Driver to drive?

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:45:45 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 11:20:16 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 18:10:31 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:


The people who have been making radios for close to a century have
probably optimized the design.

Optimized for cost to sales ratio, certainly, but maybe not for the best
performance to size ratio.


** The latter is exactly what a ferrite antenna is optimised for.


In the early days of transistor radios, size was limited and gain was
expensive, so it was worth some ferrite to get more RF input power.
Gain is now so cheap that an air core antenna might be OK.



** Really ?

Try posting an idea that is not full of ambiguities.


... Phil


Maybe I should have used shorter words?
I've got an AM radio that came with an air core antenna.
(1990's vintage)
~4" (10 cm) squarish loop. Not sure how many turns.
Works fine.

Yes. Gain is cheap now.

(sorry, Phil, one of those words has 5 letters.)


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[amdx]

On 3/15/2017 9:51 PM, billbowden wrote:

"Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7108a9ca-3ab7-423b-aa1e-7b53d1916cdb@googlegroups.com...
Bill Bowden wrote:


** Your Q is stupid, ferrite antennas must have the wire wound on the
rod.


Well, I can't help it if I'm stupid.

** But you can piss off and stop being a PITA troll.

I was just born that way.


** No excuse for you to go around annoying people.

And I did
assume the wire should be wound around the ferrite rod usually using Litz
wire to reduce the skin effect.


** No way anyone can know what you claim you assumed but did not post.


Go read the original post. I clearly asked which was better, an air core
inductor or a ferrite core of the same size . The answer should be yes this
and not that, but you don't have any idea. You are just a bozo. .


And you can make up *any damn shit* later.


But there are some eddy current losses in
the ferrite and I was just wondering if you knew how much that woud be?


** That is nothing like your original Q and no question was directed at
me.

You do NOT direct questions at posters except to explain what they have
posted. All other question are directed to the group.


Well, I'm directing the question to you since you seem to know everything.
And BTW, I worked in a radio factory and adjusted maybe 1000 antenna
loopsticks in transistor radios and peaked the trimmer caps at the top end
and moved the coil winding on the ferrite rod at the low end to get best
performance across the band. I'm not a novice. So, why don't you fuck off?
. .

You are making shit up, moment to moment.

Kindly fuck off.


.... Phil

Please don't abuse Phil, he's our entertainment.
Mikek

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[rickman]

On 3/16/2017 1:07 PM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

Mr Allison is plainly nuttier than I expected.

No argument there and I have no idea what you expected.

http://www.intersil.com/content/dam/intersil/documents/icl8/icl8038.pdf
Figure 20 on p10 plain as day shows upto 11% distortion on sine waves, and figure 18 admits upto 10% linearity on triangle waves. What sort of loon sits there lying on something so trivial for every reader to go see. What a - I don't know what he is. Just a nut.

I believe the context of this discussion was "audio" gear. The high
distortion of the ICL8038 is only in the frequency range above 20 kHz.

--

Rick C

 

[Phil Allison]

tabb...is a lying fuckwit and usenet criminal

** Must be a delusion - cos it contradicts the experience of all others.

Or just plain old bullshit made up by valve freaks.


It's the collective experience of far more people than you.


** No it's not - you pathetic lying POS.



I told you to fuck off.

Do so or I will hound you off this NG.



You aren't capable of it.


** Fact is, I am very good at it and very successful.



Anyone can look at that figure 20 and see the claimed 11% distortion
plain as day.


** And they can see you posted a MASSIVE LIE as well.

You are a one sad & sorry fuckwit without a single shred of decency in you.

Lying on a technical NG is incredibly moronic.

Folk like you are pox on the face of the earth.

Drop dead.



Mr Allison is plainly nuttier than I expected.
http://www.intersil.com/content/dam/intersil/documents/icl8/icl8038.pdf
Figure 20 on p10 plain as day shows upto 11% distortion on sine waves,

** Big shame what the typical number is over the audio band

You stinking, lying fuckwit.

Get off the NG.


...... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

John Larkin wrote:

** The latter is exactly what a ferrite antenna is optimised for.


In the early days of transistor radios, size was limited and gain was
expensive, so it was worth some ferrite to get more RF input power.
Gain is now so cheap that an air core antenna might be OK.


** Really ?

Try posting an idea that is not full of ambiguities.


Maybe I should have used shorter words?

** Express you idea clearly or fuck off.

I know already you will do neither.

You pompous, bullshitting ass.



...... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

George Herold wrote:

In the early days of transistor radios, size was limited and gain was
expensive, so it was worth some ferrite to get more RF input power.
Gain is now so cheap that an air core antenna might be OK.



** Really ?

Try posting an idea that is not full of ambiguities.





Maybe I should have used shorter words?

I've got an AM radio that came with an air core antenna.
(1990's vintage)
~4" (10 cm) squarish loop. Not sure how many turns.
Works fine.

** So it's an external loop for a main powered receiver ?

You need to learn how to post unambiguously too.

IOW not smartarse style like Larkin.



..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

The amdx fool wrote:

Bill Bowden wrote:

Which is a better design. Suppose you have a 6 inch length of
PVC pipe with numerous turns of wire that has an inductance of say 200uH.
Now suppose you use the same (6 inch) piece of PVC with a ferrite rod in the core ...

There's no comparison.


** You have **over-snipped** and ruined the OP's question.

That's because the two antenna designs have
completely different impedances,

** The ferrite one will have a higher Q, but similar impedance.



I'll disagree with you on that Phil,

** Where was the over-sniping error?

Did you even think about it?

I recently built 5 coils
using 6" polystyrene pipe coupler as a form.

** That would be 6" diameter - right ?

The fuckwit OP was considering 6" *long* pipe that could enclose a ferrite rod.

The rest of you post was OT, tell me how do you get a 6" dia pipe inside a pocket size transistor radio ?

You are an idiot Mikek.


..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
Phil Allison

The gain ( = directivity x efficiency) for a typical loopstick is
very bad in the order of -60 to -80 dB,


** Compared to what ???

I when the gain is worse than -60 dB,

** You have not understood the question, by trying too hard to be a smartarse.

A half wave antenna 150 meters long?

The effective hight for a short antenna /in this case strung into the
trees) is only a few dBs below a full size antenna. For derivation,
check John.D. Kraus: "Antennas"

** Try actually answering the question sometime - dickhead.

But thanks to the extremely high band noise at LF and MF,
you still get usable SNR with such designs.

** This is not right.

Whatever the inherent atmospheric noise at MF, the signal from the transmitter can over-ride it.

AM does not have inherently bad s/n unless you are DXing.

Depending of the definition of DXing ,

** FFS - you have the attention span of a gnat.

I have a hi-fi AM tuner that coupled with small frame antenna
( 40x40 cm) is capable of FM like results from good, local broadcasts.

You must be living very close to the transmitter.

** No more than the vast majority of people living in Sydney.

( snip more smartase shite)

You are so full of bollocks it smells.



..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

John Larkin wrote:

** The latter is exactly what a ferrite antenna is optimised for.


In the early days of transistor radios, size was limited and gain was
expensive, so it was worth some ferrite to get more RF input power.
Gain is now so cheap that an air core antenna might be OK.


** Really ?

Try posting an idea that is not full of ambiguities.


Maybe I should have used shorter words?


** Express you idea clearly

which I did

** Another deliberate lie.

or fuck off.

You and what army?

** Larkin must be either drunk or on drugs today.

Wot an obnoxious, fucking shithead.



...... Phil

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:12:14 -0700 (PDT), Bill Beaty
<billb@eskimo.com> wrote:

Which one would capture the most signal at the AM Broadcast frequencies

Is your real question , how do we optimize electrically-small 500KHz loop antennas?

Start by defining optimum.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[George Herold]

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 6:47:58 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:

George Herold wrote:



In the early days of transistor radios, size was limited and gain was
expensive, so it was worth some ferrite to get more RF input power.
Gain is now so cheap that an air core antenna might be OK.



** Really ?

Try posting an idea that is not full of ambiguities.





Maybe I should have used shorter words?

I've got an AM radio that came with an air core antenna.
(1990's vintage)
~4" (10 cm) squarish loop. Not sure how many turns.
Works fine.


** So it's an external loop for a main powered receiver ?

Right, It's a JVC "ultra compact component system"
FS-1000

I made a wooden box with handles, so to me it's
semi-mobile. :^)

It's got seven turns of insulated cable,
in a 1 cm width. The coil is not a square, ~10 cm X
12 cm. I could stick it in my back pack and take it to work
(if it mattered) and measure inductance and Q/R on our
SRS box, 100 kHz and lower.

Knowing almost nothing about AM, (and assuming I don't care about price.)
I figure I want the highest Q possible on the front end..
times some area... And I have no idea how to calculate the
"area" of a ferrite. Measurements would be in order.
(Hopefully someone has already done them.)

George H.

You need to learn how to post unambiguously too.

IOW not smartarse style like Larkin.
Larkin is great, I like you too.... :^)

George H.

.... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

George Herold wrote:

I've got an AM radio that came with an air core antenna.
(1990's vintage)
~4" (10 cm) squarish loop. Not sure how many turns.
Works fine.


** So it's an external loop for a main powered receiver ?

Right, It's a JVC "ultra compact component system"
FS-1000

** So why didn't you post that info before?

It's a fucking frame antenna, already discussed here in this thread and been around since the dawn of radio.

Knowing almost nothing about AM, (and assuming I don't care about price.)
I figure I want the highest Q possible on the front end..

** Nope.

You need at least 10kHz of bandwidth at the antenna so the Q must not exceed 50 to 100 across the AM band. You will find that antenna has a fairly low Q in practice.

You need to learn how to post unambiguously too.

IOW not smartarse style like Larkin.

Larkin is great,

** Larkin is a smug pig and a troll.

He is so narcissistic he thinks he owns the NG and everyone on it.


> I like you too.... :^)

** With friends like you, one has no need of enemies.



..... Phil

 

[amdx]

On 3/16/2017 3:06 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:12:14 -0700 (PDT), Bill Beaty
billb@eskimo.com> wrote:

Which one would capture the most signal at the AM Broadcast frequencies

Is your real question , how do we optimize electrically-small 500KHz loop antennas?




Start by defining optimum.

He did, as did the op, (capture the most signal)
The next thing is to eliminate transmitted signals you don't want.
You can reduce one lobe of the figure 8 by phasing with a vertical.
Other than that not a lot you can do until you start getting a healthy
part of a wavelength distance between antennas.
Mikek

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[bitrex]

On 03/15/2017 02:18 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 22:47:44 -0400, bitrex
bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote:

On 03/14/2017 09:58 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
"Procedure" tomorrow (Wednesday) at 11:00AM:

Down the throat with a scope, check out the stomach, then into the
small intestine, use side-looking ultrasound on the end of the probe
(didn't know such a thing existed) to examine the common pancreas/bile
duct, go up it with a wire, then thread a balloon up that wire,
inflate and decimate the stones, then go on up and examine the gall
bladder.

Possible later procedure, after the nauseous, tiredness, yellowness
abates, go in thru an incision and remove the gall bladder.

Such fun >:-}

If I don't show up in a day or too...

...Jim Thompson


The "worst" part about being the type that's drawn to engineering is
that it's usually the innately curious type, the kind that wants to read
descriptions of how things work. Like medical procedures.

The usual result is "Well, I wish I hadn't read that."

I found just the opposite. The things that bothered me the most were
the things they didn't (don't) tell me. The other stuff sounded
pretty bad but was a breeze.

I could see that. When I had severe pneumonia it was the doctor who told
me "Well, we're going to have to give you a couple of antibiotic
injections."

It was the nurse who told me later "Pull your pants down so I can inject
them where they need to go"

 

[George Herold]

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 8:36:16 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:

George Herold wrote:



I've got an AM radio that came with an air core antenna.
(1990's vintage)
~4" (10 cm) squarish loop. Not sure how many turns.
Works fine.


** So it's an external loop for a main powered receiver ?

Right, It's a JVC "ultra compact component system"
FS-1000


** So why didn't you post that info before?

'cos I'm now at home and not at work.
It's a fucking frame antenna, already discussed here in this thread and been around since the dawn of radio.



Knowing almost nothing about AM, (and assuming I don't care about price.)
I figure I want the highest Q possible on the front end..


** Nope.

You need at least 10kHz of bandwidth at the antenna so the Q must not exceed 50 to 100 across the AM band. You will find that antenna has a fairly low Q in practice.

OK I was thinking of best signal to noise, and figuring that ~1-2 kHz would
be enough.. Everyones "best/ optimal" is a bit different.

You need to learn how to post unambiguously too.

IOW not smartarse style like Larkin.

Larkin is great,

** Larkin is a smug pig and a troll.

He is so narcissistic he thinks he owns the NG and everyone on it.


I like you too.... :^)

** With friends like you, one has no need of enemies.

See, that's why I like you.
You treat all with equal disdain, so how could I be insulted.

NG-wise, I'd enjoy more "trolls" like Larkin.

George H.

.... Phil

 

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 00:17:55 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
<pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

upsid...@downunder.com wrote:



The gain ( = directivity x efficiency) for a typical loopstick is
very bad in the order of -60 to -80 dB,


** Compared to what ???

I when the gain is worse than -60 dB, it doesn't matter if the
reference is dBd or dBi, the difference is only 2 dB

A half wave antenna 150 meters long?

The effective hight for a short antenna /in this case strung into the
trees) is only a few dBs below a full size antenna. For derivation,
check John.D. Kraus: "Antennas"

But thanks to the extremely high band noise at LF and MF,
you still get usable SNR with such designs.

** This is not right.

Whatever the inherent atmospheric noise at MF, the signal from the transmitter can over-ride it.

AM does not have inherently bad s/n unless you are DXing.

Depending of the definition of DXing , much of the MF/HF stations in
Europe has been shut down. Of course Russian propaganda stations are
still going strong, but wants to listen to them .


>I have a hi-fi AM tuner that coupled with small frame antenna ( 40x40 cm) is capable of FM like results from good, local broadcasts.

You must be living very close to the transmitter.

- On SSB the SNR is the same as the RF SNR. To get 10 dB improvement
in the audio SNR, you need 10 times more power-
- For strong (local) signals, this also applies to AM
- For FM transmissions the audio SNR is FM_gain + CNR (carrier to
noise ratio). Above the FM threshold the cost of increasing the SNR
is as costly as on AM
- for digital, going from 48 dB to 96 dB (8 to 16 bits) SNR only
requires doubling the bandwidth and hence transmitter power.

It uses just 2 small valves.



.... Phil

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:41:37 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
<pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:



** The latter is exactly what a ferrite antenna is optimised for.


In the early days of transistor radios, size was limited and gain was
expensive, so it was worth some ferrite to get more RF input power.
Gain is now so cheap that an air core antenna might be OK.


** Really ?

Try posting an idea that is not full of ambiguities.


Maybe I should have used shorter words?


** Express you idea clearly

which I did

> or fuck off.

You and what army?


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Phil Allison]

George Herold wrote:

I've got an AM radio that came with an air core antenna.
(1990's vintage)
~4" (10 cm) squarish loop. Not sure how many turns.
Works fine.


** So it's an external loop for a main powered receiver ?

Right, It's a JVC "ultra compact component system"
FS-1000


** So why didn't you post that info before?

'cos I'm now at home and not at work.

** Huh ?? Wot a fucking bullshit excuse.

You need at least 10kHz of bandwidth at the antenna so the
Q must not exceed 50 to 100 across the AM band. You will find
that antenna has a fairly low Q in practice.


OK I was thinking of best signal to noise, and figuring that ~1-2 kHz would
be enough..

** For a 500Hz audio bandwidth ?

You really do know fuck all about AM or anything else.

You need to learn how to post unambiguously too.

IOW not smartarse style like Larkin.

Larkin is great,

** Larkin is a smug pig and a troll.

He is so narcissistic he thinks he owns the NG and everyone on it.


I like you too.... :^)

** With friends like you, one has no need of enemies.


See, that's why I like you.
You treat all with equal disdain,

** That is absurd, I only treat idiots and trolling loonies with distain.

Fraid you fit both categories.

Plus you're a wanker.


...... Phil

 

On Friday, 17 March 2017 03:56:37 UTC, David Eather wrote:

On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 13:56:13 +1000, David Eather <eather@tpg.com.au> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 22:39:48 +1000, <tabbypurr> wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 12:10:36 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
On 14/03/2017 13:58, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 14 March 2017 09:22:05 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:

There used to be old school analogue function generator chips that
made a triangle wave and then applied diode shaping to get a
pseudo-sine wave. HP made one design implementation that was
surprisingly good. Intersils 8038 was the poor mans alternative for
DIY.


http://www.intersil.com/content/dam/intersil/documents/icl8/icl8038.pdf


I built one of those decades ago. What a car crash. The wave forms
were hopeless. I don't remember the details to know why, I presume
the problem was the 8038 though.

It was never anything like as good as a Wein bridge sine wave but it
was
good for about 0.5% THD if you trimmed it properly. I suspect
manufacturing tolerances made it inconsistent batch to batch.

Cute chip in its day, but that was a long time ago.

I doubt it managed 50%, let alone 0.5%. It had 3 outputs, sine square &
triangle. At some frequencies one output looked more like one of the
others should, and the others were just a mess. It was dire, and yes I
followed the advised circuit. It might manage 0.5% at some frequency,
but as a sig gen it was a real failure. If I ever get the time I'll
look at it again one day, it's on a shelf somewhere.


NT

there were a few kits designed with it - they really did manage 0.5%

Presumably they used only part of its frequency range.


NT

 

[George Herold]

On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 10:30:32 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 18:46:06 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 8:36:16 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:
George Herold wrote:



I've got an AM radio that came with an air core antenna.
(1990's vintage)
~4" (10 cm) squarish loop. Not sure how many turns.
Works fine.


** So it's an external loop for a main powered receiver ?

Right, It's a JVC "ultra compact component system"
FS-1000


** So why didn't you post that info before?

'cos I'm now at home and not at work.
It's a fucking frame antenna, already discussed here in this thread and been around since the dawn of radio.



Knowing almost nothing about AM, (and assuming I don't care about price.)
I figure I want the highest Q possible on the front end..


** Nope.

You need at least 10kHz of bandwidth at the antenna so the Q must not exceed 50 to 100 across the AM band. You will find that antenna has a fairly low Q in practice.
OK I was thinking of best signal to noise, and figuring that ~1-2 kHz would
be enough.. Everyones "best/ optimal" is a bit different.

An AM antenna doesn't need to be tuned at all. An untuned coil will
snoop the ambient h-field.

I guess that's right. As long as most of the noise is "in the air" it doesn't
really matter where the band pass filter is. (Except for dynamic range issues.)

George H.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics