Driver to drive?

[Jim Yanik]

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com/Snicker>
wrote in news:ch7ni5ptab13kvhcr28uo31qb03l86685d@4ax.com:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:02:05 -0600, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov
wrote:

krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in
news:t6pli5taujnq2pqp7rqh084udrbgfoomhs@4ax.com:

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:05:15 -0800 (PST), Le Chaud Lapin
jaibuduvin@gmail.com> wrote:

On Dec 17, 7:44 pm, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
What do you mean "get the encryption right"? I understood that
there was no encryption at all.

I just assumed that, since it is the US military, employing a drone
to do semi-stealth reconnaisance, that a basic requirement would be
that young kids who probably earn < $100/month should not be able to
intercept the stealth video. My bad.

Maybe they should leave it as it is. That way, the terrorists could
put it up on YouTube. Maybe there is a Hollywood show in it...

Perhaps it was intentional. They can sell electronics to the
terrorists. Who knows what backdoors lurk...

"So You Think You Can Out-Run A Hell-Fire Missile."

"Smile! You're on Candid Camera!"


the US now has a very small Air-Ground Missile in development;it's
called Spike(not the Israeli Spike ATGM),and is 2 ft long,5.3 lb total
and has a 1 lb warhead,electro-optical guidance.It's intended to take
out unarmored/lightly armored vehicles or single rooms in buildings
and not cause a lot of collateral damage.
A soldier can carry three missiles and launcher,and it can also be
carried on the drones.

it's like a small model rocket.

http://defense-update.com/products/s/spike_laser.htm

That's the sort of thing I recommend to stop "hot pursuit"
situations...

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/321871

Stop on an officer's order or we make you stop ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Heck,-I- want a launch rail on MY car.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:11:47 -0600, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov>
wrote:

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com/Snicker
wrote in news:ch7ni5ptab13kvhcr28uo31qb03l86685d@4ax.com:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:02:05 -0600, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov
wrote:

krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in
news:t6pli5taujnq2pqp7rqh084udrbgfoomhs@4ax.com:

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:05:15 -0800 (PST), Le Chaud Lapin
jaibuduvin@gmail.com> wrote:

On Dec 17, 7:44 pm, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
What do you mean "get the encryption right"? I understood that
there was no encryption at all.

I just assumed that, since it is the US military, employing a drone
to do semi-stealth reconnaisance, that a basic requirement would be
that young kids who probably earn < $100/month should not be able to
intercept the stealth video. My bad.

Maybe they should leave it as it is. That way, the terrorists could
put it up on YouTube. Maybe there is a Hollywood show in it...

Perhaps it was intentional. They can sell electronics to the
terrorists. Who knows what backdoors lurk...

"So You Think You Can Out-Run A Hell-Fire Missile."

"Smile! You're on Candid Camera!"


the US now has a very small Air-Ground Missile in development;it's
called Spike(not the Israeli Spike ATGM),and is 2 ft long,5.3 lb total
and has a 1 lb warhead,electro-optical guidance.It's intended to take
out unarmored/lightly armored vehicles or single rooms in buildings
and not cause a lot of collateral damage.
A soldier can carry three missiles and launcher,and it can also be
carried on the drones.

it's like a small model rocket.

http://defense-update.com/products/s/spike_laser.htm

That's the sort of thing I recommend to stop "hot pursuit"
situations...

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/321871

Stop on an officer's order or we make you stop ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Heck,-I- want a launch rail on MY car.

Anybody have plans for a rail gun ?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Help save the environment!
Please dispose of socialism properly!

 

[David Schwartz]

On Dec 17, 10:54 pm, Le Chaud Lapin <jaibudu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Apparently, the link from Satellite to Predator is digital and follows
a standard format for such links, which the SkyGrabber software is
familiar with:

Where did you find something that says that the video link to the
Predator is the one that's being grabbed?

In any case, the link from drone to satellite is digital, and link
from satellite to ground station is almost certainly digital, as it
would make no sense at all to decode a digital bit stream arriving
from the drone into the satellite, decode that bitstream, convert it
to analog, then send it back to earth in some analog format, which
would be hopelessly inefficient in so many ways.

It is my understanding that it was the link to the ground station that
was digital and being intercepted, not the link from the Predator. If
you can point to some reliable source that says otherwise, let me
know. I'll be mightily surprised.

DS

 

[Joel Koltner]

"Le Chaud Lapin" <jaibuduvin@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e53174eb-234b-4682-9c7e-64aa20516878@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

I work with digital communication 5 days a week, 3+ hours a day,
including symmetric and assymetric cipher systems of the kind that
might be used by the military, so some of the responses are just as
perplexing to me as mine is to you.

To add more fuel to the fire:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/12/not-just-drones-militants-can-snoop-on-most-us-warplanes/

IMO the lack of encryption was a failure in management. I would bet you a
nickel that when the systems were being developed, the contractors said,
"sure, we can add encryption, but it will add years and millions to the
development schedule," and someone made the Executive Decision to skip it.

This is a major problem with many military and commercial contracts today:
Often the people with the high-dollar decision-making authority don't have the
technical background to know if someone pitching them a huge schedule and cost
increase are doing so because what's being asked for really is a Hard Problem
or just because the contractor doesn't happen to be very good in that area.

---Joel

 

[Le Chaud Lapin]

On Dec 18, 2:55 am, spop...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:

Le Chaud Lapin  <jaibudu...@gmail.com> wrote:

It should be noted that decrypting in non-real time, right now, in
December, 2009, is impossible using 256-bit AES.

WTF are you talking about?

This is precisely a question I have asked myself with regard to a few
of the other posts.

I work with digital communication 5 days a week, 3+ hours a day,
including symmetric and assymetric cipher systems of the kind that
might be used by the military, so some of the responses are just as
perplexing to me as mine is to you.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

 

[Eric Jacobsen]

On 12/17/2009 11:54 PM, Le Chaud Lapin wrote:

On Dec 18, 12:09 am, David Schwartz<dav...@webmaster.com> wrote:
On Dec 17, 7:13 pm, Le Chaud Lapin<jaibudu...@gmail.com> wrote:
Cannot be done. The satellite that the predator talks to only supports
analog video.

3. Receive encrypted digital data from satellite to ground-based
satellite receiver.
4. Decrypt the data after it enters PC, or whatever over-priced thingy
they have waiting for the encrypted data.
????
What I am I missing?
You're missing that the link from the satellite to the ground station
is a completely different link from the link from the Predator. The
system was changed around from the one originally designed because it
turned out that the latency introduced by multiple geosynchronous
satellite links was too high for reliable operation.

Ok, I just did a more thorough investigation based on the original
article in the Wall Street Journal:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126102247889095011.html

as well as how the SkyGrabber software works:

http://www.skygrabber.com/en/skygrabber.php

And I am all but convinced that the problem has nothing to do with
analog links anywhere.

[By the way, I started my career developing wireless narrow-band
transceivers, and I can tell you that there is no way that they are
controlling those drones with analog links, either via the satellite
from remote, or via a ground unit that is closer to the drone. The
drones would have all crashed by now.]

Apparently, the link from Satellite to Predator is digital and follows
a standard format for such links, which the SkyGrabber software is
familiar with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_Internet_access

The Wikipedia article does not say what modulation scheme is used, but
QPSK seems to be popular:

http://www.satsig.net/ivsatcos.htm

The SkyGrabber site implies it works with DVB-S and DVB-S2 standards. I
think it's dumb to use a standardized air interface on things you want
to be very secure for warfighting, but that's just me.

Because satellite links are inherently power limited the modulations
tend to be low, with QPSK being arguably the most common. 8-PSK is used
sometimes, and DVB-S2 has some weird stuff in it IIRC, but nothing very
high-order.

In any case, the link from drone to satellite is digital, and link
from satellite to ground station is almost certainly digital, as it
would make no sense at all to decode a digital bit stream arriving
from the drone into the satellite, decode that bitstream, convert it
to analog, then send it back to earth in some analog format, which
would be hopelessly inefficient in so many ways.

Also, the military itself implys in the WSJ article that they have
know about this for a while and simply goofed.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

--
Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms
Abineau Communications
http://www.abineau.com

 

[Eric Jacobsen]

On 12/18/2009 1:55 AM, Steve Pope wrote:

Le Chaud Lapin<jaibuduvin@gmail.com> wrote:

It should be noted that decrypting in non-real time, right now, in
December, 2009, is impossible using 256-bit AES.

WTF are you talking about?

Steve

I think he meant cracking it in real time. Certainly decryption in
real-time isn't a big deal. Why any of it would be a problem in
non-real time is anybody's guess.

--
Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms
Abineau Communications
http://www.abineau.com

 

[Fred Abse]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:17:54 -0500, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 01:08:09 -0800, Fred Abse
excretatauris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 02:27:19 +0000, Eeyore wrote:

DaveC wrote:
The coil in an industrial electromagnetic clutch (connecting the flywheel to
the drive mechanism) has gone open-circuit. So it is being rewound by a motor
rewind shop.

I was just informed that the original wire was about 12 ga. (maybe slightly
larger; original was metric) but it was rewound using 10 ga.

Why do Americans persist in using stupid AWG that no-one else in the
world uses except to entertain you ?

Have you never heard of mm^2 ?

Metric magnet wire (enameled copper wire to you) is usually specced in
diameter, rather than cross sectional area.

How do you know what the standard diameters are?

With AWG, you know the "next size up" (number--) and the "next common
size up" (next even number down)

To double the diameter, you go down by about 6 AWG sizes.
To halve the resistance you go down by about 3 AWG sizes.

I really don't see much reason to ever change from the AWG system.

Neither do I. However, Eurocrap is cropping up all over, plus Japanese and
Chinese.

I've never needed sizes below 0.5mm dia. Above that, steps of
0.5mm seem to be readily available.

It's easier working with diameter when setting pitch on winding machines,
or calculating stator slot fill. I guess that's why metricrats use
diameter for magnet wire, not square millimeters like for cable.

I still use circular mils sometimes.

--
"Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference
is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it."
(Stephen Leacock)

 

[Le Chaud Lapin]

On Dec 18, 10:46 am, David Schwartz <dav...@webmaster.com> wrote:

On Dec 17, 10:54 pm, Le Chaud Lapin <jaibudu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Apparently, the link from Satellite to Predator is digital and follows
a standard format for such links, which the SkyGrabber software is
familiar with:

Where did you find something that says that the video link to the
Predator is the one that's being grabbed?

Haven't found anything. All the articles on the subject are too vague.
They are merely regurgitations of what the WSJ wrote, without any
reliable specifics.

In any case, the link from drone to satellite is digital, and link
from satellite to ground station is almost certainly digital, as it
would make no sense at all to decode a digital bit stream arriving
from the drone into the satellite, decode that bitstream, convert it
to analog, then send it back to earth in some analog format, which
would be hopelessly inefficient in so many ways.

It is my understanding that it was the link to the ground station that
was digital and being intercepted, not the link from the Predator. If
you can point to some reliable source that says otherwise, let me
know. I'll be mightily surprised.

I took a quick look, and did not find any specifics, but once the
information is digital, it is a done deal, as the only excuses
remaining would be:

1. Not enough power for cipher operations.
2. Overhead of padding consumes too much bandwidth for data link.

We know it is not #1, because a $100 PDA can easily do 128-bit
symmetric cipher at reasonable rate for Wi-Fi link without killing the
battery, which I tried several years ago.

We know that it is definitely not #2, because one video frame, at even
low-res black-and white (not even grayscal) would swamp the 16-byte
padding required for typical 128-bit symmetric block ciphers.

I think DARPA simply got lazy and punted on this one.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 01:41:39 -0800, Jon Kirwan
<jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 00:58:58 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

On Dec 18, 2:19 am, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

snip

Design any interesting circuits lately?

John's regular get out of jail free card, usually played after a long
post explaining why he is free to post denialist nonsense, while the
people who respond to point out that he doesn't know what he is
talking about should confine themselves to electronics.

I've been around the group long enough to have seen this card played
by John, time and time again. It's a highly predictable knee-jerk,
now. Rather than deal with his own overflowing ignorance.

Jon

Sloman is probably the single most-frequent poster to this group and
is literally 99% off-topic. And virtually every one of his posts
contains pompous insults. He is never helpful, never amusing, never
hopeful, never has ideas; he hasn't done interesting electronics in
decades and probably never will again.

Pick your friends as you will.

John

 

[JosephKK]

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:51:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:52:21 -0700) it happened "Paul Hovnanian
P.E." <paul@hovnanian.com> wrote in <4B216D95.F54D538B@hovnanian.com>:

Everyone stare at the spiral on the sky over Norway and chant, "AGW is
real. AGW is real...."

--
Paul Hovnanian mailtoaul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
I could get a new lease on life but I need the first and last month
in advance.

It could be a new Russian weapon....
Black hole bomb.
?
Anonymous.

We all know what black holes politicians heads are in.

 

[JosephKK]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:46:38 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:
Found on rec.crafts.metalworking, not crossposted because we all know what
happens when I do that!
----
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:13:15 -0600, S. Caro wrote:
Cliff wrote:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j9MrjlmXzORMlHNvYfE9yAlgtiBwD9CGDL281
[
1,700 UK scientists back climate science (AP) - 3 hours ago

LONDON - Over 1,700 scientists in Britain have signed a statement
defending the evidence for human-made climate change in the wake of
hacked e-mails that emboldened climate skeptics. ....

Yea, but MY scientists are better than YOUR scientists.

--Over 31,000 U.S. scientists deny man-made global warming--

http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0508/0508gwpetition.htm
----

Cheers!
Rich


Is this a matter that's decided by a majority vote?

Sylvia.

That is what the politicians are trying to make it. Did you not note the lack of scientists
at the Copenhagen meeting?

 

[Mark]

Passing encrypted video over a satellite network built for unencrypted
analog video is not a trivial challenge. As far as I know, there
exists no scheme to do this that has not been broken already. The
problem is that encryption works partly by diffusing information so
that no part of the output looks like any part of the input. The
satellite link is filled with errors and distortion that have to be
contained to retain adequate video quality.

DS

um,, is that why General Instrument was able to do it did it 15 years
ago for HBO?

Mark

They didn't do the video, just the audio. Video was a very simple
inversion technique, that was trivial to break. The audio was DES (so
they said) encrypted, but there were several holes in the system that
rendered it a bit less secure.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That was Videocypher, I'm talking about DigiCypher, which was
transmitted over "analog" satellite transponders...

Mark

 

[Le Chaud Lapin]

On Dec 18, 11:51 am, "Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

To add more fuel to the fire:http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/12/not-just-drones-militants-can...

IMO the lack of encryption was a failure in management.  I would bet you a
nickel that when the systems were being developed, the contractors said,
"sure, we can add encryption, but it will add years and millions to the
development schedule," and someone made the Executive Decision to skip it..

This is a major problem with many military and commercial contracts today:
Often the people with the high-dollar decision-making authority don't have the
technical background to know if someone pitching them a huge schedule and cost
increase are doing so because what's being asked for really is a Hard Problem
or just because the contractor doesn't happen to be very good in that area.

Or, it could be that

1. The management is technically imcompetent
2. The drones working for them are technically compotent [sorry, could
not resist ]
3. The people holding purse strings at DARPA as not as competent as
they should be.
4. The drones inform management that it "would not be too hard to add
encryption"
5. The management sees an opportunity to stretch the schedule.

After all, management at these contractors are judged not by how well
they hit the bulls-eye, but how much bacon they bring home. They last
thing they want to hear is for one of their own people to say, "We
don't really need $15 million to do this...a team of four of us could
probably have a prototype in a month for $100,000."

One prime contractor that I spoke with during my utterly-depressing
communications with DARPA & Company in 2008 boasted that "a single
individual at DARPA" was solely responsible for giving his group $200
million over 8 years. It was sickening, because the "thing" they were
making was simply pathetic. Not only that, we had a conference call
one day, with three of their Ph.D's at the table, and I could swear
that one of the things they were asking for was a compressor that
could magically compress any data. I gently reminded them that there
was no such thing, as well as the fact that it was was not even the
topic on the agenda, and they kept coming back to it..."If you could
find a way to compress our already-compressed data...we might be able
to work with you." I tried to tell them that there was a limit beyond
which it is theoretically and provably impossible, but they didn't
want to hear that.

They have been using the same Microsoft Powerpoint slides to sell and
resell the same piece of wood to DARPA and appropriations committees.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jim Yanik wrote:

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com/Snicker
wrote in news:ch7ni5ptab13kvhcr28uo31qb03l86685d@4ax.com:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:02:05 -0600, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov
wrote:

krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in
news:t6pli5taujnq2pqp7rqh084udrbgfoomhs@4ax.com:

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:05:15 -0800 (PST), Le Chaud Lapin
jaibuduvin@gmail.com> wrote:

On Dec 17, 7:44 pm, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
What do you mean "get the encryption right"? I understood that
there was no encryption at all.

I just assumed that, since it is the US military, employing a drone
to do semi-stealth reconnaisance, that a basic requirement would be
that young kids who probably earn < $100/month should not be able to
intercept the stealth video. My bad.

Maybe they should leave it as it is. That way, the terrorists could
put it up on YouTube. Maybe there is a Hollywood show in it...

Perhaps it was intentional. They can sell electronics to the
terrorists. Who knows what backdoors lurk...

"So You Think You Can Out-Run A Hell-Fire Missile."

"Smile! You're on Candid Camera!"


the US now has a very small Air-Ground Missile in development;it's
called Spike(not the Israeli Spike ATGM),and is 2 ft long,5.3 lb total
and has a 1 lb warhead,electro-optical guidance.It's intended to take
out unarmored/lightly armored vehicles or single rooms in buildings
and not cause a lot of collateral damage.
A soldier can carry three missiles and launcher,and it can also be
carried on the drones.

it's like a small model rocket.

http://defense-update.com/products/s/spike_laser.htm

That's the sort of thing I recommend to stop "hot pursuit"
situations...

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/321871

Stop on an officer's order or we make you stop ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Heck,-I- want a launch rail on MY car.

Tired of the bad drivers on the OBT?


--
Offworld checks no longer accepted!

 

[Joel Koltner]

Thanks a good discussion, Le Chaud, but I have a somewhat less pessimistic
view on it all. It's not "all" driven by self-preseveration or ego -- plenty
of people really are trying to do the best job they can, and are confident
enough in their abilities to not have to worry about politics too much. Of
course, there are also people who are doing the best job they can and just
aren't good enough to do what they've been tasked with very well, but that's a
managerial problem again.

There will always be some costs involved due to imperfections in humans, and I
believe that a lot of what drives politics in the world is just how much
imperfection we, as a society, are willing to accept in any given area. Of
course, in the case at hand, unless there's a lot of mitigating circumstances
that haven't been revealed, it certanily *appears* that not using an encrypted
video signal is a larger imperfection than anyone should consider acceptable!

---Joel

 

[Le Chaud Lapin]

On Dec 18, 5:18 am, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:

Everytime one thinks developers of systems know what they're doing,
something like this comes out, and one realises that they didn't.

I have spent an some time pondering the process that yields this
result, and each time I arrive at the conclusion: It is all driven by
self-preservation and/or ego.

Deceit and manipulation are the tools that are employed by those who
are trying to self-preserve or protect their egos.

Let's take aconcrete example:

Thomas Edison.

He was one of the first promiment thinkers to enter the world of DARPA-
like organizations. Actually, it was they Naval Consulting Board,
precursor to Navy Research Laboratory. If you read the blurb at NRL's
site about their relationship with Thomas Edison:

http://www.nrl.navy.mil/content.php?P=HISTVISION

.... it gives the appearance than Thomas Edison, along with its
sightful director, lead breakthroughs in technology, yada, yada...It's
crap.

So many people, in all walks of life, public and private, really,
really, want to believe that this is how the comos works...that an
insightful business leader gathers superbright people into a think-
thank to realize revolutionary breakthroughs while being unfettered by
the mundane.

The truth is quite different.

Even at the most promiment, most noble of institutions, intellectual
capital has real and signifcant value, and people fight for it,
sometimes viciously. They cheat, lie, steal, etc. for it. The best
recent example of The Establishment being absolutely incensed by an
individual who "not only had his cake but ate it too" by shrewdly
climbing over the walls of the petri dish and working in isolation
until he got the junk,, is Griogori Perelman of Poincaré's Conjecture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman

There are quite a few people who would love to have taken some credit
for his work, but cannot, because he preempted all the typical means
by which the rapacious might have preyed upon him.

But getting back to NRL, what they do not mention in their rosy
portrayal of their relationship with Thomas Edison was that, in the
end, it was toxic.

1. They never used a single invention of his that he made at NRL while
he was there.
2. He was utterly disgusted with them after a while, and quit, and
told both his wife, as well as wrote about it in public.

Why leave this part out? Why is it ok to invoke the prestige of his
association, but not mention that the guy was utterly disgusted with
you and denigrated you in public?

This is what goes on with DoD everyday. They hide the truth, twist the
truth, euphemize damning truths that leak ("we're working on it -
right - you *already* worked on it)...and the cost for getting away
with this game: $100US billion / year for the US taxpayer.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

 

[JosephKK]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 07:01:42 -0800, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
<SNIP>

I think I'll play with some latching relays today. I need to store
enough energy in enough capacitors to have an FPGA set the states of
75 relays *after* a power failure. About 12 volts, 1.5 amps for around
6 milliseconds should do it.

John

With that many latching relays no reasonable capacitor will hold up if
you try to switch them all at the same time. I found out the hard way.
I had to sequence them. Then again i only had room for 4000 uF per 10
relays. My reset drive was only 0.5 A for 75 ms per relay for
reliable switching. So i drove the reset totally sequentially. I could
pull the power plug and punch reset in that order and reliably get reset.
80 relays at 75 ms per comes out to some 600 ms. Not an unreasonable power
supply hold up for 25 to 30 years ago.

 

[Raveninghorde]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:39:46 +0000 (UTC), don@manx.misty.com (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In <lajii5l9va045795kac17edrb4gjbrvlam@4ax.com>, Raveninghorde wrote,
edited-for-space-by-me:

SNIP everything before following

Now the Russians are accusing the Hadley Centre of cherry picking only
the warm stations from Russia.

http://en.rian.ru/papers/20091216/157260660.html

/quote

Climategate has already affected Russia. On Tuesday, the Moscow-based
Institute of Economic Analysis (IEA) issued a report claiming that the
Hadley Center for Climate Change based at the headquarters of the
British Meteorological Office in Exeter (Devon, England) had probably
tampered with Russian-climate data.

The IEA believes that Russian meteorological-station data did not
substantiate the anthropogenic global-warming theory.

Analysts say Russian meteorological stations cover most of the
country's territory, and that the Hadley Center had used data
submitted by only 25% of such stations in its reports.

Over 40% of Russian territory was not included in global-temperature
calculations for some other reasons, rather than the lack of
meteorological stations and observations.

The data of stations located in areas not listed in the Hadley Climate
Research Unit Temperature UK (HadCRUT) survey often does not show any
substantial warming in the late 20th century and the early 21st
century.

The HadCRUT database includes specific stations providing incomplete
data and highlighting the global-warming process, rather than stations
facilitating uninterrupted observations.

On the whole, climatologists use the incomplete findings of
meteorological stations far more often than those providing complete
observations.

IEA analysts say climatologists use the data of stations located in
large populated centers that are influenced by the urban-warming
effect more frequently than the correct data of remote stations.

The scale of global warming was exaggerated due to temperature
distortions for Russia accounting for 12.5% of the world's land mass.
The IEA said it was necessary to recalculate all global-temperature
data in order to assess the scale of such exaggeration.

There are the two major interpretations of MSU/AMSU satellite data for
temperature change and trend thereof. (Good for starting with the
beginning of 1979.)

I am aware of a color-coded map of the world for decadal trend by one of
these two outfits. The other (UAH) as of end of 2008 had global decadal
trend over the past 30 complete years .029 degree C per decade less than
this one (RSS) has.

I seem to think that if we look at 1979-onward data, we can see how
well or how poorly the results from data gathered by the eyes in the sky
correlate with surface station data.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

There's a challange for the alarmists. Prove that the Russians are
wrong using satelllite data since 1979.

 

[JosephKK]

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 00:24:38 +0000, Raveninghorde <raveninghorde@invalid> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 15:53:31 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

SNIP


This would be the insult part of your bluster-and-insult contribution.
Your contributions about the scientific status of anthropogenic global
warming is - of course - the bluster, since you seem to collect it all
from denialist web-sites, rather than coming up with original
nonsense.

Sheesh. This is an engineering group. Engineers can't afford to be
sloppy like climate scientists. They can't afford the sort of politics
seen with the CRU/realclimate team.

Engineers have to come up with working solutions. There are no excuses
for making mistakes. If you are wrong you fess up and fix it.

This makes good engineers sceptical by nature. If you ain't then you
get caught out in weeks or months when customers scream and production
grinds to a halt and people don't get paid.

On the other hand you claim authority for climate scientists yet they
have no responsibilty for the outcome of their work.

It is not our job to come up with original ideas in climate science,
the scientists get paid for that. Most of us in this group have enough
to do coming up with the original work we do every day.

However we know enough to look at data and see whether it stacks up or
not. Climate science doesn't stack up.

Nice and clean.