Does this device exist?

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 10/1/2019 7:33 AM, pfjw@aol.com wrote:

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 4:49:08 PM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

I see you offer zero basis for this claim. It's just a basic demand management unit.

Nope, no basis whatsoever, other than the National Electrical Code as published by the NFPA out of Quincy, MA.

Well, it may be a very bad idea, but the NEC doesn't cover stuff plugged
into receptacles, as this dishwasher is.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 7:59:16 AM UTC-4, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Well, it may be a very bad idea, but the NEC doesn't cover stuff plugged
into receptacles, as this dishwasher is.

It does cover kludged relays that control line-voltage appliances.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 04:18:49 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com"
<peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 4:40:22 PM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

Point of use water heaters don't provide enough hot water to wash a
load of dishes.

Eric:

a) Unless you are using a dishwasher from the POS Manufacturing Company, Hangsen, China, it *DOES NOT NEED* very hot water to operate. The on-board heater (NSF requirement) will manage the difference between incoming water temperature and that necessary to clean the dishes.
b) And, if you are using a dishwasher made in the last 3 - 5 years, and from a reputable manufacturer, it will use very little water relative to hand-washing. So, if a POU device will be adequate for doing dishes in the sink, it will be equally adequate to supply a dishwasher.

As a point of comparison, our 10-year old Bosch (made in Tennessee) uses less than 4 gallons of water in the "Scrub-Paint-From-a-Board" mode, and about 0.870 KW of energy. Nor do we have to pre-wash the dishes. Anything smaller than cherry and softer than a hard nut will be handled. Advanced for its day, commonplace now.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Once again I fail to make myself clear. The water heater is for hand
washing dishes, not the diswasher. That's why the heater can be off
when the dishwasher is running. In my brother's house dishes are
washed more by hand than by dishwasher but bioth get used.
Eric

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 10:21:31 AM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

Once again I fail to make myself clear. The water heater is for hand
washing dishes, not the diswasher. That's why the heater can be off
when the dishwasher is running. In my brother's house dishes are
washed more by hand than by dishwasher but bioth get used.
Eric

Then, even the smallest POU heater will be fine for dishes, as long as the user does not leave it on "BLAST". Keep in mind that the average handwash for two users, one meal, is about 2.75 gallons (10.5 liters) of water. Modern dishwashers use, typically, less than a gallon (2.75 liters).

You are over-complicating a rather simple problem.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[John-Del]

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 10:21:31 AM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

Once again I fail to make myself clear. The water heater is for hand
washing dishes, not the diswasher. That's why the heater can be off
when the dishwasher is running. In my brother's house dishes are
washed more by hand than by dishwasher but bioth get used.
Eric

An on-demand system would be perfect for him and take up much less space. Why doesn't your brother want an instant demand heater?

If it's electrical draw that exceeds the wiring, I'd just snake in new wiring and a new breaker and use the on demand heater.

 

[Wond]

On Tue, 01 Oct 2019 01:46:45 -0400, ehsjr wrote:

On 9/30/2019 12:27 PM, Wond wrote:
On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 08:48:15 -0700, etpm wrote:

My brother's wife wants a small water heater under the kitchen sink.
Not an instant hot water type but one that holds a couple gallons.
There is a receptacle under the sink but it also powers the
diswasher. I am concerned that if both the dishwasher and the water
heater are on at the same time it will pop the breaker.
I am looking for a device that will allow the water heater to be
on
until the diswasher starts drawing a certain amount of current, at
which point the power to the heater would be turned off.
The power to the dishwasher needs to be on all the time, only the
heater should be switched. A switch for the water heater cannot be
added. The solution needs to be plug and play and require no input
from anyone using the diswasher.
It seems to me that something like this must be available but I
can't think of what it would be called and my brain is apparently too
fuzzy this morning to get google to come up with something for me.
I am willing to build the device myself if need be but a purchased
product would be better.
Thanks,
Eric

If you are in North America, and that is a "duplex" receptacle, its
likeley to be an "appliance" outlet, that is, each side wired to a
separate breaker. Check the labelling in the box to find out, or
measure the voltage between the two "hot" connectors. 230V means you're
good to go.


Assuming the wiring is correct:
In the USA a standard duplex receptacle is wired for 120 volts.
A receptacle wired for 230 (240) will not be a duplex.

Ed

Where I am, the hardware is the same. The installer simply breaks out
the connector tab between the 'hots'.

 

[Ralph Phillips]

On 10/1/2019 9:23 AM, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

Once again I fail to make myself clear. The water heater is for hand
washing dishes, not the diswasher. That's why the heater can be off
when the dishwasher is running. In my brother's house dishes are
washed more by hand than by dishwasher but bioth get used.
Eric

*blink*

Simple.

Don't hand wash dishes if the dishwasher is going.

I don't see the problem or the need to automate something that can be
handled by the grey matter between the ears.

RwP

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 3:19:33 PM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

Actually, I'm not. They tried a small instant hot heater. It did not
provide enough hot water. They saw the small water heater I use in my
shop and they think it is perfect. It just draws too much current to
be used at the same time a dishwasher is heating.

The solution is, then, contained in how you stated the problem.

a) A tankless POU water heater uses current only when flowing.
b) A dishwasher wants hot water to feed it, but it does not require it to function properly. NSF regulations see to that.
c) If your brother is able to restrain himself to not running hot water to the sink except when the dishwasher is OFF, just go with a larger tankless device. They come (in the US) up to 18 A at 120 V.

Under your sink, run the tankless heater to a separate dispenser - some even come that way. Use the regular hot water line to feed the dishwasher, and the cold line to feed the sink. Note that separate dispenser devices will make water hot enough for tea or instant coffee at one setting, then dial back to sub-scalding temperatures for washing use. Handy little things.

Ultron comes to mind as a brand name.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 07:49:46 -0700 (PDT), John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 10:21:31 AM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

Once again I fail to make myself clear. The water heater is for hand
washing dishes, not the diswasher. That's why the heater can be off
when the dishwasher is running. In my brother's house dishes are
washed more by hand than by dishwasher but bioth get used.
Eric

An on-demand system would be perfect for him and take up much less space. Why doesn't your brother want an instant demand heater?

If it's electrical draw that exceeds the wiring, I'd just snake in new wiring and a new breaker and use the on demand heater.

Sheesh! He is not gonna run a new wire. I already said that. It is not
an easy task. Power would need to come down from the attic.
Eric

 

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 07:47:32 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com"
<peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 10:21:31 AM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

Once again I fail to make myself clear. The water heater is for hand
washing dishes, not the diswasher. That's why the heater can be off
when the dishwasher is running. In my brother's house dishes are
washed more by hand than by dishwasher but bioth get used.
Eric

Then, even the smallest POU heater will be fine for dishes, as long as the user does not leave it on "BLAST". Keep in mind that the average handwash for two users, one meal, is about 2.75 gallons (10.5 liters) of water. Modern dishwashers use, typically, less than a gallon (2.75 liters).

You are over-complicating a rather simple problem.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Actually, I'm not. They tried a small instant hot heater. It did not
provide enough hot water. They saw the small water heater I use in my
shop and they think it is perfect. It just draws too much current to
be used at the same time a dishwasher is heating.
Eric

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 10/1/2019 8:03 AM, pfjw@aol.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 7:59:16 AM UTC-4, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Well, it may be a very bad idea, but the NEC doesn't cover stuff plugged
into receptacles, as this dishwasher is.

It does cover kludged relays that control line-voltage appliances.

Only if it's hard wired, If it plugs in, it's an appliance itself.

 

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 11:47:15 AM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

My brother's wife wants a small water heater under the kitchen
sink. Not an instant hot water type but one that holds a couple
gallons.
There is a receptacle under the sink but it also powers the
diswasher. I am concerned that if both the dishwasher and the water
heater are on at the same time it will pop the breaker.
I am looking for a device that will allow the water heater to be on
until the diswasher starts drawing a certain amount of current, at
which point the power to the heater would be turned off.
The power to the dishwasher needs to be on all the time, only the
heater should be switched. A switch for the water heater cannot be
added. The solution needs to be plug and play and require no input
from anyone using the diswasher.
It seems to me that something like this must be available but I
can't think of what it would be called and my brain is apparently too
fuzzy this morning to get google to come up with something for me.
I am willing to build the device myself if need be but a purchased
product would be better.
Thanks,
Eric

Googling "small water heater 120V" I got a bunch of stuff,
here's a 6 gallon one.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/AO-Smith-EJC-6-6-Gallon-ProLine-Compact-Residential-Electric-Water-Heater

Is that what you want?

George H.

 

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 14:51:25 -0700 (PDT), ggherold@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 11:47:15 AM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
My brother's wife wants a small water heater under the kitchen
sink. Not an instant hot water type but one that holds a couple
gallons.
There is a receptacle under the sink but it also powers the
diswasher. I am concerned that if both the dishwasher and the water
heater are on at the same time it will pop the breaker.
I am looking for a device that will allow the water heater to be on
until the diswasher starts drawing a certain amount of current, at
which point the power to the heater would be turned off.
The power to the dishwasher needs to be on all the time, only the
heater should be switched. A switch for the water heater cannot be
added. The solution needs to be plug and play and require no input
from anyone using the diswasher.
It seems to me that something like this must be available but I
can't think of what it would be called and my brain is apparently too
fuzzy this morning to get google to come up with something for me.
I am willing to build the device myself if need be but a purchased
product would be better.
Thanks,
Eric

Googling "small water heater 120V" I got a bunch of stuff,
here's a 6 gallon one.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/AO-Smith-EJC-6-6-Gallon-ProLine-Compact-Residential-Electric-Water-Heater

Is that what you want?

George H.

It's actually smaller, about two gallons.
Eric

 

On Tuesday, 1 October 2019 13:03:58 UTC+1, pf...@aol.com wrote:

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 7:59:16 AM UTC-4, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Well, it may be a very bad idea, but the NEC doesn't cover stuff plugged
into receptacles, as this dishwasher is.

It does cover kludged relays that control line-voltage appliances.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

such demand management is perfectly legal here.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 6:58:54 AM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

> such demand management is perfectly legal here.

The US has three levels of "management" for electrical (and other) devices:

a) The National Electrical Code (NEC): This regulates hard-wired systems and switchgear, and how peripheral devices are connected to the system - such as light fixtures and other devices not plugged in. A hard-wired relay would be considered "switchgear" and therefore covered.

b) UL (Underwriters Laboratory) - this is a 'family' of such bodies, of which UL is the most prevalent: UL regulates those devices that connect to the system above, and has to do with (among many other things) grounding, electrical safety, loading, and so forth. This applies to stand-alone (complete) devices. Note that such devices are "LISTED", not "approved".

c) UR (Recognized): This applies to individual components within a system - such as a relay in a control, or similar. That part does not stand alone. but may be replaceable. So, if one has a UL device of several parts, one fails, then that part *must* be replaced with a UR part to retain the UL listing.

Why it matters: There is this funny thing called "insurance". And if one has property insurance, and reads the fine print, it will refer to things meeting code and being properly inspected and so forth. It will also refer to 'connected devices' or any number of other words for whatever one has to plug into the wall as being "listed".

Should that hand-made relay you are referring to cause a fire and cause damage such that the property owner makes a claim - and should the insurance inspector (and there will be one) determine that the cause was this unlisted/unrecognized device - OOPS! Either the Company will not pay, or if it does, it will then immediately cancel the policy. And the property owner will be quite challenged to get insurance in the future at any reasonable cost.

Nothing that was done was "illegal". And Code Violations are not "illegal".

Just stupid. Something you continue not to understand. And the advice you give continues to suffer for it.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 10/2/19 7:02 AM, pfjw@aol.com wrote:

Nothing that was done was "illegal". And Code Violations are
not "illegal".

In Ranger, the code works like this:
"It ain't blowed up yet has it?"
And when it inevitably does:
"Aw man, it blowed up. You must'a doned it wrong."

Neutrals can be 1 or 2 sizes smaller, because, you know, no
current in Neutral or they would have called it something else.

#8 for a water heater? #10 is cheaper. Same reason #14 works
for outlets.

Double breakers with a pin between the handles? Pish tosh, a
pair of singles works just fine, and they DON'T have to be next
to each other.

Run out of wires? Use the bare one for ground and neutral, then
you can use the white one for power.

No ground in the outlet box? No problem tie the neutral and
ground screws together.

And yeah, I'm waiting for my neighbor's house to explode.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Wolfgang Allinger]

On 30 Sep 19 at group /sci/electronics/repair in article 10b56eb2-75e5-4a4c-b968-5f0b60a5dbb7@googlegroups.com
<tabbypurr@gmail.com> (tabbypurr@gmail.com) wrote:

On Monday, 30 September 2019 16:47:15 UTC+1, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
My brother's wife wants a small water heater under the kitchen
sink. Not an instant hot water type but one that holds a couple
gallons.
There is a receptacle under the sink but it also powers the
diswasher. I am concerned that if both the dishwasher and the water
heater are on at the same time it will pop the breaker.
I am looking for a device that will allow the water heater to be on
until the diswasher starts drawing a certain amount of current, at
which point the power to the heater would be turned off.
The power to the dishwasher needs to be on all the time, only the
heater should be switched. A switch for the water heater cannot be
added. The solution needs to be plug and play and require no input
from anyone using the diswasher.
It seems to me that something like this must be available but I
can't think of what it would be called and my brain is apparently too
fuzzy this morning to get google to come up with something for me.
I am willing to build the device myself if need be but a purchased
product would be better.
Thanks,
Eric

A relay is all you need. Remove the coil & rewind with a small number of
turns of thick wire. Now when enough current goes to the dishwasher, the
water heater is turned off. I'd use 2 relays the same, one to experiment,
the 2nd for the final unit.

No, it wouldn't work. Normal relays working with DC coils. You need a very
special relay designed for AC coils. Very rare and likely expensive.

Contactors exist for AC and DC coils, maybe they work. You need one with
contact type NC i.e. closed for feeding the heater when no current is
drawn from the dishwasher. These NC types are not common too.



Saludos (an alle Vernünftigen, Rest sh. sig)
Wolfgang

--
Ich bin in Paraguay lebender Trollallergiker reply Adresse gesetzt!
Ich diskutiere zukünftig weniger mit Idioten, denn sie ziehen mich auf
ihr Niveau herunter und schlagen mich dort mit ihrer Erfahrung!
(lt. alter usenet Weisheit) iPod, iPhone, iPad, iTunes, iRak, iDiot

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 8:47:23 AM UTC-4, Wolfgang Allinger wrote:

No, it wouldn't work. Normal relays working with DC coils. You need a very
special relay designed for AC coils. Very rare and likely expensive.

Not rare. But certainly expensive, by a factor of 3 to 5. The difference, at the simplest level, is that the AC-coil relay has two coils (transformer) such that the second is producing current as the first is 'collapsing', thereby holding the contactor in place instead of "chattering". That is, as stated, the simplest description of a not-simple configuration - hence the cost.

https://www.techwalla.com/articles/difference-between-ac-dc-relay-coil


Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <20057da5-fcd6-4b84-8d26-c6c5ecee8ba8@googlegroups.com>,
peterwieck33@gmail.com says...

No, it wouldn't work. Normal relays working with DC coils. You need a very
special relay designed for AC coils. Very rare and likely expensive.

Not rare. But certainly expensive, by a factor of 3 to 5. The difference, at the simplest level, is that the AC-coil relay has two coils (transformer) such that the second is producing current as the first is 'collapsing', thereby holding the contactor in place instead of "chattering". That is, as stated, the simplest
description of a not-simple configuration - hence the cost.

https://www.techwalla.com/articles/difference-between-ac-dc-relay-coil


Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

BS

They are not rare or is the price that much different.

For example a plug in relay that is almost identical except for the coil
voltage and current As listed in a Mouser catalog.

KRPA-11AG-120 $ 22 120 Volt AC coil 10 amp contacts
KRPA-11DG-24 $ 16 24 Volt DC coil 10 amp contacts.

That so called second coil is really just a thick piece of copper at the
top of the coil. Large AC contactors often have similar pieces of copper
on the laminations.


I worked in a plant that had hundreds if not thousands of relays similar
to those. Part were AC coils and part were DC coils.


Now solid state 'relays' are often used in switching AC circuits off and
on. We used many of those also.

 

[three_jeeps]

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 3:22:56 PM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 07:49:46 -0700 (PDT), John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 10:21:31 AM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

Once again I fail to make myself clear. The water heater is for hand
washing dishes, not the diswasher. That's why the heater can be off
when the dishwasher is running. In my brother's house dishes are
washed more by hand than by dishwasher but bioth get used.
Eric

An on-demand system would be perfect for him and take up much less space. Why doesn't your brother want an instant demand heater?

If it's electrical draw that exceeds the wiring, I'd just snake in new wiring and a new breaker and use the on demand heater.
Sheesh! He is not gonna run a new wire. I already said that. It is not
an easy task. Power would need to come down from the attic.
Eric

Don't ya just love people who change the invariants of a problem to 'solve' it?

Is there a reason that the hot water heater+tank needs to be under the sink? Would it be possible to mount the heater under the floor under the sink and run a pipe up to the sink? Might allow wiring in a space that is more accessible.