Dialer problem with a picchip

[lerameur]

On Sep 2, 10:43 pm, JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote:

lerameurwrote:
Here is the diagram.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/captoro/dialer.jpg

1) When capturing a line drawing, DON"T use JPEG.http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:b6q8ggynLcMJ:webdesign.about.com...

2) As Jamie noted, you don't even know the difference
(electrically) between on-hook and off-hook .

OK, you say so...

3) As Mianowski noted, to know what is happing at the other end,
you have to be able to *listen* to it.
Your regular old transformer won't do that well.http://www.google.com/images?q=hybrid-transformer

Again, reading a book on the basics would be useful.
Ok which one? I bought two books and none of them go technical about

the frequencies of dial tone and busy signal, and not even close to
giving out out the on /off hook voltage. which I found out another way
' On Hook: 40 to 50 VDC
' Off Hook: 4 to 6 VDC
' Ringing: 100 VAC

I will keep using jpg, Gif can be animated which could be a potential
source of virus (which can prevent from people wanting to view the
file) and yes I have seen gif with virus .

 

[lerameur]

On Sep 3, 6:07 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

lerameurwrote:
Here is the diagram.
It do not dial without the 9 Oh

m resistor...
http://www3.sympatico.ca/captoro/dialer.jpg

Almost certainly your voltage level is wrong initially.

Put a voltage divider between the PIC and the MAX 7480 to reduce the signal level. Try
about 20% of the PIC's output.

Graham

From the spec sheet it says voltage between 2.5 and 5.5 v, therefore I
thought the output of a pic would be suitable.
from the circuits they dont seem to go that low, but its worth to try,
thanks

http://hackedgadgets.com/2007/03/27/alarm-phone-dialer/
http://www.geocities.com/constantinescuradu/content/dtmfrem/dtmf_trafo_300bw.png
http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~snematbakhsh/dialer/
http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/teleinterface.html

K

 

[lerameur]

On Sep 3, 11:09 am, Don Bowey <dbo...@comcast.net> wrote:

On 9/3/08 6:27 AM, in article
ce68e9f5-20d4-49b3-aa09-bf9715408...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com,



"lerameur" <leram...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Sep 2, 10:43 pm, JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote:
lerameurwrote:
Here is the diagram.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/captoro/dialer.jpg

1) When capturing a line drawing, DON"T use
JPEG.http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:b6q8ggynLcMJ:webdesign.about.com...

2) As Jamie noted, you don't even know the difference
(electrically) between on-hook and off-hook .

OK, you say so...

3) As Mianowski noted, to know what is happing at the other end,
you have to be able to *listen* to it.
Your regular old transformer won't do that
well.http://www.google.com/images?q=hybrid-transformer

Again, reading a book on the basics would be useful.
Ok which one? I bought two books and none of them go technical about
the frequencies of dial tone and  busy signal,

Typical for a "modern" office in the US and probably Canada, is a set of
signals called "Precise to signals:

Dial Tone:  350 Hz + 440 Hz, nominal maximum deviation +- 0.7% per
frequency.

Line Busy tone:  480 Hz + 620 Hz, nominal maximum deviation +- 1.5% per
frequency.  Timing is 60 ipm, 0.5 sec on, 0.5 sec off, 10% tolerance on all
parameters.

Audible ringing tone:  440 Hz + 480 Hz, nominal maximum deviation +- 1.6%
per frequency.

and not even close to
giving out out the on /off hook voltage. which I found out another way
' On Hook: 40 to 50 VDC

Nominal On Hook voltage will be 52V.

' Off Hook: 4 to 6 VDC

Off hook voltage should never be less than about 6.6V, and it can be
considerably higher depending on the Telco serving arrangement including the
length of their cable pair.  The DC circuit path provided by the "telephone
device" may have a resistance of 200 or 330 Ohms.  The lower value may be
used by devices using DP signaling, and 330 Ohms may be used for tone
signaling devices.  If your tone signaling device doesn't use Network loop
current, I suppose the DC path of your devise can be anywhere between the
two.

' Ringing: 100 VAC

The most common ring signal is 20 Hz, +- 3 Hz with an AC magnitude (at the
NI) of 30 to 106 V rms superimposed on a DC voltage of less than 80 V.
Newest ring generators spec at 20 Hz +- 1 Hz.

Would this voltage be on the receiving end ( for the 20Hz and 30 to
106 v) ?
if so then I am mostly concerned with the sending end, which I have
read so far receives a dual frequency, just as in the DTMF
generation.
I have been reading up on call progress chip at
http://www.clare.com/Products/callprogress.htm
Decoding could be done with DSP onto a Pic chip, Maybe JeffM would
have such an algorithm ?

Ken

 

[Don Bowey]

On 9/3/08 8:38 AM, in article
28dffa1a-447f-44c2-b54a-010a153d62f3@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com, "lerameur"
<lerameur@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Sep 3, 11:09 am, Don Bowey <dbo...@comcast.net> wrote:
On 9/3/08 6:27 AM, in article
ce68e9f5-20d4-49b3-aa09-bf9715408...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com,



"lerameur" <leram...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Sep 2, 10:43 pm, JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote:
lerameurwrote:
Here is the diagram.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/captoro/dialer.jpg

1) When capturing a line drawing, DON"T use
JPEG.http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:b6q8ggynLcMJ:webdesign.about.com.
..

2) As Jamie noted, you don't even know the difference
(electrically) between on-hook and off-hook .

OK, you say so...

3) As Mianowski noted, to know what is happing at the other end,
you have to be able to *listen* to it.
Your regular old transformer won't do that
well.http://www.google.com/images?q=hybrid-transformer

Again, reading a book on the basics would be useful.
Ok which one? I bought two books and none of them go technical about
the frequencies of dial tone and  busy signal,

Typical for a "modern" office in the US and probably Canada, is a set of
signals called "Precise to signals:

Dial Tone:  350 Hz + 440 Hz, nominal maximum deviation +- 0.7% per
frequency.

Line Busy tone:  480 Hz + 620 Hz, nominal maximum deviation +- 1.5% per
frequency.  Timing is 60 ipm, 0.5 sec on, 0.5 sec off, 10% tolerance on all
parameters.

Audible ringing tone:  440 Hz + 480 Hz, nominal maximum deviation +- 1.6%
per frequency.

and not even close to
giving out out the on /off hook voltage. which I found out another way
' On Hook: 40 to 50 VDC

Nominal On Hook voltage will be 52V.

' Off Hook: 4 to 6 VDC

Off hook voltage should never be less than about 6.6V, and it can be
considerably higher depending on the Telco serving arrangement including the
length of their cable pair.  The DC circuit path provided by the "telephone
device" may have a resistance of 200 or 330 Ohms.  The lower value may be
used by devices using DP signaling, and 330 Ohms may be used for tone
signaling devices.  If your tone signaling device doesn't use Network loop
current, I suppose the DC path of your devise can be anywhere between the
two.

' Ringing: 100 VAC

The most common ring signal is 20 Hz, +- 3 Hz with an AC magnitude (at the
NI) of 30 to 106 V rms superimposed on a DC voltage of less than 80 V.
Newest ring generators spec at 20 Hz +- 1 Hz.

Would this voltage be on the receiving end ( for the 20Hz and 30 to
106 v) ?

Yes. At the Network Interface at the customer premises being called.

if so then I am mostly concerned with the sending end, which I have
read so far receives a dual frequency, just as in the DTMF
generation.

From my original reply: Audible ringing tone:  440 Hz + 480 Hz, nominal
maximum deviation +- 1.6% per frequency.

This is the signal you hear after the call is originated, and the phone at
the other end is ringing.

I have been reading up on call progress chip at
http://www.clare.com/Products/callprogress.htm
Decoding could be done with DSP onto a Pic chip, Maybe JeffM would
have such an algorithm ?

Ken

 

[JeffM]

lerameur wrote:
I bought two books and none of them go technical about
the frequencies of dial tone and busy signal,

Telephony existed before tones were used.

You aren't even understanding the BASIC, LEGACY stuff.

Don Bowey wrote:

Dial Tone[...]
Line Busy tone[...]
Audible ringing tone[...]

While all of that is needed for the project,

his initial problem is even more fundamental.

and not even close to giving out out the on /off hook voltage.

On-Hook and Off-Hook are NOT *voltage* specifications.

which I found out another way ' On Hook: 40 to 50 VDC
Nominal On Hook voltage will be 52V.

You may find those numbers useful, but they are NOT the spec.

' Off Hook: 4 to 6 VDC

To repeat:

On-hook and Off-hook are NOT *voltage* specifications.
(Think about the long lines of varying lengths that go to
subscribers.)
http://www.google.com/search?q=on-hook-threshold-*-mA

I will keep using jpg,

You are a selfish dumb-ass.

Gif can be animated which could be a potential source of virus
(which can prevent from people wanting to view the file)
and yes I have seen gif with virus .

Just silly; ANY file can be infected.[1]

If you're nervous about GIF, capture in PNG. JPEG is stupid for this.
It gives lousy results visually and makes unnecessarily large files.
..
..
[1] If the morons in Redmond would seperate *data* from *code*,
this wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Don Bowey]

On 9/3/08 11:58 AM, in article
935af1c8-0f89-4626-b6a5-aee9e07e1745@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com, "JeffM"
<jeffm_@email.com> wrote:

lerameur wrote:
I bought two books and none of them go technical about
the frequencies of dial tone and busy signal,

Telephony existed before tones were used.
You aren't even understanding the BASIC, LEGACY stuff.

Don Bowey wrote:
Typical for a "modern" office in the US and probably Canada, is[...]
Dial Tone[...]
Line Busy tone[...]
Audible ringing tone[...]

While all of that is needed for the project,
his initial problem is even more fundamental.

It doesn't hurt to have correct info available while he's playing catch-up
with how to use it.

and not even close to giving out out the on /off hook voltage.

On-Hook and Off-Hook are NOT *voltage* specifications.

They are "states" for which there are voltage values. The specs for each
state are useful information given in CFR 47, Part 68 and in the ANSI
Standard for loop-start and ground-start lines.

which I found out another way ' On Hook: 40 to 50 VDC
Nominal On Hook voltage will be 52V.

You may find those numbers useful, but they are NOT the spec.

See above, and "Voltage condition: -49 volts ą 3 volts in on-hook" From
the equipment spec you provided the link to.

' Off Hook: 4 to 6 VDC

To repeat:
On-hook and Off-hook are NOT *voltage* specifications.
(Think about the long lines of varying lengths that go to
subscribers.)
http://www.google.com/search?q=on-hook-threshold-*-mA

I will keep using jpg,

You are a selfish dumb-ass.

Gif can be animated which could be a potential source of virus
(which can prevent from people wanting to view the file)
and yes I have seen gif with virus .

Just silly; ANY file can be infected.[1]
If you're nervous about GIF, capture in PNG. JPEG is stupid for this.
It gives lousy results visually and makes unnecessarily large files.
.
.
[1] If the morons in Redmond would seperate *data* from *code*,
this wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2008-09-03, lerameur <lerameur@yahoo.com> wrote:

3) As Mianowski noted, to know what is happing at the other end,
you have to be able to *listen* to it.
Your regular old transformer won't do that well.http://www.google.com/images?q=hybrid-transformer

Again, reading a book on the basics would be useful.
Ok which one? I bought two books and none of them go technical about
the frequencies of dial tone and busy signal, and not even close to
giving out out the on /off hook voltage. which I found out another way
' On Hook: 40 to 50 VDC
' Off Hook: 4 to 6 VDC
' Ringing: 100 VAC

I will keep using jpg, Gif can be animated which could be a potential
source of virus (which can prevent from people wanting to view the
file) and yes I have seen gif with virus .

jpegs are no safer than gifs there have been exploits in faulty
software for displaying both, both standards ar 20 years old and i
think all sofware used these days is safe.

neither gif nor jpeg by design can contain live executable code

Bye.
Jasen

 

[Eeyore]

lerameur wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
lerameurwrote:
Here is the diagram.
It do not dial without the 9 Oh

m resistor...
http://www3.sympatico.ca/captoro/dialer.jpg

Almost certainly your voltage level is wrong initially.

Put a voltage divider between the PIC and the MAX 7480 to reduce the signal level. > Try
about 20% of the PIC's output.

From the spec sheet

Link please ?

it says voltage between 2.5 and 5.5 v, therefore I
thought the output of a pic would be suitable.

WHAT SPEC SHEET ? Are you an IMBECILE ?

I told you where to get the DTMF specs and you clearly you didn't bother.You're a classic
example of trying to run before you can walk.

Look at the voltage outputs on this old DTMF dialler chip !
http://wulfden.org/downloads/datasheets/TP5088.pdf

We're talking several hundred MILLIVOLTS not bloody 5V pk-pk.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

lerameur wrote:

I bought two books

Why ?

It's all on the net ! Don't you know how to use Google ?

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

JeffM wrote:

lerameur wrote:
I bought two books and none of them go technical about
the frequencies of dial tone and busy signal,

Telephony existed before tones were used.
You aren't even understanding the BASIC, LEGACY stuff.

I wonder if he even knows V=IR !

Graham

 

[Charlie Siegrist]

On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 19:43:30 -0700 (PDT), JeffM <jeffm_@email.com>
wrote:

<quoted from OP's post>

lerameur wrote:
Here is the diagram.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/captoro/dialer.jpg

Ack! Get rid of that 9 ohm resistor! NEVER bypass transformer
isolation, either in design or in testing, it's there for a reason.
I've seen bad, bad things happen from that sort of mis-application.

Again, reading a book on the basics would be useful.
Characterizing *what exists* and determining an interface
should have come first.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Eeyore]

JeffM wrote:

Like so many folks, you started at the wrong end of the project
(like the guy that wanted to use rechargeable batteries to run LEDs
but didn't know what the *energy demand* would be
because he hadn't even picked a LED).

Happens all too often these days.

Graham