Does not have any harmonics

[John Fields]

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 15:36:10 -0800 (PST), bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

On Jan 2, 12:09 am, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 22:13:58 +0000, Eeyore

rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote:

karthikbalaguru wrote:

Hi,
Why does a sinusoidal waveform alone does not have any harmonics or
distortion ?

Because it doesn't. Read up 'simple harmonic motion'.

---
Q. "Daddy, why is the sky blue?"

A. "Because it is."

You were badly brought up.

---
Not at all.

In fact, my parents weren't technical at all, but they taught me
manners and that a library is a resource.
---

My parents told me that fine dust particles
suspended in the air scattered my short wavelength light - blue light
- than longer-wavelength light - the other colours.

It didn't make much sense to me at the time - I was around four - but
at least I wasn't mis-informed.

---
Unfortunately, you were and you're obviously still in the dark about
it, not having been able to give up what you were taught even though
the truth is glaringly obvious.

Here:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/BlueSky/blue_sky.html
---

In fact Eeyore has done a litttle better than your parents did -
"simple harmonic motion" as a search string does get you to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_harmonic_motion

which in turn points you to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_harmonic_motion

which gets you to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_analysis

which is probably where the OP needs to go, though they may need a
fair bit of education before they can get much out of it.

---
LOL, you're as bad as the fucking donkey with your less than helpful
links that, by your own admission, will probably be useless.


--
JF

 

[John Fields]

On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 23:52:25 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

John O'Flaherty wrote:

Distortion of a sine wave produces odd and/or even harmonics.

Not QUITE correct.

---
That's _precisely_ correct.

For instance, what happens when you run a perfect sine wave through
a diode?
---

Distortion as caused typically by non-linearities in a transfer
characteristic such as in an amplifier may be modelled and indeed measured
as harmonic distortion but the mechanism producing it is typically
producing a wide range of harmonic products of which typically only a few
may usually be considered of interest.

---
So what?

It's the nonlinearity of the transfer function which is causing the
distortion and, ergo, the generation of the harmonic products.


--
JF

 

[Buttered]

On Jan 2, 3:58 am, karthikbalaguru <karthikbalagur...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hi,
Why does a sinusoidal waveform alone does not have any harmonics or
distortion ?

For example, (Reference ->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waveform),
Sawtooth wave of constant period contains odd and even harmonics
Square wave of constant period  contains odd harmonics
Triangle wave, (an integral of square wave) contains odd harmonics

But, How is it possible that sinusoidal wave alone does not have any
harmonics or distortion ?
I searched the internet,but i did not find any link/pdf that talks in
detail about these .
Any ideas ?

Thx in advans,
Karthik Balaguru
Hi,

You may need to read or on some basic harmonic theory.

Waveforms that are symmetrical above and below their HORIZONTAL
CENTERLINES (does not necessaryly have to be at x-axis) contain no
even-numbered harmonics. Sawtooth wave is not symmetrical above and
below their horizontal centerlines hence you have both odd and even
harmonics.Whereas square and triangle wave is symmetrical above and
below their horizontal centerlines hence you only have odd-numbered
harmonics.
ref: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_7/4.html
--
M Zhafran

 

[John Fields]

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:06:56 +1100, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"Fred Bartoli"


It's more a matter of definition.


** No it is not - you posturing wanker.


If you were to decompose a sine wave on a triagular waveforms base (which
is as valid as the sine waves case),


** No it is not.

A sine wave uniquely has the property of no harmonics.

Unlike all other periodic waves, its shape is unaltered after passing
though any kind of filter.



....... Phil

---
Nice...


--
JF

 

[John Fields]

On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 00:14:47 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

John O'Flaherty wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
John O'Flaherty wrote:

Distortion of a sine wave produces odd and/or even harmonics.

Not QUITE correct.

Sorry, but I think it's exactly correct.

The non-linearities that are/cause distortion *result* in the production of
harmonics. They don't actually *make* harmonics.

It's a subtle distinction.

---
Bullshit.

O'Flaherty wrote:

"Distortion of a sine wave produces odd and/or even harmonics."

which, no matter how fine you slice it, is true.


--
JF

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

You were badly brought up. My parents told me that fine dust particles
suspended in the air scattered my short wavelength light - blue light
- than longer-wavelength light - the other colours.

I'll bet they told you that you were worth something, too.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[John Popelish]

karthikbalaguru wrote:

But, How is it possible that sinusoidal wave alone does not have any
harmonics or distortion ?
I searched the internet,but i did not find any link/pdf that talks in
detail about these .
Any ideas ?

Picture a rotating disk on a horizontal axis, with a dot
near its edge, and you are looking at that dot from the
axis. The disk is spinning at a fixed speed (constant
rotations per minute, perhaps), so its rotational cycle
represents a perfect single frequency.

The vertical height of the dot (with zero height being the
height of the axis) produces a perfect sine wave as time
passes, if you call time zero a moment when the dot was
beside the axis. The horizontal position of the dot, with
zero position being he axis, is a perfect cosine wave. So
either the sine wave or the cosine wave is a representation
of the single rotational frequency of the disk. The
combination of the sine and cosine components of the dot's
position completely describe its rotational cycle at one
pure frequency.

--
Regards,

John Popelish

 

[Clifford Heath]

Phil Allison wrote:

Unlike all other periodic waves, its shape is unaltered after passing
though any kind of filter.

.... as long as the filter consists only of passive/linear components .

 

[Tim Wescott]

On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 11:58:45 -0800, karthikbalaguru wrote:

Hi,
Why does a sinusoidal waveform alone does not have any harmonics or
distortion ?

For example, (Reference -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waveform),
Sawtooth wave of constant period contains odd and even harmonics Square
wave of constant period contains odd harmonics Triangle wave, (an
integral of square wave) contains odd harmonics

But, How is it possible that sinusoidal wave alone does not have any
harmonics or distortion ?
I searched the internet,but i did not find any link/pdf that talks in
detail about these .
Any ideas ?

Thx in advans,
Karthik Balaguru

Reading all the responses to this has been like hearing of all the wise,
blind men who are describing an elephant.

So, IMHO, an elephant is like a rope. And by the way, why is it suddenly
raining fertilizer?

At any rate, a sine wave doesn't have any because that's how harmonics
are defined. Harmonics are defined in the context of the Fourier series,
and the Fourier series for a pure sine wave is just -- that sine wave.
That's it, no more. Only a periodic wave that deviates from a perfect
sine wave can have harmonics, and (thanks to Fourier) we know that we can
express that periodic wave, if we so choose, as a sum of sine waves at
the fundamental frequency and all of it's multiples.

--
Tim Wescott
Control systems and communications consulting
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Need to learn how to apply control theory in your embedded system?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" by Tim Wescott
Elsevier/Newnes, http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

 

[Jon Slaughter]

"karthikbalaguru" <karthikbalaguru79@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b7c6948d-f327-4eaa-96fc-15034bfea320@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Hi,
Why does a sinusoidal waveform alone does not have any harmonics or
distortion ?

For example, (Reference -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waveform),
Sawtooth wave of constant period contains odd and even harmonics
Square wave of constant period contains odd harmonics
Triangle wave, (an integral of square wave) contains odd harmonics

But, How is it possible that sinusoidal wave alone does not have any
harmonics or distortion ?
I searched the internet,but i did not find any link/pdf that talks in
detail about these .
Any ideas ?

Thx in advans,
Karthik Balaguru

Most people have no clue what they are talking about.

Sinusodial's don't have "harmonics" because that is what we are using to
decompose the signal into. If it did then it wouldn't make any sense.

Basically we have some process, call it P, that when it acts on something
returns a decomposition into "special" objects say, S1, ..., Sn that depends
on that object.

Something like P(x) = S1(x) + ... + Sn(x)

But we expect that we we decompose one of the special objects we should get
it back... else it wouldn't be so special and mathematically wouldn't make
any sense.

Just so happens that sin waves have very nice properties but guess what? The
do have harmonics!!!?!?!?!! if you take your "special" objects as something
else(such as wavelets).

Basically there is a theorem in mathematics that says you can write any
function(well, there are some conditions) as a sum of sinusoids. This is
the decomposition. But its obvious that the only way to write a sinusoid in
terms of a sinusoid is the sinusoid itself. i.e., sin(x) === sin(x)... but
x^2 === sum(sinusoids).

All that stuff is whats called fourier analysis but in fact is much more
general. Wavelets do a similar thing by decomposing functions(signals) using
a different basis and a slightly different principle. In those systems one
might say that sinusoids do have harmonics because sinusoids are not
"simple".

If you are familiar with polynomials then its similar.

You might say that every function that is expressiable as a
polynomial(taylor series, for example), has polynomial harmonics... but the
simple function x, x^2, x^3, etc... have no harmonics. Why? Because they are
simple in that system. They are not simple in when the basis is
sinusoids.(just as sinusoids are not simple when the basis is polynomials)

In short, your answer is that it does have sinusoidal harmonics... they are
all just zero.

 

[Eeyore]

John Fields wrote:

bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

In fact Eeyore has done a litttle better than your parents did -
"simple harmonic motion" as a search string does get you to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_harmonic_motion

which in turn points you to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_harmonic_motion

which gets you to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_analysis

which is probably where the OP needs to go, though they may need a
fair bit of education before they can get much out of it.

---
LOL, you're as bad as the fucking donkey with your less than helpful
links that, by your own admission, will probably be useless.

You think sinewaves AREN'T simple harmonic motion ?

Fairly shitty education you must have had.

Graham

 

On Jan 2, 1:38 am, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 15:36:10 -0800 (PST), bill.slo...@ieee.org wrote:
On Jan 2, 12:09 am, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 22:13:58 +0000, Eeyore

rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote:

karthikbalaguru wrote:

Hi,
Why does a sinusoidal waveform alone does not have any harmonics or
distortion ?

Because it doesn't. Read up 'simple harmonic motion'.

---
Q. "Daddy, why is the sky blue?"

A. "Because it is."

You were badly brought up.

---
Not at all.

In fact, my parents weren't technical at all, but they taught me
manners and that a library is a resource.
---

Pity that the education didn't take.

My parents told me that fine dust particles
suspended in the air scattered my short wavelength light - blue light
- than longer-wavelength light - the other colours.

It didn't make much sense to me at the time - I was around four - but
at least I wasn't mis-informed.

---
Unfortunately, you were

How?

and you're obviously still in the dark about it, not having been able to give up what you were taught even though the truth is glaringly obvious.

A deceitful claim that you won't be able to sustain.

Here:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/BlueSky/blue_sky.html
---

And where does this story differ significantly from the one I was
told? Tyndall and Rayleigh (John William Strutt) are great names, but
not of much use to four-year-olds.

In fact Eeyore has done a litttle better than your parents did -
"simple harmonic motion" as a search string does get you to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_harmonic_motion

which in turn points you to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_harmonic_motion

which gets you to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_analysis

which is probably where the OP needs to go, though they may need a
fair bit of education before they can get much out of it.

---
LOL, you're as bad as the fucking donkey with your less than helpful
links that, by your own admission, will probably be useless.

They would certainly be useless to you. The OP may not have had to
struggle with the Texas indoctrination system and might have less of a
problem with chardonnay abuse.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

 

On Jan 2, 2:30 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

bill.slo...@ieee.org wrote:

You were badly brought up. My parents told me that fine dust particles
suspended in the air scattered my short wavelength light - blue light
- than longer-wavelength light - the other colours.

   I'll bet they told you that you were worth something, too.

That the elementary chemicals in the human body were worth about six
pence. It was a joke.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

 

On Jan 2, 2:07 am, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 00:14:47 +0000, Eeyore





rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote:

John O'Flaherty wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
John O'Flaherty wrote:

Distortion of a sine wave produces odd and/or even harmonics.

Not QUITE correct.

Sorry, but I think it's exactly correct.

The non-linearities that are/cause distortion *result* in the production of
harmonics. They don't actually *make* harmonics.

It's a subtle distinction.

---
Bullshit.

O'Flaherty wrote:

"Distortion of a sine wave produces odd and/or even harmonics."

which, no matter how fine you slice it, is true.

For people who aren't in the habit of choosing their words carefully.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

 

[John Fields]

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 01:10:55 -0800 (PST), bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

On Jan 2, 1:38 am, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 15:36:10 -0800 (PST), bill.slo...@ieee.org wrote:
On Jan 2, 12:09 am, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 22:13:58 +0000, Eeyore

rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote:

karthikbalaguru wrote:

Hi,
Why does a sinusoidal waveform alone does not have any harmonics or
distortion ?

Because it doesn't. Read up 'simple harmonic motion'.

---
Q. "Daddy, why is the sky blue?"

A. "Because it is."

You were badly brought up.

---
Not at all.

In fact, my parents weren't technical at all, but they taught me
manners and that a library is a resource.
---

Pity that the education didn't take.

My parents told me that fine dust particles
suspended in the air scattered my short wavelength light - blue light
- than longer-wavelength light - the other colours.

It didn't make much sense to me at the time - I was around four - but
at least I wasn't mis-informed.

---
Unfortunately, you were

How?

and you're obviously still in the dark about it, not having been able to give up what you were taught even though the truth is glaringly obvious.

A deceitful claim that you won't be able to sustain.

Here:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/BlueSky/blue_sky.html
---

And where does this story differ significantly from the one I was
told?

---
Bad reading comprehension I see, as well.
---

Tyndall and Rayleigh (John William Strutt) are great names, but
not of much use to four-year-olds.

---
About as much use as the dust mote story which you admittedly didn't
understand either.
---

In fact Eeyore has done a litttle better than your parents did -
"simple harmonic motion" as a search string does get you to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_harmonic_motion

which in turn points you to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_harmonic_motion

which gets you to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_analysis

which is probably where the OP needs to go, though they may need a
fair bit of education before they can get much out of it.

---
LOL, you're as bad as the fucking donkey with your less than helpful
links that, by your own admission, will probably be useless.

They would certainly be useless to you. The OP may not have had to
struggle with the Texas indoctrination system and might have less of a
problem with chardonnay abuse.

---
Grasping at straws, Billy boy?


--
JF

 

[Don Bowey]

On 1/1/08 11:30 PM, in article
94Hej.1278$pA7.1275@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net, "Jon Slaughter"
<Jon_Slaughter@Hotmail.com> wrote:

"karthikbalaguru" <karthikbalaguru79@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b7c6948d-f327-4eaa-96fc-15034bfea320@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Hi,
Why does a sinusoidal waveform alone does not have any harmonics or
distortion ?

For example, (Reference -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waveform),
Sawtooth wave of constant period contains odd and even harmonics
Square wave of constant period contains odd harmonics
Triangle wave, (an integral of square wave) contains odd harmonics

But, How is it possible that sinusoidal wave alone does not have any
harmonics or distortion ?
I searched the internet,but i did not find any link/pdf that talks in
detail about these .
Any ideas ?

Thx in advans,
Karthik Balaguru



Most people have no clue what they are talking about.

Sinusodial's don't have "harmonics" because that is what we are using to
decompose the signal into. If it did then it wouldn't make any sense.

Basically we have some process, call it P, that when it acts on something
returns a decomposition into "special" objects say, S1, ..., Sn that depends
on that object.

Something like P(x) = S1(x) + ... + Sn(x)

But we expect that we we decompose one of the special objects we should get
it back... else it wouldn't be so special and mathematically wouldn't make
any sense.

Just so happens that sin waves have very nice properties but guess what? The
do have harmonics!!!?!?!?!! if you take your "special" objects as something
else(such as wavelets).

Basically there is a theorem in mathematics that says you can write any
function(well, there are some conditions) as a sum of sinusoids. This is
the decomposition. But its obvious that the only way to write a sinusoid in
terms of a sinusoid is the sinusoid itself. i.e., sin(x) === sin(x)... but
x^2 === sum(sinusoids).

All that stuff is whats called fourier analysis but in fact is much more
general. Wavelets do a similar thing by decomposing functions(signals) using
a different basis and a slightly different principle. In those systems one
might say that sinusoids do have harmonics because sinusoids are not
"simple".

If you are familiar with polynomials then its similar.

You might say that every function that is expressiable as a
polynomial(taylor series, for example), has polynomial harmonics... but the
simple function x, x^2, x^3, etc... have no harmonics. Why? Because they are
simple in that system. They are not simple in when the basis is
sinusoids.(just as sinusoids are not simple when the basis is polynomials)

In short, your answer is that it does have sinusoidal harmonics... they are
all just zero.

As is the help you gave the OP.

 

[Martin Brown]

On Jan 2, 9:10 am, bill.slo...@ieee.org wrote:

On Jan 2, 1:38 am, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 15:36:10 -0800 (PST), bill.slo...@ieee.org wrote:

My parents told me that fine dust particles
suspended in the air scattered my short wavelength light - blue light
- than longer-wavelength light - the other colours.

It didn't make much sense to me at the time - I was around four - but
at least I wasn't mis-informed.

---
Unfortunately, you were

How?

Most dust is usually too large for Rayleigh scattering. Only extremely
fine nano-particles or smaller can cause wavelength dependent Rayleigh
scattering. The blue sky is seen due to scattering from the air
molecules (which are very much smaller than the wavelength of light).
It is also quite strongly polarised.

Dust and other particles larger than the wavelength of light Mie
scattering predominates (which isn't wavelength dependent). Only at
shallow angles near to the sun does Mie scattering in the atmosphere
become significantly visible. Although it can be dominant when
extremely rare and colourful stratospheric nacreous clouds are
present.

and you're obviously still in the dark about it, not having been able to give up what you were taught even though the truth is glaringly obvious.

A deceitful claim that you won't be able to sustain.

Here:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/BlueSky/blue_sky.html
---

And where does this story differ significantly from the one I was
told? Tyndall and Rayleigh (John William Strutt) are great names, but
not of much use to four-year-olds.

This one apart from the equations probably is about the nicest online
description with pictures.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/atmos/blusky.html

Best wishes to all for a prosperous 2008.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[MooseFET]

On Jan 1, 3:46 pm, John O'Flaherty <quias...@yeeha.com> wrote:
[....]

Odd and even harmonics are themselves pure sine waves that are
frequency multiples of a fundamental sine wave. Distortion of a sine
wave produces odd and/or even harmonics.

Place "time independent" in front of "distortion" for a more accurate
answer. An extreme example of the case is:

1N400X
IN--->!----+------Scope
!
)
) 680uH
)
!
GND

Tune the signal generator for resonance between the diode and the
inductor and adjusts tha amplitude around 1V and observe.


So, sine waves are

irreducible pure signals that other signals can be analyzed into.

--
John

 

[Rich Grise]

On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 15:36:10 -0800, bill.sloman wrote:

On Jan 2, 12:09 am, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 22:13:58 +0000, Eeyore
karthikbalaguru wrote:

Hi,
Why does a sinusoidal waveform alone does not have any harmonics or
distortion ?

Because it doesn't. Read up 'simple harmonic motion'.

Q. "Daddy, why is the sky blue?"

A. "Because it is."

You were badly brought up. My parents told me that fine dust particles
suspended in the air scattered my short wavelength light - blue light -
than longer-wavelength light - the other colours.

In short, because air is blue.

But that's *HOW* the sky is blue.

Nobody knows *WHY*, other than "because that's the way it is."

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Fleetie]

Q. "Daddy, why is the sky blue?"

A. "Because it is."

You were badly brought up. My parents told me that fine dust particles
suspended in the air scattered my short wavelength light - blue light -
than longer-wavelength light - the other colours.

In short, because air is blue.

NO.

Surely you know of Rayleigh scattering.

It doesn't require DUST in the air for the skyy to look blue. The very air molecules
themselves are sufficient.

ALSO: Wiki "water", and you'll find that pure H2O is blue-green in colour, i.e. in
its absorption spectrum. That blue-green colour arises from TWO mechanisms:

1) Optical absorption from bend/stretch/whatever in Willy Water Molecule (who is
bent!)

2) Rayleigh scattering from the molecules themselves.

Interestingly, D2O (heavy water) only exhibits effect (2) within the visible part
of the EM spectrum so should look LESS blue than H2O. That is because the
higher mass of the D atoms shifts the frequencies into the IR region.

H2O absorbs ONE HUNDRED TIMES more at the far red end of visible than at
the far blue end. Quite interesting!

Nobody knows *WHY*, other than "because that's the way it is."

Not true at all; see above and Wikipedia.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=fleetie