Driver to drive?

[pyotr filipivich]

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch <gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> on
or about Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:41:29 -0700 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Nonsense. If you hire a 'pro' chances are they make even more
mistakes. In this case the owner is to blame. He should have hired
someone from the company that sells the CNC machines to connect them
properly to the mains.

If a proper electrician does not know how to hook up a machine, he is
not a proper electrician.

Pro work is usually insured.

Im not. Nor am I licensed. Yet I do the electrical work for many
clients. And my business cards indicate that Im neither.

Electricity is like water: if it 'flows' in, it has to 'flow' out.
Unlike water, though, it will take short cuts "out of the pipe".

It has to do with how good you are, and that they know it.

That it always has. Even if you have the blessing of the Treasury
Wizards.

tschus
pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

 

[Proteus IIV]

On Jul 5, 3:43 am, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<Zarathus...@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:40:18 -0700, John E. <incogn...@xbjcd.com> wrote:
I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.

A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
them.

He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.

Owner throws the switch, all works fine.

The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
controller PCB to the tune of $4000.

Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
power supply were set for 220.

What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?

What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
either of the players or their actions.

Thanks.

  The "electrician" is culpable as it was found that the wiring was to
blame.  That proof alone means that he would be culpable, regardless of
his credentials, or lack thereof.

  The owner should bear some blame (as in be lenient in court) for trying
to economize costs in the wrong area (he should have paid the licensed
and insured electrician).

  Also knowing how to hook up systems well, and knowing how to do a
proper requirements analysis are two different things and define some of
the differences between the grunt pulling the wires and the supervisor
laying out the plan and making sure that the machines and their power
sources are matched.  Since a failure mode did occur,  it would be
improper not to make a negative statement about the character of the
installer.

  Also, though it was not a lack of intelligence that compelled the owner
to choose the riskier path, it does indicate a lack of wisdom, which I am
sure has received a boost due to these events already.

  PS Cross-posting is lame.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

ZARA ZARA ZARA

YOU SILLY FUCKTARDY QUEER
IT IS NOT THE ELECTRICIANS FUALT YOU TROLL
YOPU ARE JUST LOOKING TO GET A RISE FROM THE LINEMEN IN THE GROUP

HE SUPPLIED A QUISCENT AND UPDATED ELECTRICAL SUPPLY

THE OWNER IS THE ONLY ONE AT FAULT AND THE ONE THAT WILL HAVE TO PAY
FOR HIS MISTAKE AND GET REGULATED UPDATED EQUIPMENT THAT MATCHES HIS
NEWLY UPDATED QUISCENT ELECTRICAL SYSTEM

YOU COXUCKER STICK TO HARASSING YOUR UITTLE WEBTVTARDS AND YOUR
TROLLOPING FAGGOTY ISP FRIENDS


I AM PROTEUS

 

[pyotr filipivich]

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch <gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> on
or about Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:46:10 -0700 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

You may be a professional something, but 'professional electrician'
will not be the title.

Nor have I ever made that claim.

So am I just a "handyman"?

To what level?

Let's poll the girlfriends ... hmmm, even the bull dyke from
Encino says you're pretty useful, and restful for the eyes. Go figah!


tschus
pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Archimedes' Lever wrote:

[snip]

What idiot updates their news or mail client to track another poster
anyway? The guy is an idiot. His mom letting him onto a computer was
also a "procedure of several steps".

This thread started over on rec.audio.pro. Does that answer your
question?

--
Paul Hovnanian mailtoaul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Grant me the strength to change what I can, the ability to accept
what I can't, and the incapacity to tell the difference."
-- Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes)

 

[SteveB]

"StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt" <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote in message
news:t4a2559rac540lhoq8vjsa9grge04m21mk@4ax.com...

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:52:36 -0700, Gunner Asch
gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:39:41 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 11:27:07 -0500, "Greg O" <goo1959@hotmail.com> wrote:


Maybe, maybe not. My thoughts are the equipment was correctly wired, but
not
set up properly.


I cannot believe the remarks made by some in Usenet.

Contradict yourself within a single sentence often, idiot?

actually...from a Real World point of view..Greg makes a lot of sense.


You're an idiot that performs unlicensed works, and thinks it is OK to
do so.

Nothing you claim has ANY credence whatsoever.

I'm sorry. Was I drunk or absent the day you were put in charge?

Steve

 

[SteveB]

"StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt" <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote in message
news:659255dumbgei94ahfoandvvisecgavukq@4ax.com...

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:57:12 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

Irrelevant to the real world, DimBulb. 220V is so 1950s.


Yet the taps are still made available on equipment, you idiot. That is
also what may have caused to over-voltage condition, IDIOT. Improper tap
selection does cause failure modes.

You are so 'never was'.

And you are so "don't have a fucking clue, but really know it all, pass me
the bong."

 

[SteveB]

"StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt" <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote in message
news:ti9255tro4uke7ucibh4057936ig24pb9s@4ax.com...

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:00:13 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


Has anyone ever seen a 1950s CNC machine?

You fucking retards!

Most vocational schools use second hand machinery. Many have machines
that old in them. So do many shops, you retarded, knows less than
nothing twit.

Sounds to me like a second year newbie who thinks he's BTDT on everything,
and is set out to set Usenet and all the people with decades of experience
straight.

Use less "retards" and "twits" and more facts if you want to gain any ground
here, Sparky. Oh, wait, can't call you that until you pass the boards.

Well, then, cub ....................

 

[Harold and Susan Vordos]

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote in message
news:9ra4m.41743$IU6.38741@newsfe05.iad...

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 07:50:13 GMT, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
vordos@tds.net> wrote:


"StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt" <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote in
message news:2bm055h02mhs5trp9geg6dmmvl3ssgo60o@4ax.com...
snip----

The "electrician" is culpable as it was found that the wiring was to
blame. That proof alone means that he would be culpable, regardless of
his credentials, or lack thereof.

Nonsense.


Nonsense? Take your retarded queries elsewhere, crossposting, idiot,
troll fucktard.

Up yours, moron. That, or maybe you can tell somebody that gives a shit.
You obviously have me confused with someone that does.

Harold

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:30:57 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch <gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> on
or about Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:46:10 -0700 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

You may be a professional something, but 'professional electrician'
will not be the title.

Nor have I ever made that claim.

So am I just a "handyman"?

To what level?

Let's poll the girlfriends ... hmmm, even the bull dyke from
Encino says you're pretty useful, and restful for the eyes. Go figah!


Well thank you Pardner...blush!!

Though dogs and litle children find me kindly...no one has ever called
me restful to the eyes afore....

You thilly savage you!

tschus
pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:22:36 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 07:50:13 GMT, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
vordos@tds.net> wrote:


"StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt" <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote in message
news:2bm055h02mhs5trp9geg6dmmvl3ssgo60o@4ax.com...
snip----

The "electrician" is culpable as it was found that the wiring was to
blame. That proof alone means that he would be culpable, regardless of
his credentials, or lack thereof.

Nonsense.


Nonsense? Take your retarded queries elsewhere, crossposting, idiot,
troll fucktard.


The voltage at the panel has nothing to do with the wireman. It's
a function of the transformer at the pole. The voltage in my shop, wired
with three phase delta, is also upwards of 245 volts.


When a man wires up a machine, it is his responsibility to make sure
that the machine he is connecting to power is set up for the voltage he
is providing to it.

The only way a wireman could be responsible is if the panel was wired three
phase delta, with a high leg, and he had assigned the high leg to one of the
120 volt circuits, yielding 208 or more volts.


He is responsible because he did not perform the requirements analysis.


The voltage declared indicates that the service is, indeed, delta.



Doesn't matter. The device to be powered must not be wired up with an
inappropriate feed, or fail to be set up to take the feed that is
provided.
Well obviously you don't know much about the standards of electrical
codes, labeling and so on.
245V is very normal..

I never said it wasn't.

Hooking up 245 volts on the 220V tap, however, is an error on the
installer's part.

I would be a little more worried about voltages running on the
low side in shops like that.

The discussion is about proper hook ups and improper hookups, not what
you think one needs to worry about or not.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:02:11 -0700 (PDT), osr@uakron.edu wrote:

No one has ever answered my question, was he hooking up to a junction
box, pigtail, or direct to the taps?

Any responsible installer would not merely hookup to pigtails or
ANYTHING without determining the proper attachment manner.
So no matter what, an examination of the tap selection configuration on
ANY machine that has such taps IS THE RESPONSIBILITY of the installer.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:12:13 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:28:50 GMT, nico@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:


A CNC machine is something different than a light bulb. Few
electricians know more than how to connect a light bulb and outlets.
Besides, the story doesn't tell whether the machine has a permanent
mains connection or is connected by a cord.


I know of zero CNC machines that operate from a line cord.
And what is your definition of a line cord?

You've never seen 3 Wire with ground, plugs connected to cords on
electrical equipment?

Not 5kW machinery, no. D'oh!

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:26:17 -0400, William Bagwell
<use-other@s.this.one.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:12:04 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:28:50 GMT, nico@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:


A CNC machine is something different than a light bulb. Few
electricians know more than how to connect a light bulb and outlets.
Besides, the story doesn't tell whether the machine has a permanent
mains connection or is connected by a cord.

I know of zero CNC machines that operate from a line cord.

While a router is not as glamorous as a lathe or mill, I do believe they are
still considered a machine. Controlled via CNC makes them <gasp> a CNC
machine...

And yes, many of them have cords with plugs. Need pictures?

A little printer that cuts out stickers is technically a "CNC Machine"
as well.

The term usually refers to much larger load devices, not your Sears
sign router. Also, a good hint was that he had to have wiring ran for
it.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:28:29 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:11:18 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:57:12 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

Irrelevant to the real world, DimBulb. 220V is so 1950s.


Yet the taps are still made available on equipment, you idiot. That is
also what may have caused to over-voltage condition, IDIOT. Improper tap
selection does cause failure modes.

Trying to move the goal posts again, Dimbulb? The fact is that there
is no 220V service, so 245V is not 11% OV as you said it was.

It is 11.4% above the selected tap voltage though, you total fucking
retard.

You are so 'never was'.

Tell us, how hard is it to be always wrong, AlwaysWrong?

You are incorrect, KeithStain. You are such a stain on the group.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:30:37 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:04:07 -0500, RoyJ <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote:


Assuming a nominal 240VAC supply, 245V is in no way "not correct" -- it's only
about a 2% overvoltage.

And since there is likely no load in shop when the install was taking
place, the 245 would be a higher than normal reading.


You're nuts. Maybe at the end of a 100 yard long run. Maybe.

There is no reason, however, for the entire feed to a building to sag
that far between loaded and unloaded.
it's most likely the feed to the building is 480/460 and a transformer
is being used.
I don't know to many electric companies that will supply 240 3 phase
any more.

I'd be willing to bet that the transformer came along with the move and
that being the case, yes, it can sag abit when other equipment get going
because I can't picture a huge xformer in use here.


More guess as you go bullshit.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 00:41:58 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <slrnh51oi5.hek.gsm@cable.mendelson.com>, gsm@mendelson.com wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
You're missing the point. This has nothing to do with the voltage supplied
by the utility. The utility doesn't supply 220V or 240V or whatever. They
supply (for example) 4KV. A transformer at the point of service reduces that
to 220V, or 240V, or whatever. Different transformers connected to the *same*
4KV primary voltage could easily produce different secondary voltages.

No, I'm not. When I lived in the US, (PECO) the electric company sold
me 240 volt 2 phase electricity. It was nominaly 127 volts, but often
dropped down during times of high usage.

They did not supply or sell me 4kv volts, or anything else.

Yes, I'm afraid you are missing the point. Different locations, even though
attached to the same local grid, may have different supply voltages because
they are receiving those supplies through different transformers.

It can be practically guaranteed to be such.

Exact same turns count, same construction transformers rarely ever
operate exactly the same. There are just too many places for slight
differences to find their way in.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 18:06:48 -0700, Gunner Asch
<gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

He must not get out much....shrug.

You two are Usenet retards for being presumptuous little adolescent
acting twits. But we already knew that about you both.

And in most of California..that means far far different requirements
..legally.. than does hardwiring.

Gunner

California uses the NEC, you fucking retard.

Of course it is different. And it isn't "most of California" It is ALL
of Cali. you retarded twit.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:28:25 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

You are in the dark boy..

You're a goddamned retard, boy.

Our company hires licensed Electricians for basic things when our
electrical staff are to busy to perform the job,

Good for you, dumbfuck.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 22:01:06 -0500, "Greg O" <goo1959@hotmail.com> wrote:

But, the typical electrician looks at the rating plate, pulls the
appropriate wire, then walks away from the equipment.

Pretty goddamned stupid. Also pretty stupid to saddle only electricians
with that flaw.

Casual behavior in the power industry usually does not go unpunished at
some point.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 22:13:38 -0500, "Greg O" <goo1959@hotmail.com> wrote:

Have you considered that it is very possible to run the wire to the
equipment all to local code, NEC most likely, but the machine itself was not
setup to accept what was run to it??

When you say "run the wire to it", that means to me that it was attached
or as the industry refers to it, terminated at both ends. If that is the
case, then the installer is responsible to be sure that both terminations
are the right terminations. That includes proper tap selection by the
installer of the feed.