Driver to drive?

[Michael A. Terrell]

dave wrote:

Here's another flash, your 1.5 V "AA" NiCads are only putting out 1.2 Vdc.

And that's news?

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

dave wrote:

On 02/24/2013 05:37 AM, SoothSayer wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 05:17:53 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 02/24/2013 05:14 AM, Phil Allison wrote:
"dave"

You answered your own question. As long as the battery doesn't heat up on
a big charge you're probably OK.


** SLA or "gel cells" are prone to gassing when overcharged.

The pressure builds up inside until something gives - then you have bits
of battery and acid all over the place.

Voltage & current limited charging is the only safe and sensible way.



... Phil



They have vents.

Which are NOT meant for overcharge relief.


I didn't say they were. I was speaking to the "bits of battery and acid"
prediction above.

I've seen the results of several car batteries exploding. Maybe your
head should be under the hood when one blows.

 

[dave]

On 02/25/2013 10:54 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

dave wrote:

On 02/24/2013 05:37 AM, SoothSayer wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 05:17:53 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 02/24/2013 05:14 AM, Phil Allison wrote:
"dave"

You answered your own question. As long as the battery doesn't heat up on
a big charge you're probably OK.


** SLA or "gel cells" are prone to gassing when overcharged.

The pressure builds up inside until something gives - then you have bits
of battery and acid all over the place.

Voltage & current limited charging is the only safe and sensible way.



... Phil



They have vents.

Which are NOT meant for overcharge relief.


I didn't say they were. I was speaking to the "bits of battery and acid"
prediction above.


I've seen the results of several car batteries exploding. Maybe your
head should be under the hood when one blows.

Why is everyone so rude around here?

 

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:54:23 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net>
wrote:

On 02/25/2013 10:54 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

dave wrote:

On 02/24/2013 05:37 AM, SoothSayer wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 05:17:53 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 02/24/2013 05:14 AM, Phil Allison wrote:
"dave"

You answered your own question. As long as the battery doesn't heat up on
a big charge you're probably OK.


** SLA or "gel cells" are prone to gassing when overcharged.

The pressure builds up inside until something gives - then you have bits
of battery and acid all over the place.

Voltage & current limited charging is the only safe and sensible way.



... Phil



They have vents.

Which are NOT meant for overcharge relief.


I didn't say they were. I was speaking to the "bits of battery and acid"
prediction above.


I've seen the results of several car batteries exploding. Maybe your
head should be under the hood when one blows.


Why is everyone so rude around here?

Why are you here?

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

dave wrote:

On 02/25/2013 10:54 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

dave wrote:

On 02/24/2013 05:37 AM, SoothSayer wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 05:17:53 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 02/24/2013 05:14 AM, Phil Allison wrote:
"dave"

You answered your own question. As long as the battery doesn't heat up on
a big charge you're probably OK.


** SLA or "gel cells" are prone to gassing when overcharged.

The pressure builds up inside until something gives - then you have bits
of battery and acid all over the place.

Voltage & current limited charging is the only safe and sensible way.



... Phil



They have vents.

Which are NOT meant for overcharge relief.


I didn't say they were. I was speaking to the "bits of battery and acid"
prediction above.


I've seen the results of several car batteries exploding. Maybe your
head should be under the hood when one blows.


Why is everyone so rude around here?

Everyone is quite an exaggeration, but this isn't the kiddy's
sandbox. If you want to be spoon fed, go to news:sci.electronics.basics

This group is intended as a place to kick around design ideas, not
baby-sit beginners. If you think this place is rude, you'd never survive
a design review.

 

[dave]

On 02/25/2013 05:07 PM, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:54:23 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net
wrote:

On 02/25/2013 10:54 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

dave wrote:

On 02/24/2013 05:37 AM, SoothSayer wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 05:17:53 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 02/24/2013 05:14 AM, Phil Allison wrote:
"dave"

You answered your own question. As long as the battery doesn't heat up on
a big charge you're probably OK.


** SLA or "gel cells" are prone to gassing when overcharged.

The pressure builds up inside until something gives - then you have bits
of battery and acid all over the place.

Voltage & current limited charging is the only safe and sensible way.



... Phil



They have vents.

Which are NOT meant for overcharge relief.


I didn't say they were. I was speaking to the "bits of battery and acid"
prediction above.


I've seen the results of several car batteries exploding. Maybe your
head should be under the hood when one blows.


Why is everyone so rude around here?

Why are you here?

I am here for entertainment, mainly. most of the substantive stuff is
over my head, but the lead-acid battery is on the FCC exams you take for
an advanced license, plus I used to maintain a fleet of trucks at a
construction company, where I also serviced 2-way radios and 5 mW
surveyor lasers.

 

[SoothSayer]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 07:06:43 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 02/24/2013 05:37 AM, SoothSayer wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 05:17:53 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 02/24/2013 05:14 AM, Phil Allison wrote:
"dave"

You answered your own question. As long as the battery doesn't heat up on
a big charge you're probably OK.


** SLA or "gel cells" are prone to gassing when overcharged.

The pressure builds up inside until something gives - then you have bits
of battery and acid all over the place.

Voltage & current limited charging is the only safe and sensible way.



... Phil



They have vents.

Which are NOT meant for overcharge relief.


I didn't say they were. I was speaking to the "bits of battery and acid"
prediction above.

I wasn't saying you said something wrong. I was merely iterating that
those vents are not for charging pressure relief, per se.

 

[SoothSayer]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 07:26:22 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

13.6 Vdc is the float voltage.

No shit, dumbfuck.

Virtually all amateur radio equipment,
most mobile communications equipment and power supplies (for above) are
rated at 13.6 Vdc,

No shit, dumbfuck.

the nominal Voltage of a 6 cell lead acid battery.

But you very likely have no clue as to why.

That is a fact, no matter how rude you become.

It is also a FACT that a battery at 12 Volts is NOT discharged as you
claimed, DORK.

It has nothing to do with rudeness, it has to do with your lack of
accuracy.

Here's another flash, your 1.5 V "AA" NiCads are only putting out 1.2 Vdc.

I don't need a primer from a dipshit who cries like a wimp when he gets
corrected.


And almost everyone knows that rechargeables and alkalines are not at
the same voltage.

AND, asshole, they are NOT "1.5 Volt NiCads". They ARE 1.2 volt
NiCads.

so, I am "rude", but YOU are "stupid".

 

[Phil Allison]

"dave"

** SLA or "gel cells" are prone to gassing when overcharged.

The pressure builds up inside until something gives - then you have
bits
of battery and acid all over the place.

Voltage & current limited charging is the only safe and sensible way.


They have vents.

** Most do not - eg:

http://cdn-products.austinkayak.com/p_8037_700.jpg

An acquaintance had a 12V gell battery like the one pictured explode
violently while doing just what the OP here is contemplating. He was
sleeping nearby at the time an got one HELL of a scare !!!!

Makers all warn against using unregulated ( ie raw, rectified AC ) chargers
with gell or SLA batteries.

BTW:

Makers also warn against shorting the battery and often quote a max safe
discharge current.

The penalty for ignoring this advice is a dead battery when the deliberate
(weak link ) fuse inside goes open.


..... Phil

 

[SoothSayer]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 22:45:10 -0000, "Ian Field"
<gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote in message
news:72pWs.41135$Q91.3308@newsfe26.iad...
Mike Cook wrote:
A friend has a battery powered Ryobi lawn trimmer ("weed whacker") which
doesn't work. The 12vdc wall wart puts out only ~ 12.4v.

I charged the lead-acid gel cell using a car charger. The charge rate
(selectable) was 0.5A. Afterward the trimmer seemed to work as new. Can
the car charger be used to charge this battery? He can install a timer to
limit charge time if that's something required.

Thanks.



THe OEM charger most likely is unfiltered. Put a cap on the output but do
not connect it to the battery and then do a voltage check.


The old "iron-transformer" chargers were usually impedance limited, so the
off load voltage will be significantly more than nominal (enough to get a
mildly sulphated battery going). In addition a capacitor would charge to the
AC peak so what you read would be even higher still.

Until you load it.

Unloaded, an old xformer/rectifier battery charger always had
significantly higher voltage without a battery on it.

BIG ripple!

But once a battery is charged and even peaked out, that higher voltage
peak can blow the damned things up, so all charging sessions had to be
monitored to keep them from exploding. Then better chargers came out.

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't one you could operate or
observe with your iPad. There are Wi-Fi and/or bluetooth handheld meters
now. That would be enough to know when to go shut it off.

 

[dave]

On 02/25/2013 08:26 PM, SoothSayer wrote:

NiCads.

so, I am "rude", but YOU are "stupid".

From my first comment on the thread:

"I'd find a smartcharger with a "lead-acid" setting."

_______________________________________________________________________

"Smartcharger" being a generic term for a charger than knows what it is
charging and the best way to charge it.

http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/Switching-power/p/sm/1058385043.htm

I have no doubt that you know way more than I do, but your actions
betray a profound insecurity. I prefer being "stupid" to the obvious
heavy burden of knowing enough to justify insults and abuse.

 

[dave]

On 02/25/2013 08:27 PM, Phil Allison wrote:

"dave"

** SLA or "gel cells" are prone to gassing when overcharged.

The pressure builds up inside until something gives - then
you have bits of battery and acid all over the place.

Voltage & current limited charging is the only safe and
sensible way.


They have vents.


** Most do not - eg:

http://cdn-products.austinkayak.com/p_8037_700.jpg

An acquaintance had a 12V gell battery like the one pictured explode
violently while doing just what the OP here is contemplating. He was
sleeping nearby at the time an got one HELL of a scare !!!!

Makers all warn against using unregulated ( ie raw, rectified AC )
chargers with gell or SLA batteries.

BTW:

Makers also warn against shorting the battery and often quote a max
safe discharge current.

The penalty for ignoring this advice is a dead battery when the
deliberate (weak link ) fuse inside goes open.


.... Phil

"An absorbed glass mat battery has the electrolyte absorbed in a

fiber-glass mat separator. A gel cell has the electrolyte mixed with
silica dust to form an immobilized gel.

While these batteries are often colloquially called sealed lead–acid
batteries,

they always include a safety pressure relief valve.

As
opposed to vented (also called flooded) batteries, a VRLA cannot spill
its electrolyte if it is inverted."
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery

 

[SoothSayer]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 06:42:48 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

they always include a safety pressure relief valve.

As

For NORMAL battery utilization. NOT a vent for charging pressure
relief.. The device and or person doing the charging has to keep the
process below any overt gassing level.

 

[dave]

On 02/26/2013 06:52 AM, SoothSayer wrote:

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 06:42:48 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

they always include a safety pressure relief valve.

As


For NORMAL battery utilization. NOT a vent for charging pressure
relief.. The device and or person doing the charging has to keep the
process below any overt gassing level.

OK. My only other point was that 12 Vdc nominal is never 12 Vdc, except
when the battery is severely discharged. A lot of mobile equipment will
not work properly on 12 Vdc.

"A car battery is considered charged at 12.4 volts or higher. It is
considered discharged when it's at 12.39 volts or less."

-http://www.autobatteries.com/basics/voltage1.asp

You are allowed to nag precise, and I am too.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 06:58:16 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net>
wrote:

On 02/26/2013 06:52 AM, SoothSayer wrote:
On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 06:42:48 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

they always include a safety pressure relief valve.

As


For NORMAL battery utilization. NOT a vent for charging pressure
relief.. The device and or person doing the charging has to keep the
process below any overt gassing level.


OK. My only other point was that 12 Vdc nominal is never 12 Vdc, except
when the battery is severely discharged. A lot of mobile equipment will
not work properly on 12 Vdc.

"A car battery is considered charged at 12.4 volts or higher. It is
considered discharged when it's at 12.39 volts or less."

- http://www.autobatteries.com/basics/voltage1.asp

You are allowed to nag precise, and I am too.

Damn! I didn't know that Larkin and Jamie had joined up to provide a
page of ignorance on Lead-Acid batteries >:-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[SoothSayer]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 06:58:16 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

A lot of mobile equipment will
not work properly on 12 Vdc.

Stop lying.

The devices designed for 13.6 v typically will operate within a supply
source voltage window.

12 volts is far too close to 13.6 for any device I can think of having
a problem. I think you are making shit up.

 

[dave]

On 02/26/2013 07:39 AM, SoothSayer wrote:

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 06:58:16 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

A lot of mobile equipment will
not work properly on 12 Vdc.


Stop lying.

The devices designed for 13.6 v typically will operate within a supply
source voltage window.

12 volts is far too close to 13.6 for any device I can think of having
a problem. I think you are making shit up.

http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?246634-ATX-Power-Supply-for-Ham-Radio

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

dave wrote:

On 02/26/2013 06:52 AM, SoothSayer wrote:
On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 06:42:48 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

they always include a safety pressure relief valve.

As


For NORMAL battery utilization. NOT a vent for charging pressure
relief.. The device and or person doing the charging has to keep the
process below any overt gassing level.


OK. My only other point was that 12 Vdc nominal is never 12 Vdc, except
when the battery is severely discharged. A lot of mobile equipment will
not work properly on 12 Vdc.

"A car battery is considered charged at 12.4 volts or higher. It is
considered discharged when it's at 12.39 volts or less."

-http://www.autobatteries.com/basics/voltage1.asp

You are allowed to nag precise, and I am too.

12.4 volts? The cells are 2.1 volts each when fully charged &
sitting idle.

 

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 18:27:34 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net>
wrote:

On 02/25/2013 05:07 PM, krw@attt.bizz wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:54:23 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net
wrote:

On 02/25/2013 10:54 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

dave wrote:

On 02/24/2013 05:37 AM, SoothSayer wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 05:17:53 -0800, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 02/24/2013 05:14 AM, Phil Allison wrote:
"dave"

You answered your own question. As long as the battery doesn't heat up on
a big charge you're probably OK.


** SLA or "gel cells" are prone to gassing when overcharged.

The pressure builds up inside until something gives - then you have bits
of battery and acid all over the place.

Voltage & current limited charging is the only safe and sensible way.



... Phil



They have vents.

Which are NOT meant for overcharge relief.


I didn't say they were. I was speaking to the "bits of battery and acid"
prediction above.


I've seen the results of several car batteries exploding. Maybe your
head should be under the hood when one blows.


Why is everyone so rude around here?

Why are you here?


I am here for entertainment, mainly.

Ah Ha!

most of the substantive stuff is
over my head, but the lead-acid battery is on the FCC exams you take for
an advanced license,

Oohhh! I'm impressed. You took a *real* FCC license exam. Did you
pass?

plus I used to maintain a fleet of trucks at a
construction company, where I also serviced 2-way radios and 5 mW
surveyor lasers.

So you know it all. Great!

 

On Sunday, February 24, 2013 5:49:26 AM UTC-5, mrob...@att.net wrote:

Followups set to sci.electronics.repair .



In sci.electronics.components Mike Cook <mcham@notyahoo.com> wrote:

Can the car charger be used to charge this battery?



Probably. Do you know what the amp-hour capacity is of the battery that

is in there now? A little Googling *1 suggests that the original 12 V

battery might have been six Gates/Hawker/Enersys "Cyclon" 2 V cells in

series; the replacement that one site sells looks suspiciously like the

common or garden 12 V 7 amp-hour "gel cell", plus a couple of brackets

to make it fit. If the battery capacity is around 6 or 7 amp-hours,

then the 0.5 A charger will work OK, as long as you don't mind it taking

12 or more hours for a full charge.



One manufacturer of these batteries *2 says this is how you charge the

12 V, 7 Ah size:



"Limit initial current to 2.1A. Charge until battery voltage (under

charge) reaches 14.4 to 14.7 volts at 68°F (20°C). Hold at 14.4 to 14.7

volts until current drops to under 70mA. Battery is fully charged under

these conditions, and charger should be disconnected or switched to

"float" voltage."



So... the 0.5 A car battery charger should be OK. The charger you have

may not do the automatic float and shutoff - more below.



The voltage output by the car charger will be slightly different than

what a sealed battery needs; this is probably not too important in this

application, but may reduce battery life a little. If you want, you can

get an "official" charger for sealed batteries for $35 or so; *3 has

0.8 A output and will work a little faster. Or, get one of the

automatic car battery maintainers like a Deltran Battery Tender or

Schumacher Battery Companion; these usually have 1.0 to 1.5 A outputs

and will automagically switch to a low-current charge once the battery

is full. These are easy to find at local stores.



He can install a timer to limit charge time if that's something

required.



If the charger doesn't have any kind of automatic shutoff, then this

might not be a bad idea. The million dollar question is "how long is

enough". The answer depends on how discharged the battery is. The

simple answer (for a 7 amp-hour battery) is 7 amp-hours / 0.5 amps
14 hours. But: the charge won't be 0.5 A for the whole time. It may

start off that way but it will go down as the battery charges up, so

a full charge will take longer.



At a guess, I would get one of those 12 hour spring wound timer switches

(often used with attic fans) from the hardware store, and put it in an

outlet box along with an outlet and a cord. Maybe set it for 2 or 3

hours the first time, then when it shuts off, measure the battery

voltage to find out how full it is. If not full enough, repeat. After

a few runs you will know what to set the timer to initially.



*1 http://www.ereplacementparts.com/ryobi-150r-41ae150f034-volt-battery-trimmer-parts-c-7931_15633_18531.html



*2 http://www.power-sonic.com/images/powersonic/sla_batteries/ps_psg_series/12volt/PS-1270_11_Feb_21.pdf



*3 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Power-Sonic/PSC-12800A-C/?qs=XATL/JQ9g1zerdAMdrMzKQ=


Standard disclaimers apply; I don't get money or other consideration

from any companies mentioned.



Matt Roberds

You have him so wrapped up in safeguards it will take 24 hours to re-charge that battery at 0.5A. The OP is the same ignorant eternal-september troll living in a junkyard who knows enough to be dangerous. All his posts are about junk he's fished out of a dumpster.