hundred Hz bandwidth. Control response needed to get the
PLL to within a few Hertz can be 10-20msec.

It's all doable, I just don't know whether the USB link will hold up.

According to _USB Complete_ the high speed mode of USB 2 supports a
maximum polling latency from 125 microseconds to 4.096 seconds.
125usec would be great. 4.096sec would be disastrous. Why do they give
this wide range? For polling there should be not upper time limit. You
are able to poll today, and then again in January 2014.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 

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