Does this device exist?

My brother's wife wants a small water heater under the kitchen
sink. Not an instant hot water type but one that holds a couple
gallons.
There is a receptacle under the sink but it also powers the
diswasher. I am concerned that if both the dishwasher and the water
heater are on at the same time it will pop the breaker.
I am looking for a device that will allow the water heater to be on
until the diswasher starts drawing a certain amount of current, at
which point the power to the heater would be turned off.
The power to the dishwasher needs to be on all the time, only the
heater should be switched. A switch for the water heater cannot be
added. The solution needs to be plug and play and require no input
from anyone using the diswasher.
It seems to me that something like this must be available but I
can't think of what it would be called and my brain is apparently too
fuzzy this morning to get google to come up with something for me.
I am willing to build the device myself if need be but a purchased
product would be better.
Thanks,
Eric

 

On Monday, 30 September 2019 16:47:15 UTC+1, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

My brother's wife wants a small water heater under the kitchen
sink. Not an instant hot water type but one that holds a couple
gallons.
There is a receptacle under the sink but it also powers the
diswasher. I am concerned that if both the dishwasher and the water
heater are on at the same time it will pop the breaker.
I am looking for a device that will allow the water heater to be on
until the diswasher starts drawing a certain amount of current, at
which point the power to the heater would be turned off.
The power to the dishwasher needs to be on all the time, only the
heater should be switched. A switch for the water heater cannot be
added. The solution needs to be plug and play and require no input
from anyone using the diswasher.
It seems to me that something like this must be available but I
can't think of what it would be called and my brain is apparently too
fuzzy this morning to get google to come up with something for me.
I am willing to build the device myself if need be but a purchased
product would be better.
Thanks,
Eric

A relay is all you need. Remove the coil & rewind with a small number of turns of thick wire. Now when enough current goes to the dishwasher, the water heater is turned off. I'd use 2 relays the same, one to experiment, the 2nd for the final unit.


NT

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

https://www.bosch-thermotechnology.us/ocsmedia/optimized/full/o416419v272_Bosch_Indirect_Tanks_(1).pdf

It is called a "Point-of-Use" water heater.

Now, some Basic Electricity 100:

The POU *STORAGE* water heater draws twelve (12) amps at rated nameplate.
The typical dishwasher with an exposed internal heating element is rated at eleven (12) amps.

We keep a Bosch that does not have an exposed element but does have an on-board flash heater, and so also uses 12 A.

There are two solutions that come immediately to mind. Use a at true instant-hot for your sink water - these devices, typically, run under seven (7) amps. Then, even if you feed the dishwasher from the same line, you would be in no danger of popping a 20 A breaker - the minimum that should be in a kitchen in any case.

Or, run a second line directly to the dishwasher. Which is the way it should be done in any case.

Note that instant-hot water heaters will give you all the hand-use water you want, and nicely support a dishwasher such as it will require minimal use of its on-board heater.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Wond]

On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 08:48:15 -0700, etpm wrote:

My brother's wife wants a small water heater under the kitchen sink.
Not an instant hot water type but one that holds a couple gallons.
There is a receptacle under the sink but it also powers the
diswasher. I am concerned that if both the dishwasher and the water
heater are on at the same time it will pop the breaker.
I am looking for a device that will allow the water heater to be on
until the diswasher starts drawing a certain amount of current, at which
point the power to the heater would be turned off.
The power to the dishwasher needs to be on all the time, only the
heater should be switched. A switch for the water heater cannot be
added. The solution needs to be plug and play and require no input from
anyone using the diswasher.
It seems to me that something like this must be available but I
can't think of what it would be called and my brain is apparently too
fuzzy this morning to get google to come up with something for me.
I am willing to build the device myself if need be but a purchased
product would be better.
Thanks,
Eric

If you are in North America, and that is a "duplex" receptacle, its
likeley to be an "appliance" outlet, that is, each side wired to a
separate breaker. Check the labelling in the box to find out, or measure
the voltage between the two "hot" connectors. 230V means you're good to
go.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 12:00:14 PM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

> A relay is all you need. Remove the coil & rewind with a small number of turns of thick wire. Now when enough current goes to the dishwasher, the water heater is turned off. I'd use 2 relays the same, one to experiment, the 2nd for the final unit.

The good folk in Quincy, MA are recoiling in horror!

DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER this option, most especially if you have any other living things in your household.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 16:27:16 -0000 (UTC), Wond <lost@the.ether.net>
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 08:48:15 -0700, etpm wrote:

My brother's wife wants a small water heater under the kitchen sink.
Not an instant hot water type but one that holds a couple gallons.
There is a receptacle under the sink but it also powers the
diswasher. I am concerned that if both the dishwasher and the water
heater are on at the same time it will pop the breaker.
I am looking for a device that will allow the water heater to be on
until the diswasher starts drawing a certain amount of current, at which
point the power to the heater would be turned off.
The power to the dishwasher needs to be on all the time, only the
heater should be switched. A switch for the water heater cannot be
added. The solution needs to be plug and play and require no input from
anyone using the diswasher.
It seems to me that something like this must be available but I
can't think of what it would be called and my brain is apparently too
fuzzy this morning to get google to come up with something for me.
I am willing to build the device myself if need be but a purchased
product would be better.
Thanks,
Eric

If you are in North America, and that is a "duplex" receptacle, its
likeley to be an "appliance" outlet, that is, each side wired to a
separate breaker. Check the labelling in the box to find out, or measure
the voltage between the two "hot" connectors. 230V means you're good to
go.

You may be correct about that being on two circuits. I have my doubts
because of the age of the house and because of other flaky things
found in his house, but since the wiring SHOULD have been inspected,
maybe you are correct. I'll have my brother check.
Eric

 

On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 09:26:17 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com"
<peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

https://www.bosch-thermotechnology.us/ocsmedia/optimized/full/o416419v272_Bosch_Indirect_Tanks_(1).pdf

It is called a "Point-of-Use" water heater.

Now, some Basic Electricity 100:

The POU *STORAGE* water heater draws twelve (12) amps at rated nameplate.
The typical dishwasher with an exposed internal heating element is rated at eleven (12) amps.

We keep a Bosch that does not have an exposed element but does have an on-board flash heater, and so also uses 12 A.

There are two solutions that come immediately to mind. Use a at true instant-hot for your sink water - these devices, typically, run under seven (7) amps. Then, even if you feed the dishwasher from the same line, you would be in no danger of popping a 20 A breaker - the minimum that should be in a kitchen in any case.

Or, run a second line directly to the dishwasher. Which is the way it should be done in any case.

Note that instant-hot water heaters will give you all the hand-use water you want, and nicely support a dishwasher such as it will require minimal use of its on-board heater.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Point of use water heaters don't provide enough hot water to wash a
load of dishes. But a small water heater will. I use one in my shop.
My brother is not gonna add another line because of the expense.
I can buy a delay relay that is made for shop vacuum systems that
is plug and play, but these devices only delay the turning on by 7
seconds of a load. I need to keep ne load off while the other is on.
Eric

 

On Monday, 30 September 2019 17:26:21 UTC+1, pf...@aol.com wrote:

https://www.bosch-thermotechnology.us/ocsmedia/optimized/full/o416419v272_Bosch_Indirect_Tanks_(1).pdf

It is called a "Point-of-Use" water heater.

Now, some Basic Electricity 100:

The POU *STORAGE* water heater draws twelve (12) amps at rated nameplate.
The typical dishwasher with an exposed internal heating element is rated at eleven (12) amps.

We keep a Bosch that does not have an exposed element but does have an on-board flash heater, and so also uses 12 A.

There are two solutions that come immediately to mind. Use a at true instant-hot for your sink water - these devices, typically, run under seven (7) amps. Then, even if you feed the dishwasher from the same line, you would be in no danger of popping a 20 A breaker - the minimum that should be in a kitchen in any case.

Or, run a second line directly to the dishwasher. Which is the way it should be done in any case.

Note that instant-hot water heaters will give you all the hand-use water you want, and nicely support a dishwasher such as it will require minimal use of its on-board heater.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

An instant water heater that only takes 7A, whether at 110 or 240v, is not going to produce a lot of hot water. Water heating is energy intensive.

And no dishwasher here is designed to support hot water intake.


NT

 

On Monday, 30 September 2019 17:30:12 UTC+1, pf...@aol.com wrote:

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 12:00:14 PM UTC-4, tabby wrote:

A relay is all you need. Remove the coil & rewind with a small number of turns of thick wire. Now when enough current goes to the dishwasher, the water heater is turned off. I'd use 2 relays the same, one to experiment, the 2nd for the final unit.

The good folk in Quincy, MA are recoiling in horror!

DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER this option, most especially if you have any other living things in your household.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

I see you offer zero basis for this claim. It's just a basic demand management unit.

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <f2908cdb-b309-4f82-9386-78564dc3e3db@googlegroups.com>,
tabbypurr@gmail.com says...

And no dishwasher here is designed to support hot water intake.

My dishwasher said to hook it to the hot water line.

 

On Monday, 30 September 2019 21:53:42 UTC+1, Ralph Mowery wrote:

In article <f2908cdb-b309-4f82-9386-78564dc3e3db@googlegroups.com>,
tabbypurr says...

And no dishwasher here is designed to support hot water intake.




My dishwasher said to hook it to the hot water line.

in what country?

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <a84408b3-08cf-46f6-98d2-9a3227b9fdc0@googlegroups.com>,
tabbypurr@gmail.com says...

My dishwasher said to hook it to the hot water line.

in what country?

In the good old USA .


https://www.whirlpool.com/content/dam/global/documents/201608/installati
on-instructions-W10806908-RevC.pdf


Copy and paste from online manual.

WATER SUPPLY REQUIREMENTS
? This dishwasher has a water heating feature and also
requires a connection to a hot water supply line.
? A hot water line with 20 to 120 psi (138 to 862 kPa)
water pressure can be verified by a licensed plumber.
? 120°F (49°C) water at dishwasher
?

 

On Monday, 30 September 2019 22:39:31 UTC+1, Ralph Mowery wrote:

In article <a84408b3-08cf-46f6-98d2-9a3227b9fdc0@googlegroups.com>,
tabbypurr says...

My dishwasher said to hook it to the hot water line.

in what country?



In the good old USA .

US washing appliances are quite different to ours. Why I don't know.


NT

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <35769e99-a32b-4e0b-bb89-0f8e7be8815e@googlegroups.com>,
tabbypurr@gmail.com says...

in what country?



In the good old USA .

US washing appliances are quite different to ours. Why I don't know.


NT

Especially when many of the US appliances are not made in the US any
more.

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 9/30/19 3:48 PM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

And no dishwasher here is designed to support hot water intake.


NT

The breadth of your ignorance never fails to amaze me.
My dishwasher in the kitchen connect to the hot ware line.
And it will NOT run with cold water.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[whit3rd]

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 5:08:11 PM UTC-7, Fox's Mercantile wrote:

On 9/30/19 3:48 PM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
And no dishwasher here is designed to support hot water intake.

The breadth of your ignorance never fails to amaze me.
My dishwasher in the kitchen connect to the hot ware line.
And it will NOT run with cold water.

My dishwasher has internal heat for the final rinse (to meet a NSF hot-water
final rinse temperature requirement). It worked fine, both washing and
rinsing, on cold water (when my water heater was on vacation...) though it
is intended to be plumbed into the hotwater line.

During the water heater replacement, I removed about 20 feet of
rusty iron pipe, replumbed with copper, and the flow is a lot better now.

 

[ehsjr]

On 9/30/2019 12:27 PM, Wond wrote:

On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 08:48:15 -0700, etpm wrote:

My brother's wife wants a small water heater under the kitchen sink.
Not an instant hot water type but one that holds a couple gallons.
There is a receptacle under the sink but it also powers the
diswasher. I am concerned that if both the dishwasher and the water
heater are on at the same time it will pop the breaker.
I am looking for a device that will allow the water heater to be on
until the diswasher starts drawing a certain amount of current, at which
point the power to the heater would be turned off.
The power to the dishwasher needs to be on all the time, only the
heater should be switched. A switch for the water heater cannot be
added. The solution needs to be plug and play and require no input from
anyone using the diswasher.
It seems to me that something like this must be available but I
can't think of what it would be called and my brain is apparently too
fuzzy this morning to get google to come up with something for me.
I am willing to build the device myself if need be but a purchased
product would be better.
Thanks,
Eric

If you are in North America, and that is a "duplex" receptacle, its
likeley to be an "appliance" outlet, that is, each side wired to a
separate breaker. Check the labelling in the box to find out, or measure
the voltage between the two "hot" connectors. 230V means you're good to
go.

Assuming the wiring is correct:
In the USA a standard duplex receptacle is wired for 120 volts.
A receptacle wired for 230 (240) will not be a duplex.

Ed

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 4:40:22 PM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

Point of use water heaters don't provide enough hot water to wash a
load of dishes.

Eric:

a) Unless you are using a dishwasher from the POS Manufacturing Company, Hangsen, China, it *DOES NOT NEED* very hot water to operate. The on-board heater (NSF requirement) will manage the difference between incoming water temperature and that necessary to clean the dishes.
b) And, if you are using a dishwasher made in the last 3 - 5 years, and from a reputable manufacturer, it will use very little water relative to hand-washing. So, if a POU device will be adequate for doing dishes in the sink, it will be equally adequate to supply a dishwasher.

As a point of comparison, our 10-year old Bosch (made in Tennessee) uses less than 4 gallons of water in the "Scrub-Paint-From-a-Board" mode, and about 0.870 KW of energy. Nor do we have to pre-wash the dishes. Anything smaller than cherry and softer than a hard nut will be handled. Advanced for its day, commonplace now.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 4:48:09 PM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

An instant water heater that only takes 7A, whether at 110 or 240v, is not going to produce a lot of hot water. Water heating is energy intensive.

And no dishwasher here is designed to support hot water intake.

Another hip-shot going wild.

a) The ECOSmart line here in the USA produces a 7A under-sink unit that produces 1.3 GPM (4.92 LPM) at a 50-degree F (10 C) rise. The idea is not to scald a user (110 F and up).

b) Dishwashers rated by the NSF (National Sanitation Foundation) will do the final rinse for a residential dishwasher at 165 F (74 C) minimum. Some go to 180 F as an option. Yes, they are to be required to be connected to the hot water line, if only to reduce stress on the internal heater.

http://www.nsf.org/consumer-resources/appliances/dishwashers

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 4:49:08 PM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

> I see you offer zero basis for this claim. It's just a basic demand management unit.

Nope, no basis whatsoever, other than the National Electrical Code as published by the NFPA out of Quincy, MA.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA