Driver to drive?

John Woodgate · Jan 9, 2005

I read in sci.electronics.design that ZZZPK <zzzpk_pkearn_class_a@multi_
band_cb_is_here.eircom.es.it.net> wrote (in <41e18032.101853584@news.iol
..ie&gt

about 'windmill being hoisted', on Sun, 9 Jan 2005:

shades of a ''scraphead challenge'' here.

Freudian slip?
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

John Woodgate · Jan 9, 2005

I read in sci.electronics.design that Mark Jones <abuse@127.0.0.1> wrote
(in <6vydnS33dMcy-XzcRVn-oQ@buckeye-express.com&gt

about 'Quick power
supply question', on Sun, 9 Jan 2005:

John Woodgate wrote:
I read in sci.electronics.design that markzoom <markzoom@digiverse.net
wrote (in <7172c4fd.0501090729.17d84f6e@posting.google.com&gt about
'Quick power supply question', on Sun, 9 Jan 2005:

Does the symbol, a solid line with a dotted line over it, denote an
unregulated or a regulated supply?

Officially, it just means 'DC'. People seem to think they can allocate
new meanings to these IEC 60417 symbols and everyone will be informed of
the changed meanings by telepathy.

Does it mean "DC" or "DC and pulsating DC?"

It seems like the solid line denotes filtered DC and the dotted line
denotes rectified (and unfiltered) DC. (I may be wrong...)

This is what I meant by my comment about people redefining the symbols.
I'm not saying that Mark Jones is trying to do that, but it has been
done. Dotted over solid is alleged to be unregulated and solid over
dotted is alleged to be regulated. NOT according to IEC 60417.

If people want to redefine the symbols, the secretary of IEC SC3C would
be pleased to hear from them. Contact via the web site http://www.iec.ch
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Jim Thompson · Jan 9, 2005

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 19:56:00 +0000, John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <john@spamless.usa
wrote (in <c903u0t8trh7u2njee1p16i5lkbrpibm1t@4ax.com&gt about 'I was
suddenly struck with a thought (POLITICAL)', on Sun, 9 Jan 2005:

Drinking up all the wine, no doubt.

Depends. He's not a strict Muslim, but he may not take wine. I believe
there is more aversion to pork than to alcohol, though, among non-strict
Muslims in Europe.

I don't suppose Jim keeps pigs in his cellar, anyway.

No cellar, so no pigs

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Rich Grise · Jan 9, 2005

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:22:20 -0800, cfoley1064 wrote:

Hi, Scott. If you're looking for minimum cost/high reliability, you
might want to consider manufacturing some small flip cards with
numerals on them (card stock works well for this), and affix them to
some rings mounted on the upper part of the display. If you use a
printer to make your numbers, it can look pretty good, and is about as
reliable as you can get. Flip cards over to get to the right numbers,
and you're there. I've seen it done effectively for church
fundraisers.

And if you go to the local gas station, and either talk them into lending
you some price numbers or telling you where they get them, you don't have
to print anything, and the cost could be zero. ;-)

Or go to _all_ of the gas stations, and offer give them credit for
providing the display, like a statement near the bottom: "Display courtesy
Joe's Service - Joe's Logo Here" or some such.

Cheers!
Rich

John Larkin · Jan 9, 2005

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 19:56:00 +0000, John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <john@spamless.usa
wrote (in <c903u0t8trh7u2njee1p16i5lkbrpibm1t@4ax.com&gt about 'I was
suddenly struck with a thought (POLITICAL)', on Sun, 9 Jan 2005:

Drinking up all the wine, no doubt.

Depends. He's not a strict Muslim, but he may not take wine. I believe
there is more aversion to pork than to alcohol, though, among non-strict
Muslims in Europe.

I understand this many castles included extensive liquor collections.

I don't suppose Jim keeps pigs in his cellar, anyway.

Likely not.

John

Ed Murphy · Jan 9, 2005

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:47:42 -0600, Randy McLaughlin wrote:

Please stop cross posting.

If they don't listen to the first few requests, then they're probably
trolls, hence quite unlikely to listen to any further requests.

John Fields · Jan 9, 2005

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:47:42 -0600, "Randy McLaughlin"
<randy@nospam.com> wrote:

Please stop cross posting.

---
PKB?

--
John Fields

Pig Bladder · Jan 9, 2005

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 01:26:07 -0600, Randy McLaughlin wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 01:26:07 -0600, Randy McLaughlin crossposted, without
setting followups:

Please stop cross posting.

Hey, dimwit - if you're going to snivel about crossposts, at least get
enough of a clue to not crosspost it, and to set your own followups-to.
--
The Pig Bladder From Uranus, Still Waiting for
Some Hot Babe to Ask What My Favorite Planet Is.

Ken Smith · Jan 9, 2005

In article <10u2savniuu6677@corp.supernews.com>,
Scott Miller <scott@3xf.com> wrote:

Remember it is the ESR of the capacitors not their capacitance that
matters most to what the diode capacitance is doing. The storage effect
has most of the longer term effect. The capacitance increases the
sharpness of the output edges that happen when the transformer's voltage
swings up and down.

So would a higher ESR help reduce the effect?

No, higher ESR increases the effect.

It's been a couple of years since I did the original version, but I think I
just assumed that the peak voltage would indicate the most efficient use of
the transformer.

This is somethimes true and sometimes not.

--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

ray13 · Jan 9, 2005

From this link I see cell phone fuel cells no?
http://www.hfcletter.com/pub/XIX_7/stories/144-1.html

John Larkin · Jan 9, 2005

On 9 Jan 2005 14:38:04 -0800, "ray13" <ray_psi@yahoo.com> wrote:

From this link I see cell phone fuel cells no?
http://www.hfcletter.com/pub/XIX_7/stories/144-1.html

Of course the phone is a mockup. If you put it in a real phone, the
alcohol and waste water vapor would rust the guts out.

And imagine opening a briefcase after a couple days of methanol
metabolism inside. It would smell like a mouldy barroom.

John

Jim Thompson · Jan 9, 2005

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 23:23:46 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hi Spehro,

It's a very clever example of how something as boring as gift cards
can be extended in an unexpected direction- and effectively creating a
new form of currency, as Rich implies.

Now just imagine: Pa gives son a Home Depot gift card for Christmas. Son
hands Pa a present: A Home Depot gift card! This has actually happened.
Then there are the 'sinner's gift cards'. We can buy cards that hold
x-many pounds (pounds!) of bonbons and other candy from a certain local
brand. Yeah, it all tastes great but that really packs in the weight.

We only got one card ever. From neighbors whom we helped out of a
pickle. But there is a caveat: If you don't use it all up by this or
that date the restaurant takes a monthly 'maintenance fee' until
depleted. I never figured out what needs to be maintained on a gift
card. They never came out to polish the plastic or anything.

Now after that MP3 car radio story I feel really old. We live in the
stone age. No MP3, no DVD player, neither cable TV nor satellite. But,
we have a guitar, a piano, an old Hammond organ and a wood stove.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Spehro Pefhany · Jan 9, 2005

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 23:23:46 GMT, the renowned Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hi Spehro,

It's a very clever example of how something as boring as gift cards
can be extended in an unexpected direction- and effectively creating a
new form of currency, as Rich implies.

Now just imagine: Pa gives son a Home Depot gift card for Christmas. Son
hands Pa a present: A Home Depot gift card! This has actually happened.

And both are as happy as can be? Could be.

Then there are the 'sinner's gift cards'. We can buy cards that hold
x-many pounds (pounds!) of bonbons and other candy from a certain local
brand. Yeah, it all tastes great but that really packs in the weight.

We only got one card ever. From neighbors whom we helped out of a
pickle. But there is a caveat: If you don't use it all up by this or
that date the restaurant takes a monthly 'maintenance fee' until
depleted. I never figured out what needs to be maintained on a gift
card. They never came out to polish the plastic or anything.

They get enough anyway when people lose them or forget to cash them
in. I suppose that's a method that makes sure that all kinds of people
don't suddenly come in and redeem them- probably keeps the accountants
happy that they can reduce this liability that's on the books.

Now after that MP3 car radio story I feel really old. We live in the
stone age. No MP3, no DVD player, neither cable TV nor satellite. But,
we have a guitar, a piano, an old Hammond organ and a wood stove.

Regards, Joerg

Just as well, you can never be satisfied once you start coveting
technology. I was lamenting that it doesn't handle DVDs or even DL
DVDs (the extra cost would be minimal and 4.7 or 8.5G is a LOT more
music).

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Rich Grise · Jan 9, 2005

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:01:53 -0800, Scott Miller wrote:

Didn't we tell you how to dump that asinine MOV crap in a previous thread
you started about this p.o.s.? -PLONK

Yes, I asked for suggestions on replacing the shunt regulator. I got some
great input on using op amps to buffer the feedback signal. Turns out
that's not really the tough part. I've had decent results feeding the MCU's
ADC directly from a voltage divider. The more difficult part is making
sense of those readings and determining how to change the PWM signal.

I agree that the MOVs as a shunt regulator is a POS. Unfortunately just
about every hobbyist design I've ever seen for a Geiger counter uses the
same sort of thing, sometimes using neon bulbs or lots of zeners. I've been
experimenting with using the MOVs to trigger a PWM change because I know
they work, which eliminates one more possible thing to screw up as I start
making changes to the design.

Here's a change you can make with some confidence - use a couple of these
in series:
http://www.vishay.com/docs/88301/15ke.pdf pick the correct voltage of
units, of course. You can probably also get them from Digi-key. And, of
course, that's assuming you're going to insist on using transient
suppressors. ;-)

Then again, they do have a much sharper knee, and since you're going to be
regulating the supply anyway, you could select for just overvoltage, so
they never conduct.

I'm not asking anyone to design this thing for me. I'm just asking for
help understanding what's going on. I've gotten some great feedback on
things like the diode switching speed. I think I'm well on the way to a
reasonably efficient, inexpensive, non-crappy design, and I appreciate
all the help I've gotten here.

Another thing you could do is take the flashes out of a couple of
disposable cameras and put them in series. ;-)

Good Luck!
Rich

Charles Schuler · Jan 9, 2005

I prefer ethanol, because if worse comes to worst, you can drink it.

Joerg · Jan 9, 2005

Hi Spehro,

Now just imagine: Pa gives son a Home Depot gift card for Christmas. Son
hands Pa a present: A Home Depot gift card! This has actually happened.

And both are as happy as can be? Could be.

You got a point there. Both are now relieved of the usual burden of
having to explain to their wives why they absolutely needed that new big
air compressor for the garage.

In Jim's case it is even better because both husband and wife get to
enjoy the gift cards.

Now after that MP3 car radio story I feel really old. We live in the
stone age. No MP3, no DVD player, neither cable TV nor satellite. But,
we have a guitar, a piano, an old Hammond organ and a wood stove.

Just as well, you can never be satisfied once you start coveting
technology. I was lamenting that it doesn't handle DVDs or even DL
DVDs (the extra cost would be minimal and 4.7 or 8.5G is a LOT more
music).

Why not go a step further and install a cell based data port where you
can select any tune that is stored on your PC network at home? Of course
that would require a cell plan with oodles of free minutes to handle the
data load, so maybe this idea is a bit premature. For the time being you
could also install one of those umpteen gigabyte USB drives plus a WLAN
port in your car. Then download all the tunes you might possibly ever
want while parked in the garage. However, it still won't beat the
spontaneous blues a neighbor sang and played on the piano on New Year's
after the fifth glass of rum punch. I almost thought we all had been
beamed to New Orleans.

I prefer simple life when it comes to creature comfort. If I'd be the
jury on this innovation contest I'd vote for the new generation (90's)
wood stoves. Very efficient, cheap heat, no smoke, even saves the gym
membership fees if you chop the wood yourself. Best of all, no
electronics that could conk out. Not even a diode.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

John Larkin · Jan 9, 2005

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 22:49:57 GMT, Richard the Dreaded Liberal
<eatmyshorts@doubleclick.net> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:07:34 -0800, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 22:45:38 GMT, Richard the Dreaded Liberal
eatmyshorts@doubleclick.net> wrote:

You're right. A dreaded liberal would never say such a thing. I just can't
bring myself to call myself a neocon, which are the people who would enjoy
that sort of hate.

The semi-official definition of "neo-conservative" is "a liberal who
has been mugged by reality." That's sort of an engineering approach to
social well-being.

What, they turn neocon to get revenge on reality by flipping over to perp?

Sounds logical to me.

Cheers!
Rich

OK, consider this perspective:

NeoCons have, philosophically, a sincere desire to make the world a
better place for everyone, both materially and spiritually. But they
reject the classic "liberal" methods as counter-productive and
soul-wrenching, so propose other methods.

The liberals of course see this as a severe threat... humane goals -
their alleged turf - but more effective methods; so they must label
the neocons as toadies of Halliburton and such. And besides, their
ancient emphasis on material well-being and "the means of production"
is economically obsolete and has zero spiritual content, so that makes
them even more threatened. In the US at least, liberals are
increasingly atheistic, childless, coastal, wealthy yuppies, and the
real working class of the US is turning increasingly into neo-cons, as
the last election suggests.

Discussion? Or insults, whatever.

I gotta go serve the champagne and red beans.

John

Jim Thompson · Jan 9, 2005

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:37:37 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
<g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote:

What we should do is just leave, and there will be no reason for them to
defend themselves from the invaders.

==========================

You can't do that!
It would mean an abject admission of defeat.
And who is there to guard the oil wells and pipelines?
In any case there are not enough soldiers who have become drug addicts yet.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jim Thompson · Jan 9, 2005

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:18:00 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
[snip]

I prefer simple life when it comes to creature comfort. If I'd be the
jury on this innovation contest I'd vote for the new generation (90's)
wood stoves. Very efficient, cheap heat, no smoke, even saves the gym
membership fees if you chop the wood yourself. Best of all, no
electronics that could conk out. Not even a diode.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

I figured out something I need to buy for MY father. A few weeks ago,
during a big snow storm in WV, they were without electric power for
about five hours in the middle of the night. Got VERY cold.

Natural gas furnace, but no electric to drive the blower :-(

I suspect there's a motor-generator set made that runs on natural gas?
Just rig it up to run the furnace blower and some emergency lighting.

Anyone know where to look for such an animal?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Xian · Jan 9, 2005

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:55:08 GMT, m II <C@In.The.Hat> wrote:

John Woodgate wrote:

UL has invaded CSA and annexed it? (;-)

A 'Standard' procedure?

mike

....And yet WHAT THE FUCK is this CRAP doing intruding into the
HK.FORSALE Newsgroup ?????????????

Driver to drive?

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