Driver to drive?

[Greg O]

"StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt" <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote in message
news:c86155tgpqo217cfan7p5ukqaf43r346fk@4ax.com...

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 08:34:43 GMT, nico@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:


Nonsense. If you hire a 'pro' chances are they make even more
mistakes. In this case the owner is to blame. He should have hired
someone from the company that sells the CNC machines to connect them
properly to the mains.

If a proper electrician does not know how to hook up a machine, he is
not a proper electrician.

Pro work is usually insured.

That makes you wrong on both counts.

Perhaps you don't work with many electricians.
I work with electricians on a daily basis, and the large majority of them
can run the wire to the machine, outlet, light fixture, what ever, but few
of them have the ability to make sure it is 100% correct for the equipment
powered. I have seen 480 volts wired to 208, and the reverse, single phase
wired to 3 phase equipment, wrong rotation, (that had been verified correct
by the electrician!), electricians reversing rotation in the equipment so
some motors are correct, and some are reversed, you name it! That is where I
come in, to double check phasing, verify incoming voltage is correct for the
equipment, and to ensure the voltage taps in the equipment is set properly.
Unless discussed before hand I would not assume the electrician checked to
make sure the equipment was set up for the incoming power. Seems like the
owners responsibility to me!
Greg

 

[Rich.]

"John E." <incognito@xbjcd.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C67607F4002A5A1EB08A39AF@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do
something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice
to
inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and
such?
And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely
had
informed the owner of the voltage difference?
--
John English

It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is found to
be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal, and there is a lot of
equipment out there that does not have taps. Equipment without taps could be
damaged by this higher than usual voltage.

It is the responsibility of the electrician to make sure the equipment he is
wiring can correctly run on the power being supplied. IMO the electrician
did not do his job correctly.

 

[Greg O]

"Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:cZ34m.21185$c82.4832@newsfe08.iad...

Equipment is designed to operate +/- 10% of the nameplate rating. In the
case of taps like what happened here, the taps are supposed to be set by
the electrician to fall within the 10% range. With the taps set at 220v
the CNC machine was good to operate from 218v to 242v. As the power
installer, it was the electrician's responsibility to verify the voltage
coming into the building and adjust the taps on the machine accordingly.
He was paid to correctly hook up power to the machine and failed to do so.

Maybe, maybe not. My thoughts are the equipment was correctly wired, but not
set up properly. Was the electrician paid to do the equipment set up/start
up too? If not, it is the owners problem. The electrician could have easily
looked at the power ratings tag on the equipment and wired it as such. Any
adjustments internal to the machine are the responsibility of the person
that did the start up on the equipment, which in this case, my guess, was
not done.
I have been doing commercial HVAC service for 10 years and have yet to see
an electrician verify anything past the equipment ratings tag. Look at the
tag, shove the proper wires into the terminal block, and slam the door, we
are done, next! We come along afterwards and verify incoming voltage,
rotation, and set any voltage taps.
Greg

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <Wg44m.10923$8P7.9233@newsfe21.iad>, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is found to
be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal, and there is a lot of
equipment out there that does not have taps. Equipment without taps could be
damaged by this higher than usual voltage.

Nonsense. 245V = 240V + 2%. That's just not a big deal -- as long as it's a
nominal 240V supply. If the nominal supply is 208V, then yes, that's a huge
problem. But you have no idea what the supply in the building is supposed to
be, so you have no basis for saying that it's "not normal".

It is the responsibility of the electrician to make sure the equipment he is
wiring can correctly run on the power being supplied.

No, it's not, unless there's a contract specifically requiring him to do so.
The electrician's responsibility is to install the circuits specified by the
person who hired him. The one who owns the equipment is responsible for
preparing the specs.

IMO the electrician
did not do his job correctly.

In what way?

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:28:50 GMT, nico@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:

A CNC machine is something different than a light bulb. Few
electricians know more than how to connect a light bulb and outlets.
Besides, the story doesn't tell whether the machine has a permanent
mains connection or is connected by a cord.

I know of zero CNC machines that operate from a line cord.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 11:09:27 -0500, "Greg O" <goo1959@hotmail.com> wrote:

Perhaps you don't work with many electricians.
I work with electricians on a daily basis, and the large majority of them
can run the wire to the machine, outlet, light fixture, what ever, but few
of them have the ability to make sure it is 100% correct for the equipment
powered.

Which makes ALL of them a mere order taker, point to point wireman.

This was not such an installation. If new runs had to be installed,
then the installer, if only a mere electrician, is already in over his
head if he doesn't know about the equipment to be fed power to.

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <cZ34m.21185$c82.4832@newsfe08.iad>, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

Equipment is designed to operate +/- 10% of the nameplate rating. In the
case of taps like what happened here, the taps are supposed to be set by the
electrician to fall within the 10% range. With the taps set at 220v the CNC
machine was good to operate from 218v to 242v. As the power installer, it
was the electrician's responsibility to verify the voltage coming into the
building

Yes.

and adjust the taps on the machine accordingly.

No, or maybe. You're making an assumption unjustified by the facts presented.

He was paid to
correctly hook up power to the machine and failed to do so.

As described by the OP, he was paid to hook up power to outlets. Verifying
that the machine was set for the correct voltage is outside the scope of the
electrician's responsibility as described in the original post.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:26:35 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <0001HW.C67598E2001051EEB08A39AF@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, incognito@xbjcd.com wrote:
I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.

A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
them.

He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.

Owner throws the switch, all works fine.

The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
controller PCB to the tune of $4000.

Hard to make the case after 4 weeks that _anything_ the electrician did had
anything to do with this. At four seconds, or even four minutes, I'd consider
it obvious. But four weeks went by, and the owner thinks the electrician
caused this? No way.

Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
power supply were set for 220.

So what? Equipment designed for 220V should be able to handle 245V. It's not
the electrician's responsibility to open the CNC machine to see what it's set
for.

If it were wired to an outlet, I would agree.

A hard wired machine power run, however, should also include insuring
that the machine you are hooking up is at least set properly for the
voltage you are going to be bringing live on it. As you will have the
panel for it open, you should make yourself aware of any voltage taps, so
that you don't hook up say a 5% under voltage tap to a 5% or more
overvoltage feed.

Any electrician that is a mere, dumb, brain dead wire terminator should
be looking toward an industry where his mistakes have less of a
catastrophic downside. If you do not take the time to at least examine
what you are hooking up, you have no business in the industry.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 07:34:08 -0700 (PDT), osr@uakron.edu wrote:

Two, I never met a house electrician

CNC machines are NOT 'house electrician' level work.

Where did you get the idea that this was a 'house installation'?

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:08:59 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <Wg44m.10923$8P7.9233@newsfe21.iad>, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is found to
be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal, and there is a lot of
equipment out there that does not have taps. Equipment without taps could be
damaged by this higher than usual voltage.

Nonsense. 245V = 240V + 2%. That's just not a big deal -- as long as it's a
nominal 240V supply. If the nominal supply is 208V, then yes, that's a huge
problem. But you have no idea what the supply in the building is supposed to
be, so you have no basis for saying that it's "not normal".

It is the responsibility of the electrician to make sure the equipment he is
wiring can correctly run on the power being supplied.

No, it's not, unless there's a contract specifically requiring him to do so.
The electrician's responsibility is to install the circuits specified by the
person who hired him. The one who owns the equipment is responsible for
preparing the specs.

IMO the electrician
did not do his job correctly.

In what way?

220 to 245 is an 11.4% difference.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:04:07 -0500, RoyJ <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote:

Assuming a nominal 240VAC supply, 245V is in no way "not correct" -- it's only
about a 2% overvoltage.

And since there is likely no load in shop when the install was taking
place, the 245 would be a higher than normal reading.

You're nuts. Maybe at the end of a 100 yard long run. Maybe.

There is no reason, however, for the entire feed to a building to sag
that far between loaded and unloaded.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 11:27:07 -0500, "Greg O" <goo1959@hotmail.com> wrote:

Maybe, maybe not. My thoughts are the equipment was correctly wired, but not
set up properly.

I cannot believe the remarks made by some in Usenet.

Contradict yourself within a single sentence often, idiot?

 

[krw]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:33:28 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:08:59 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <Wg44m.10923$8P7.9233@newsfe21.iad>, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is found to
be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal, and there is a lot of
equipment out there that does not have taps. Equipment without taps could be
damaged by this higher than usual voltage.

Nonsense. 245V = 240V + 2%. That's just not a big deal -- as long as it's a
nominal 240V supply. If the nominal supply is 208V, then yes, that's a huge
problem. But you have no idea what the supply in the building is supposed to
be, so you have no basis for saying that it's "not normal".

It is the responsibility of the electrician to make sure the equipment he is
wiring can correctly run on the power being supplied.

No, it's not, unless there's a contract specifically requiring him to do so.
The electrician's responsibility is to install the circuits specified by the
person who hired him. The one who owns the equipment is responsible for
preparing the specs.

IMO the electrician
did not do his job correctly.

In what way?


220 to 245 is an 11.4% difference.

220V service doesn't exist, DimBulb.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 11:27:07 -0500, "Greg O" <goo1959@hotmail.com> wrote:

I have been doing commercial HVAC service for 10 years and have yet to see
an electrician verify anything past the equipment ratings tag. Look at the
tag,

I doubt that HVAC systems have the complexity at the access panel that a
multi-phased CNC machine would have.

AC systems have what three tap selections for voltage offset? Oh wait,
you are the idiot that says they don't read past the panel tag.

Regardless, people. If you are hooking up a high power requisite
device (machine), and it contains multiple power taps for VOLTAGE
SELECTION on its termination panel, then the person doing the hooking up
is responsible to make sure that he hooked up the right wire to the right
terminal. If he does not have the experience in the industry to perform
that task, he has no business claiming to be an electrician.

PERIOD!

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:00:59 -0400, Wes <clutch@lycos.com> wrote:

John E. <incognito@xbjcd.com> wrote:


He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.


I'm going to translate this. Hires a guy that isn't a licensed electrician but does do
the job for less than the licensed guys with liability insurance.

Now your friend that was shopping for a free lunch now wants his evening meal paid for.

We don't know the voltage it was running at prior to the move, we don't know the
variability of the supply voltage where it is now.

The handyman wired it to the disconnect. Made sure there was power to that point.

Somewhere after that the machine was powered up. I'm going to assume for the sake of
argument that the handyman got the shop owner or the owners designee to do it. I don't
know any compenent electricans or for that matter decent handymen that will turn on a
complex piece of equipment on their own.

So the owner or designee that has the manuals and such for the machine and should be the
most knowledgeable person in the room is the one that is at fault.

Wes

You're an idiot. That is like saying that if you hire an electrician
to run 245Volts to your 120 volt microwave oven, he'll do it, and will
not be at fault for doing something against the rules.

High power devices should never, repeat NEVER be hooked up merely "to
the disconnect". It should ALWAYS be examined for its POWER panel
connections to insure against improper attachment. PERIOD!

Goddamned cross posting retards! < reference to the OP.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:29:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
<gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

Ok, since you insist would anyone out there who gets 4kv from their local
electric company please raise your hand.

Geoff.

You're a semantical twit.

It was obvious to me what he was referring to.

Distribution feeds.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:46:59 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:33:28 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:08:59 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <Wg44m.10923$8P7.9233@newsfe21.iad>, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is found to
be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal, and there is a lot of
equipment out there that does not have taps. Equipment without taps could be
damaged by this higher than usual voltage.

Nonsense. 245V = 240V + 2%. That's just not a big deal -- as long as it's a
nominal 240V supply. If the nominal supply is 208V, then yes, that's a huge
problem. But you have no idea what the supply in the building is supposed to
be, so you have no basis for saying that it's "not normal".

It is the responsibility of the electrician to make sure the equipment he is
wiring can correctly run on the power being supplied.

No, it's not, unless there's a contract specifically requiring him to do so.
The electrician's responsibility is to install the circuits specified by the
person who hired him. The one who owns the equipment is responsible for
preparing the specs.

IMO the electrician
did not do his job correctly.

In what way?


220 to 245 is an 11.4% difference.

220V service doesn't exist, DimBulb.

Read the post,idiot. If there are no 220 volt service provisions, why
are there "220 volt taps" on equipment?

AND if there IS such a tap, then the electrician feeding it MUST
examine what tap is being fed. PERIOD.

 

[Rich.]

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:I054m.1906$cl4.1129@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com...

In article <h2qf18$8mn$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "William
Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

1) 245VAC is *not* a problem in a nominal 240VAC supply.

That is correct until you factor in that the taps were set to 220v. If the
taps were set at 240, then 245v would never have been a problem.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 11:31:43 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
<rangerssuck@gmail.com> wrote:

Just to muddy it up even further, we recently put a medical device
through CE approval and were advised by the examiner that our label
should read "110/240", and that's the label we passed with.

CE? I am surprised that they did not want it to read "95 - 265 VAC"

That is what most CE equipment works at.

It makes a product that barely works in Japan's 90V realm, and then
only on some products.

I had to do a redesign to insure that a production printer (supply)would
be marketable/functional in Japanese geographical/voltage markets.

 

[krw]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 11:22:34 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:46:59 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:33:28 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:08:59 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <Wg44m.10923$8P7.9233@newsfe21.iad>, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is found to
be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal, and there is a lot of
equipment out there that does not have taps. Equipment without taps could be
damaged by this higher than usual voltage.

Nonsense. 245V = 240V + 2%. That's just not a big deal -- as long as it's a
nominal 240V supply. If the nominal supply is 208V, then yes, that's a huge
problem. But you have no idea what the supply in the building is supposed to
be, so you have no basis for saying that it's "not normal".

It is the responsibility of the electrician to make sure the equipment he is
wiring can correctly run on the power being supplied.

No, it's not, unless there's a contract specifically requiring him to do so.
The electrician's responsibility is to install the circuits specified by the
person who hired him. The one who owns the equipment is responsible for
preparing the specs.

IMO the electrician
did not do his job correctly.

In what way?


220 to 245 is an 11.4% difference.

220V service doesn't exist, DimBulb.

Read the post,idiot. If there are no 220 volt service provisions, why
are there "220 volt taps" on equipment?

Irrelevant to the real world, DimBulb. 220V is so 1950s.

AND if there IS such a tap, then the electrician feeding it MUST
examine what tap is being fed. PERIOD.

Different issue, AlwaysWrong.