Driver to drive?

[Jamie]

Nico Coesel wrote:

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:


On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:40:18 -0700, John E. <incognito@xbjcd.com> wrote:


I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.

A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
them.

He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.

Owner throws the switch, all works fine.

The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
controller PCB to the tune of $4000.

Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
power supply were set for 220.

What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?

What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
either of the players or their actions.

Thanks.

The "electrician" is culpable as it was found that the wiring was to
blame. That proof alone means that he would be culpable, regardless of
his credentials, or lack thereof.

The owner should bear some blame (as in be lenient in court) for trying
to economize costs in the wrong area (he should have paid the licensed
and insured electrician).


Nonsense. If you hire a 'pro' chances are they make even more
mistakes. In this case the owner is to blame. He should have hired
someone from the company that sells the CNC machines to connect them
properly to the mains.

Oh sure,

$10k bill.

$1.0 to look at it, $9999 to know what to look at..

Please people, this simply looks like some one trying to collect on a
repair bill at some one else's expense.

I think we have enough lawyers already hard at work at destroying
peoples life's.

I feel sorry for the Electrician.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 11:54:29 -0700, Fred Abse
<excretatauris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:18:28 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

I'm in Truckee

Doing /done the Rubicon Trail, like you threatened?

Not yet; maybe in August.

We were walking around the Rainbow Bridge and decided to hike up to
the top of the China Wall, between a couple of tunnels and snow sheds
of the original Transcontinental Railroad. It's a nice short steep
hike over smooth stepped glacial-looking rocks, with some
3000-year-old petroglyphs here and there. Anyhow, when we got to the
top, there were a couple of guys in Jeeps. Turns out that you can
quasi-legally enter the tunnels near Sugar Bowl and drive through. One
of them is, I think, about 1600 feet long. The Brat will bring up her
Jeep in a weekend or two and we'll try it.

ftp://66.117.156.8/CW_Donner_Lake.jpg

ftp://66.117.156.8/CW_Tunnel.jpg

ftp://66.117.156.8/CW_sign.jpg

ftp://66.117.156.8/CW_snow_shed.jpg

ftp://66.117.156.8/CW_wall.jpg

It's a "gravity wall" constructed for the roadbed by hand, from
natural uncut rocks, no cement.

The road is Donner Pass Road, old California route 40, a section of
the original Lincoln Highway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Highway


Bronze marker courtesy E Clampus Vitus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_Clampus_Vitus

Cool stuff.

John

 

[Jamie]

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 07:50:13 GMT, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
vordos@tds.net> wrote:


"StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt" <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote in message
news:2bm055h02mhs5trp9geg6dmmvl3ssgo60o@4ax.com...
snip----

The "electrician" is culpable as it was found that the wiring was to
blame. That proof alone means that he would be culpable, regardless of
his credentials, or lack thereof.

Nonsense.


Nonsense? Take your retarded queries elsewhere, crossposting, idiot,
troll fucktard.


The voltage at the panel has nothing to do with the wireman. It's
a function of the transformer at the pole. The voltage in my shop, wired
with three phase delta, is also upwards of 245 volts.


When a man wires up a machine, it is his responsibility to make sure
that the machine he is connecting to power is set up for the voltage he
is providing to it.

The only way a wireman could be responsible is if the panel was wired three
phase delta, with a high leg, and he had assigned the high leg to one of the
120 volt circuits, yielding 208 or more volts.


He is responsible because he did not perform the requirements analysis.


The voltage declared indicates that the service is, indeed, delta.



Doesn't matter. The device to be powered must not be wired up with an
inappropriate feed, or fail to be set up to take the feed that is
provided.
Well obviously you don't know much about the standards of electrical

codes, labeling and so on.
245V is very normal..

I would be a little more worried about voltages running on the
low side in shops like that.

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:27:33 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:52:36 -0700, Gunner Asch
gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:39:41 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 11:27:07 -0500, "Greg O" <goo1959@hotmail.com> wrote:


Maybe, maybe not. My thoughts are the equipment was correctly wired, but not
set up properly.


I cannot believe the remarks made by some in Usenet.

Contradict yourself within a single sentence often, idiot?

actually...from a Real World point of view..Greg makes a lot of sense.


You're an idiot that performs unlicensed works, and thinks it is OK to
do so.

Unlicensed works? You mean what I do is supposed to be licensed?
Cites?

Nothing you claim has ANY credence whatsoever.

Your denial is noted with utter amusement and gales of laughter.

And utter contempt.

Laugh laugh laugh!

Gunner


"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

 

[Jamie]

Rich. wrote:

"John E." <incognito@xbjcd.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C67607F4002A5A1EB08A39AF@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do
something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?


This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice
to
inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and
such?
And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely
had
informed the owner of the voltage difference?
--
John English


It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is
found to be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal, and there
is a lot of equipment out there that does not have taps. Equipment
without taps could be damaged by this higher than usual voltage.

It is the responsibility of the electrician to make sure the equipment
he is wiring can correctly run on the power being supplied. IMO the
electrician did not do his job correctly.

guess you don't get out much!

 

[Rich.]

"Gunner Asch" <gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:r29255hd4o21ml5ml69f68ikbpk7i96sk0@4ax.com...

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:04:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:


So then what am I? I passed the tests, at one time held a (California)
C7 and C10 license, ( as responsible managing employee for a large
company who before me had NO liceneses), have worked for the past 12 yrs
as a machine shop electrician (with no failures to date), CNC repair
tech and so forth.

However..Ive refused to belong to any union since 1974, when my 6 week
stint as a UAW worker left me cold about unions.

Am I just a "handyman" because I dont belong to a union <spit>?

My business cards indicate that I do electrical (non licensed) as well
as CNC and Machine Tool Repair.

So am I simply a "handyman"?

Inquiring minds really want to know.

Gunner

Yes, you're a glorified handyman...happy? ;-)

Yes you have the knowledge and experience, but as long as you do not hold a
valid license, you can call yourself an electrician, but you cannot call
yourself a licensed electrician. As an unlicensed electrician you cannot
LEGALLY perform ANY electrical work outside of your own single family
residence. BTW, union or not makes no difference, it's state law we're
talking about.

 

[Rich.]

"James Sweet" <jamesrsweet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:h2rabn$d7g$1@news.eternal-september.org...

Depends on where you are. Here in the US, the work has to be inspected by
an inspector, not an electrician. You have to be a licensed electrician to
be hired by most electrical contracting companies, but there is no law
against unlicensed people electrical work. I've replaced electrical
service panels and added circuits for renovations in the homes of quite a
few friends and family members, I'm not licensed, but it was no trouble to
get a permit and have the work inspected when it was complete. Even
licensed electricians have to get their work inspected.

You're fooling yourself. You cannot legally do any electrical work at the
homes of your friends or family. If there is ever an electrical fire at any
building that you did electrical work in...you can kiss your life goodbye.
You can be arrested, tried in a criminal court, and sentenced to prison,
plus sued for everything you own in a civil court. This can happen to you
because it is a crime in any state (as far as I know) for you to do this
work. Liability insurance is not even an option for you because you have to
be licensed to get the insurance in the first place.

 

[rangerssuck]

On Jul 5, 2:50 pm, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<Zarathus...@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 11:31:43 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck

rangerss...@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to muddy it up even further, we recently put a medical device
through CE approval and were advised by the examiner that our label
should read "110/240", and that's the label we passed with.

 CE?  I am surprised that they did not want it to read "95 - 265 VAC"

  That is what most CE equipment works at.

  It makes a product that barely works in Japan's 90V realm, and then
only on some products.

 I had to do a redesign to insure that a production printer (supply)would
be marketable/functional in Japanese geographical/voltage markets.

Note: That was a slash, not a dash. This was not a "universal input",
it was a dual-voltage device, with a 2:1 switchable primary. I was
surprised that they didn't want 110/220 or 120/240 or 115/230. Nope,
they insisted on 110/240. Go figure.

 

[Jamie]

Leo Lichtman wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote: (clip) That said, though.... any device designed for
220V should be able to handle

245V.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Years ago when household appliances ran on 110 volts, we had 220. Since
then, voltage from neutral to either side rose to about 120, and voltage
across both side rose to 240. For some reason we still talk about 220 as
though it were double 120. What I'm getting at is that systems are no
longer designed for 220--it's 240, so the discrepancy is only 5 volts, and
that's trivial.

I'm guessing that the failure was due to some totally different cause, not
an error in line voltage.


I'm glad to see that some one here knows what is going on..

There is one thing here that hasn't been brought to light and if this
is pursuing to a legal battle, it most likely will not be, and that is,
what are/were the other optional voltage selections on the control
transformer?

My guess is, 440.. which of course, would blow this whole thing out of
the water.

 

[john]

Rich. wrote:

"Gunner Asch" <gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:r29255hd4o21ml5ml69f68ikbpk7i96sk0@4ax.com...

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:04:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:


So then what am I? I passed the tests, at one time held a (California)
C7 and C10 license, ( as responsible managing employee for a large
company who before me had NO liceneses), have worked for the past 12 yrs
as a machine shop electrician (with no failures to date), CNC repair
tech and so forth.

However..Ive refused to belong to any union since 1974, when my 6 week
stint as a UAW worker left me cold about unions.

Am I just a "handyman" because I dont belong to a union <spit>?

My business cards indicate that I do electrical (non licensed) as well
as CNC and Machine Tool Repair.

So am I simply a "handyman"?

Inquiring minds really want to know.

Gunner


Yes, you're a glorified handyman...happy? ;-)

Yes you have the knowledge and experience, but as long as you do not
hold a valid license, you can call yourself an electrician, but you
cannot call yourself a licensed electrician. As an unlicensed
electrician you cannot LEGALLY perform ANY electrical work outside of
your own single family residence. BTW, union or not makes no difference,
it's state law we're talking about.

Every state has a set of laws for that state. Each state has its own
requirements.

Licensed electrician does not mean qualified electrician. I would not
let most licensed electricians touch any 3 Ř electrical equipment in my
plant.

John

 

[Jamie]

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:28:50 GMT, nico@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:


A CNC machine is something different than a light bulb. Few
electricians know more than how to connect a light bulb and outlets.
Besides, the story doesn't tell whether the machine has a permanent
mains connection or is connected by a cord.


I know of zero CNC machines that operate from a line cord.
And what is your definition of a line cord?

You've never seen 3 Wire with ground, plugs connected to cords on
electrical equipment?

 

[krw]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:00:13 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

krw wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 11:22:34 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:46:59 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:33:28 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:08:59 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <Wg44m.10923$8P7.9233@newsfe21.iad>, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is found to
be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal, and there is a lot of
equipment out there that does not have taps. Equipment without taps could be
damaged by this higher than usual voltage.

Nonsense. 245V = 240V + 2%. That's just not a big deal -- as long as it's a
nominal 240V supply. If the nominal supply is 208V, then yes, that's a huge
problem. But you have no idea what the supply in the building is supposed to
be, so you have no basis for saying that it's "not normal".

It is the responsibility of the electrician to make sure the equipment he is
wiring can correctly run on the power being supplied.

No, it's not, unless there's a contract specifically requiring him to do so.
The electrician's responsibility is to install the circuits specified by the
person who hired him. The one who owns the equipment is responsible for
preparing the specs.

IMO the electrician
did not do his job correctly.

In what way?


220 to 245 is an 11.4% difference.

220V service doesn't exist, DimBulb.

Read the post,idiot. If there are no 220 volt service provisions, why
are there "220 volt taps" on equipment?

Irrelevant to the real world, DimBulb. 220V is so 1950s.


Has anyone ever seen a 1950s CNC machine?

Does a Jaquard loom count? Oh, 1950s, not 1750s. ;-)

 

[Jamie]

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt wrote:

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 11:09:27 -0500, "Greg O" <goo1959@hotmail.com> wrote:


Perhaps you don't work with many electricians.
I work with electricians on a daily basis, and the large majority of them
can run the wire to the machine, outlet, light fixture, what ever, but few
of them have the ability to make sure it is 100% correct for the equipment
powered.


Which makes ALL of them a mere order taker, point to point wireman.

This was not such an installation. If new runs had to be installed,
then the installer, if only a mere electrician, is already in over his
head if he doesn't know about the equipment to be fed power to.
No, actually, the equipment most likely had cords on it that already had

proper plugs that were properly labeled on the twist locks them self's..

You see, these little details are not coming to light here, did the
electrician hard wire the CNC to the service or did he simply supply
a compatible source for the mating plug on the cord attached to the CNC ?

I don't know about a lot of other shops how ever, where we work, all
of our machine shop equipment have twist lock plugs with cords on them and
those that know anything about this, know that they can only be inserted
in the proper receptacle.

In short, different service voltages have specified keyed plugs. If
the CNC already had a plug connected to it, then the data required by
the electrician is on the plug.. and that is as far as the electrician
needs to go with that.

If an incorrect plug is in use that does not match the voltage of the
equipment but may have been used in an area where voltage was upgraded
and receptacles were not changed, then it's the fault of the shop owner
for not spending the cash to correct that.

 

[William Bagwell]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:12:04 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:28:50 GMT, nico@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:


A CNC machine is something different than a light bulb. Few
electricians know more than how to connect a light bulb and outlets.
Besides, the story doesn't tell whether the machine has a permanent
mains connection or is connected by a cord.

I know of zero CNC machines that operate from a line cord.

While a router is not as glamorous as a lathe or mill, I do believe they are
still considered a machine. Controlled via CNC makes them <gasp> a CNC
machine...

And yes, many of them have cords with plugs. Need pictures?
--
William

 

[krw]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:11:18 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:57:12 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

Irrelevant to the real world, DimBulb. 220V is so 1950s.


Yet the taps are still made available on equipment, you idiot. That is
also what may have caused to over-voltage condition, IDIOT. Improper tap
selection does cause failure modes.

Trying to move the goal posts again, Dimbulb? The fact is that there
is no 220V service, so 245V is not 11% OV as you said it was.

You are so 'never was'.

Tell us, how hard is it to be always wrong, AlwaysWrong?

 

[krw]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:11:57 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:57:12 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

AND if there IS such a tap, then the electrician feeding it MUST
examine what tap is being fed. PERIOD.

Different issue, AlwaysWrong.

No. It is precisely the issue in this case, you idiot.

AlwaysWrong, up to his usual competence.

 

[Jamie]

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:04:07 -0500, RoyJ <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote:


Assuming a nominal 240VAC supply, 245V is in no way "not correct" -- it's only
about a 2% overvoltage.

And since there is likely no load in shop when the install was taking
place, the 245 would be a higher than normal reading.


You're nuts. Maybe at the end of a 100 yard long run. Maybe.

There is no reason, however, for the entire feed to a building to sag
that far between loaded and unloaded.
it's most likely the feed to the building is 480/460 and a transformer

is being used.
I don't know to many electric companies that will supply 240 3 phase
any more.

I'd be willing to bet that the transformer came along with the move and
that being the case, yes, it can sag abit when other equipment get going
because I can't picture a huge xformer in use here.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:12:04 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:28:50 GMT, nico@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:


A CNC machine is something different than a light bulb. Few
electricians know more than how to connect a light bulb and outlets.
Besides, the story doesn't tell whether the machine has a permanent
mains connection or is connected by a cord.

I know of zero CNC machines that operate from a line cord.

Then you have been in few CNC shops west of the Mississippi.

Don't waste your time Gunner. Dimbulb is a troll from southern
Califorina who pollutes the electronics and electrical newsgroups. His
Cox Cable IP address puts him somewhere in the San Diego area. He is an
expert on everything, except correct replies.



Here is a list of some of dimbulbs nyms:

Abbey Somebody <abnormal@castlefrankenstein.org>
AnimalMagic <AnimalMagic@petersbackyard.org>
Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLever@InfiniteSeries.Org>
Bart! <B@rt_The_Sheriff_Is_A_Nig**!.org>
Bungalow Bill <BugalowBill@AbbeyRoad.UKCOM>

Capt. Cave Man <ItIsSoEasyACaveManCanDoIt@upyers.org>
ChairmanOfTheBored <RUBored@crackasmile.org>
Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers
<theslipperman@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org>
Corbomite Carrie <Corbomite@maneuver.org>
DarkMatter <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org>



Do I really need to say? <rael@thescree.org>
Dorothy with the Red Shoes on <Dorothy@notinkansas.org>
Dr. Heywood R. Floyd <Heywood@thebarattheendofthemonolith.org>
FatBytestard <FatBytestard@somewheronyourharddrive.org>

FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor <FunkShunPoignter@yermomma.org>
FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor <FunkShunPointer@yermomma.org>
GoldIntermetallicEmbrittlement
<GoldIntermetallicEmbrittlement@youdontknowjack.org>
Hattori Hanzo <OutintheSnow@billsbackyard.org>
Herbert John \Jackie\" Gleason" <BufordTJustice@Texarkanacops.gov>


HiggsField <higgdfield@whutthableapduyoukno.org>
IAmTheSlime <TheSlimeFromYourVideo@oozingacrossyourlivingroomfloor.org>
ItsASecretDummy <secretasianman@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org>
LargeMarge <LargeMarge@thetentwoposition.org>
MadManMoon <TheWholePlanetIsMine@hereandnow.org>

MakeNoAttemptToAdjustYourSet <DoNotAttemptToAdjustYourSet@anytime.org>
MassiveProng@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org
<MassiveProng@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org>
Mr.Eko <ekointhedirt@lostisland.org>
Mr. Haney <mrhaney@thebarattheendofthefarmroad.org>
Mycelium <myceliumgrows@underyourshrooms.org>


Neanderthal <dance@gottafindawomanrighton.org>
Phat Bytestard <PhatBytestard@getinmahharddrive.org>
RoyLFuchs <RoyLFuchs@urfargingicehole.org>
SkyPilot <somewhere@theedgeofspace.org>
SomeKindOfWonderful
<SomeKindOfWonderful@allthegirlsintheworldbeware.org>

SoothSayer <SaySooth@TheMonastery.org>
Spurious Response <SpuriousResponse@cleansignal.org>
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org>
Sum Ting Wong
<SumTingWong@thebarattheendoftheVenusianLightnigBoltmonolith.org>
SuspendedInGaffa <suspendedingaffa@kateshouse.org>


The Great Attractor
<SuperM@ssiveBlackHoleAtTheCenterOfTheMilkyWayGalaxy.org>
TheGlimmerMan <justaglimmer@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org>
TheKraken <ReachUpandSuckYouDowntotheDepths@yup.org>
The Last Mimsy <mimsy@TheOtherSideoftheLookingGlass.org>
TheQuickBrownFox <thequickbrownfox@overthelazydog.org>

TutAmongUs@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org
<TutAmongUs@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org>
UltimatePatriot <UltimatePatriot@thebestcountry.org>
UpGrade <UpGrade@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org>
ValleyGirl <LuvYerNailz@LikeIWouldGiveIt.Comeon>
WallyWallWhackr <wallywallwhackr@thematrixattheendofthemushroomstem.org>




DarkSucker <DarkSucker@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org>
Kai <kai@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org>
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

 

[Jamie]

ehsjr wrote:

John E. wrote:

I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.


BZZZT! Danger Will Robinson!

Before offering your opinion, examine what *you* stand to
gain/lose.

The "sensitive situation" could be a bucket of rattlesnakes,
and your participation might direct some of those snakes
your way.

Someone is looking at you as the "expert" whose opinion
carries weight in his/her mind. Your opinion is bound
to be used to bolster the argument of whichever side
asked you: "Well John said ... "
That bolstering could get you in trouble with the other
person - and it is likely or possible that whatever you
say will be misquoted.

Taking sides in a "sensitive situation" is fraught with
danger.

The next issue is that you are not sure enough of your
opinion to voice it without seeing what people here
think. Or, if you have already voiced it, you have
enough doubt to seek other's viewpoints here. Either
way, it highlights the problem(s) that sensitive
situations create.

If, for the moment, we take the possible danger to you
out of the equation and just look at the situation:
Who can tell? Does anyone replying to the post have
all of pertinent the facts? We don't know the details
of the agreement between the handyman and the shop
owner, whether there was any specific discussion concerning
the CNC machine, what claims the handyman made as to his
experience or expertise, any applicable laws in the location
the work was done, whether/if/when the power utility changed
things and on and on. People could reply with 100% valid
opinions that might not apply to the specific situation.
So, while there may be a clear legal and moral responsibility
for each party, it is impossible for us to to know what it is
at this point.

Ed

Hey, you're good !

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:53:13 -0400, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

"Gunner Asch" <gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:r29255hd4o21ml5ml69f68ikbpk7i96sk0@4ax.com...
On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:04:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:


So then what am I? I passed the tests, at one time held a (California)
C7 and C10 license, ( as responsible managing employee for a large
company who before me had NO liceneses), have worked for the past 12 yrs
as a machine shop electrician (with no failures to date), CNC repair
tech and so forth.

However..Ive refused to belong to any union since 1974, when my 6 week
stint as a UAW worker left me cold about unions.

Am I just a "handyman" because I dont belong to a union <spit>?

My business cards indicate that I do electrical (non licensed) as well
as CNC and Machine Tool Repair.

So am I simply a "handyman"?

Inquiring minds really want to know.

Gunner

Yes, you're a glorified handyman...happy? ;-)

Yes you have the knowledge and experience, but as long as you do not hold a
valid license, you can call yourself an electrician, but you cannot call
yourself a licensed electrician. As an unlicensed electrician you cannot
LEGALLY perform ANY electrical work outside of your own single family
residence. BTW, union or not makes no difference, it's state law we're
talking about.

Which state are we talking about? <G> Its not against the law in
California. I checked. I was thinking about renewing my C10..but the
expenses are high now days...so high by the time I paid off the
State..which has gone into the shitter..paying with IOUs...Id not have
enough left over for fuel to go to work.

I DONT call myself a licensed electrician. In fact..my business cards
state Non-Licensed electrician.

Nor do I call myself an Engineer. I just got done with hassling with
Sacramento because some internet asshole filed an (anonymous) complaint
that I was advertising as an engineer..(false) and they had set up a
single ad on Yahoo someplace that listed me as a PE..which again is
false. I finally got someone who actually listened, checked out my
story..and found me to be innocent and dropped the complaint like a hot
rock. And flagged the case so if its tried again..we both get to go
after them like pirana after a pig in the creek. <EG>

In one city in So Cal...they require that one be either a licensed
electrician, or an employee of the company before one can do electrical
work. So the Company put me on as a temporary employee. <G>

Folks like my work, my fees and my skills, and I often save them a fair
amount of money and provide a clean, proper and useful electrical system
that fits their goals, now and in the future. Shrug..and thats all that
counts. And they pass inspection Every time. And no one ever has to give
a bit of graft to the Inspector..though a few have hinted it might make
things go a bit..."better"

Shrug...so Im a "handyman" by your standards. Chuckle

Ok..Ill live with that.

Gunner


"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno