Dead Electrical

[Ian Field]

"Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney" <Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait-McKinney.com> wrote in
message news:S7GdnZ9Ef_o5bp7KnZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@earthlink.com...

Out of the blue, I turned the ignition key and the started jerked and
stopped. Next turn solenoid clicked only. After that no sound on turning
key. No radio, panel lights, headlights, etc.

My guess at this point is that there is a bad negative ground.

No ongoing symptoms before today. Battery is new and checks out as fully
charged. Voltage OK at the solenoid relay on the inside wall.

Searched last night for a main fuse or fusible links. Wiring diagrams
show them but do not tell where to look for them. I assume close to the
battery -- will spend some time now looking and TS with a meter.

Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.

Sounds like corrosion wherever the big earth cable from the battery gets
bolted to the chassis.

All the fuses are low current circuits (compared to the starter motor). A
common location for the fuse panel was on the bulkhead behind the engine -
nowadays more likely to be somewhere in or around the glove compartment.
Sometimes behind a removable panel beside the driver's footwell.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 04/06/2016 08:42 AM, Tim R wrote:

On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 at 10:41:13 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Rheilly Phoull" <rheilly@bigslong.com> wrote in message
newsrCdnTUO-6Ix-ZnKnZ2dnUU7-b-dnZ2d@westnet.com.au...

Have you got some dirt or oil/grease on the battery posts? That's what it
sounds like to me.

So when is grease on the terminals bad ??

When it gets between the battery post and the clamp.

If it is on the outside it is fine.

Conventional wisdom says when you tighten it down the grease gets squeezed out and there is direct metal to metal contact.

Whether that's based on data or not I don't know. But that's the way mechanics do it successfully.

Of course air is a better insulator than grease.

The actual metal-to-metal contact area is surprisingly small--it's
roughly equal to the total preload divided by the yield strength of the
weaker material. As long as the grease can get out of the way of the
high spots that actually do the conducting, it won't hurt the conductance.

What it will do is keep acid out of the joint, which is a win.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:51:18 -0500, amdx wrote:

Just to expound on the key off and on. If indeed the solenoid pulls
in, THEN is when you need to find the fault, current needs to flow to
find to find the bad connection. If you have 0.06 ohms of resistance in
a battery/starter circuit and the starter tries to draw 200 amps, there
is 12 volts dropped across your battery connection.*
You won't be able to measure 0.06 ohms.

At 200A, even one miliohm of connection resistance is going to waste 40W
of battery power.

 

[John-Del]

On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 7:43:17 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 04/06/2016 08:42 AM, Tim R wrote:
On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 at 10:41:13 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Rheilly Phoull" <rheilly@bigslong.com> wrote in message
newsrCdnTUO-6Ix-ZnKnZ2dnUU7-b-dnZ2d@westnet.com.au...

Have you got some dirt or oil/grease on the battery posts? That's what it
sounds like to me.

So when is grease on the terminals bad ??

When it gets between the battery post and the clamp.

If it is on the outside it is fine.

Conventional wisdom says when you tighten it down the grease gets squeezed out and there is direct metal to metal contact.

Whether that's based on data or not I don't know. But that's the way mechanics do it successfully.


Of course air is a better insulator than grease.

The actual metal-to-metal contact area is surprisingly small--it's
roughly equal to the total preload divided by the yield strength of the
weaker material. As long as the grease can get out of the way of the
high spots that actually do the conducting, it won't hurt the conductance..

What it will do is keep acid out of the joint, which is a win.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

I have always put a coating of low viscosity grease on the battery and terminal, then wiped it out. The small of amount of lubricant left will be displaced at the actual contact points over the surface of both by the clamping force and left to fill the tiny pockets of what otherwise be air and moisture. I have never had a car battery contact problem ever.

 

[Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinn]

On Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:51:18 -0500, amdx wrote:

Just to expound on the key off and on. If indeed the solenoid pulls
in, THEN is when you need to find the fault, current needs to flow to
find to find the bad connection. If you have 0.06 ohms of resistance in
a battery/starter circuit and the starter tries to draw 200 amps, there
is 12 volts dropped across your battery connection.*
You won't be able to measure 0.06 ohms.

Before and after cleaning all the connections in the starting circuit the voltage drop during starting is about the same - less than 3V.

 

[Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinn]

"Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney" <Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait-McKinney.com> wrote in message news:3KCdnSZgK6giGpvKnZ2dnUU7-N3NnZ2d@earthlink.com...
On Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:51:18 -0500, amdx wrote:

Just to expound on the key off and on. If indeed the solenoid pulls
in, THEN is when you need to find the fault, current needs to flow to
find to find the bad connection. If you have 0.06 ohms of resistance in
a battery/starter circuit and the starter tries to draw 200 amps, there
is 12 volts dropped across your battery connection.*
You won't be able to measure 0.06 ohms.

Before and after cleaning all the connections in the starting circuit the voltage drop during starting is about the same - less than 3V.

I meant to add that all the connections were tight but several had various levels of corrosion. After cleaning the overall resistance from pos or neg battery post to starter or block block went from around 1.9 to 1.4 ohms. That's not enough to prevent starting, but I suspect that one of the connections was intermittent.

 

[Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinn]

"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message news:uIOdnd1oj4-SApjKnZ2dnUU7-UednZ2d@supernews.com...

On 04/06/2016 08:42 AM, Tim R wrote:
On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 at 10:41:13 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Rheilly Phoull" <rheilly@bigslong.com> wrote in message
newsrCdnTUO-6Ix-ZnKnZ2dnUU7-b-dnZ2d@westnet.com.au...

Have you got some dirt or oil/grease on the battery posts? That's what it
sounds like to me.

So when is grease on the terminals bad ??

When it gets between the battery post and the clamp.

If it is on the outside it is fine.

Conventional wisdom says when you tighten it down the grease gets squeezed out and there is direct metal to metal contact.

Whether that's based on data or not I don't know. But that's the way mechanics do it successfully.


Of course air is a better insulator than grease.

The actual metal-to-metal contact area is surprisingly small--it's
roughly equal to the total preload divided by the yield strength of the
weaker material. As long as the grease can get out of the way of the
high spots that actually do the conducting, it won't hurt the conductance.

What it will do is keep acid out of the joint, which is a win.

Cheers

If there any chance of liquid getting in a connection and the leak can't be prevented, I would move the connection, or solder and shrink wrap it. I'm not a big fan of greasing electrical connections.

 

[Ian Field]

"Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney" <Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait-McKinney.com> wrote in
message news:zM6dnZ0G-_SegZnKnZ2dnUU7-LdQAAAA@earthlink.com...

pfjw@aol.com> wrote in message
news:007dd25d-afe0-4347-8e3d-eda009c6ca14@googlegroups.com...
On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 at 1:19:36 PM UTC-4, Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney
wrote:
Out of the blue, I turned the ignition key and the started jerked and
stopped. Next turn solenoid clicked only. After that no sound on
turning key. No radio, panel lights, headlights, etc.

My guess at this point is that there is a bad negative ground.

No ongoing symptoms before today. Battery is new and checks out as fully
charged. Voltage OK at the solenoid relay on the inside wall.

Searched last night for a main fuse or fusible links. Wiring diagrams
show them but do not tell where to look for them. I assume close to the
battery -- will spend some time now looking and TS with a meter.

Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.

They will be (typically) some sort of little black box mounted on the
firewall, or somewhere near the main fuse box or battery, it may look like
a fancy connector as well. But it will be there. There will be no such
thing on the ground side. Only on the + side.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


Thanks, I looked and didn't see it yet. Hot battery terminal has one
large and one small wire, both going directly to the solenoid relay
mounted on the side wall. No voltage drop between battery post and relay
connection.

Ground the negative probe of a voltmeter to some clean metal part of the
engine block and the positive probe to the negative battery post - if the
post swings negative under load; you've got a bad earth.

On motorcycles, I've had bad earths between engine and frame - I've no idea
whether or not that can happen on a car. But I'd assume anythings possible.

 

[Ian Field]

"Cursitor Doom" <curd@notformail.com> wrote in message
news:ne5a4h$hls$2@dont-email.me...

On Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:51:18 -0500, amdx wrote:

Just to expound on the key off and on. If indeed the solenoid pulls
in, THEN is when you need to find the fault, current needs to flow to
find to find the bad connection. If you have 0.06 ohms of resistance in
a battery/starter circuit and the starter tries to draw 200 amps, there
is 12 volts dropped across your battery connection.*
You won't be able to measure 0.06 ohms.

At 200A, even one miliohm of connection resistance is going to waste 40W
of battery power.

Even "not that bad" dodgy connections can waste a fair bit of power.

Unless the engine bay is immaculately clean - that heat usually produces a
whisp of smoke.

40W is more than a lot of soldering irons, they'd smoke if they had traces
of oil on them.

 

[Ralph Mowery]

"Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney" <Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait->Before and after
cleaning all the connections in the starting >circuit the voltage drop
during starting is about the same - >less than 3V.

I meant to add that all the connections were tight but several >had various
levels of corrosion. After cleaning the >overall .resistance from pos or
neg battery post to starter or >block block went from around 1.9 to 1.4
ohms. That's not >enough to prevent starting, but I suspect that one of
the .connections was intermittent.

Chances are the 1.9 and 1.4 ohms are some meter error problems such as the
leads not making good connection to the points they are measuring.

As large and as short as the wires are you should have way less than one ohm
of resistance, even less than .1 of an ohm.

If you had 1.4 ohms of resistance before the starter, it would never turn.
The starter has less than .1 ohms of resistance. Almost all the voltage
would be dropped in that 1.4 ohms and none left for the starter. With just
1.2 ohms of resistance you could only have 10 amps of current for the
starter, hardly enough to make it spin.

As this is electronics repair, anyone on here should be able to apply basic
Ohms law to see this.

 

[Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinn]

"Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28146@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:Cv2dnSF9JYmPApvKnZ2dnUU7-cvNnZ2d@earthlink.com...

"Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney" <Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait->Before and after
cleaning all the connections in the starting >circuit the voltage drop
during starting is about the same - >less than 3V.

I meant to add that all the connections were tight but several >had various
levels of corrosion. After cleaning the >overall .resistance from pos or
neg battery post to starter or >block block went from around 1.9 to 1.4
ohms. That's not >enough to prevent starting, but I suspect that one of
the .connections was intermittent.

Chances are the 1.9 and 1.4 ohms are some meter error problems such as the
leads not making good connection to the points they are measuring.

As large and as short as the wires are you should have way less than one ohm
of resistance, even less than .1 of an ohm.

If you had 1.4 ohms of resistance before the starter, it would never turn.
The starter has less than .1 ohms of resistance. Almost all the voltage
would be dropped in that 1.4 ohms and none left for the starter. With just
1.2 ohms of resistance you could only have 10 amps of current for the
starter, hardly enough to make it spin.

As this is electronics repair, anyone on here should be able to apply basic
Ohms law to see this.

Yes, you're right. The zero was offset on the meter. Measuring again showed resistance is lower than the detectable value for this meter. Thanks.

 

[Ralph Mowery]

"Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney" <Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait-McKinney.com> wrote in
message news:U-6dnf-rl94yVZvKnZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@earthlink.com...

Yes, you're right. The zero was offset on the meter. Measuring again
showed resistance is lower than the detectable value for this meter.
Thanks.

The old faital fail to zero out the ohm meter error. Hapens to the best of
us sometimes.

 

[Ian Field]

"Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28146@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:g6adnXrxA6DTVpvKnZ2dnUU7-Y_NnZ2d@earthlink.com...

"Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney" <Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait-McKinney.com> wrote
in message news:U-6dnf-rl94yVZvKnZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@earthlink.com...
Yes, you're right. The zero was offset on the meter. Measuring again
showed resistance is lower than the detectable value for this meter.
Thanks.

The old faital fail to zero out the ohm meter error. Hapens to the best
of us sometimes.

With my DMM I have to remember to subtract about 0.2R every time. But it
isn't always the same - sometimes its a few R, very occasionally it actually
reads zero with the probes shorted.

Its probably the sockets in the front so new leads/probes probably wouldn't
fix it. I have newer meters, but I've had that on a long time and its become
comfortable.

 

[Ralph Mowery]

"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
newsiANy.560052$py.119651@fx43.am4...

With my DMM I have to remember to subtract about 0.2R every time. But it
isn't always the same - sometimes its a few R, very occasionally it
actually reads zero with the probes shorted.

Its probably the sockets in the front so new leads/probes probably
wouldn't fix it. I have newer meters, but I've had that on a long time and
its become comfortable.

Some of my meters have a button on them that will set the display to 'zero'
for most functions.

Some of the other inexpensive DMMs do not have any way to zero out the
resistance.
I even had an old one somewhere that had a zero adjustment pot similar to
my trusty Simpson 260 analog.

 

[Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinn]

"Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28146@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:mLKdnaWrNd5kSpvKnZ2dnUU7-TfNnZ2d@earthlink.com...

"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
newsiANy.560052$py.119651@fx43.am4...


With my DMM I have to remember to subtract about 0.2R every time. But it
isn't always the same - sometimes its a few R, very occasionally it
actually reads zero with the probes shorted.

Its probably the sockets in the front so new leads/probes probably
wouldn't fix it. I have newer meters, but I've had that on a long time and
its become comfortable.

Some of my meters have a button on them that will set the display to 'zero'
for most functions.

Some of the other inexpensive DMMs do not have any way to zero out the
resistance.
I even had an old one somewhere that had a zero adjustment pot similar to
my trusty Simpson 260 analog.

This meter was one of the extra high quality super accurate types that Harbor Freight gives away free! :O)

 

[tom]

"Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney" <Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait-McKinney.com> wrote in
message news:v76dnUHA44nmbZvKnZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@earthlink.com...
"Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28146@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:mLKdnaWrNd5kSpvKnZ2dnUU7-TfNnZ2d@earthlink.com...

"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
newsiANy.560052$py.119651@fx43.am4...


With my DMM I have to remember to subtract about 0.2R every time. But it
isn't always the same - sometimes its a few R, very occasionally it
actually reads zero with the probes shorted.

Its probably the sockets in the front so new leads/probes probably
wouldn't fix it. I have newer meters, but I've had that on a long time
and
its become comfortable.

Some of my meters have a button on them that will set the display to
'zero'
for most functions.

Some of the other inexpensive DMMs do not have any way to zero out the
resistance.
I even had an old one somewhere that had a zero adjustment pot similar to
my trusty Simpson 260 analog.

This meter was one of the extra high quality super accurate types that
Harbor Freight gives away free! :O)
---------------------------------

Otherwise known as a "transfer standard".

 

[Ralph Mowery]

"Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney" <Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait-

This meter was one of the extra high quality super accurate types that
Harbor Freight gives away free! :O)

I have several of them. They are not too bad. I checked them using a Fluke
that was verified by a standard at work that was tracable to the NIST.

There is an adjustment inside them if you want to calibrate a certain scale.

They are almost worth twice the price we paid for them

 

[Bill Martin]

On 04/07/2016 05:31 PM, tom wrote:

"Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney" <Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait-McKinney.com> wrote in
message news:v76dnUHA44nmbZvKnZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@earthlink.com...
"Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28146@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:mLKdnaWrNd5kSpvKnZ2dnUU7-TfNnZ2d@earthlink.com...

"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
newsiANy.560052$py.119651@fx43.am4...


With my DMM I have to remember to subtract about 0.2R every time. But it
isn't always the same - sometimes its a few R, very occasionally it
actually reads zero with the probes shorted.

Its probably the sockets in the front so new leads/probes probably
wouldn't fix it. I have newer meters, but I've had that on a long time
and
its become comfortable.

Some of my meters have a button on them that will set the display to
'zero'
for most functions.

Some of the other inexpensive DMMs do not have any way to zero out the
resistance.
I even had an old one somewhere that had a zero adjustment pot similar to
my trusty Simpson 260 analog.

This meter was one of the extra high quality super accurate types that
Harbor Freight gives away free! :O)
---------------------------------

Otherwise known as a "transfer standard".



random number generator

 

[Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinn]

"Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28146@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:td6dnZOvEI3FuZrKnZ2dnUU7-dPNnZ2d@earthlink.com...

"Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney" <Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait-
This meter was one of the extra high quality super accurate types that
Harbor Freight gives away free! :O)

I have several of them. They are not too bad. I checked them using a Fluke
that was verified by a standard at work that was tracable to the NIST.

There is an adjustment inside them if you want to calibrate a certain scale.

They are almost worth twice the price we paid for them

Yes, they're good for general work. One tip - if the meter starts to slide off the table, let it hit the ground and don't grab one of the probes. The probe wires are about the thickness of a hair.

 

[Ian Field]

"Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28146@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:td6dnZOvEI3FuZrKnZ2dnUU7-dPNnZ2d@earthlink.com...

"Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney" <Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait-
This meter was one of the extra high quality super accurate types that
Harbor Freight gives away free! :O)

I have several of them. They are not too bad. I checked them using a
Fluke that was verified by a standard at work that was tracable to the
NIST.

There is an adjustment inside them if you want to calibrate a certain
scale.

My first ever DMM came out the bin where I worked at the time, resistance
and ACV ranges were dead.

Inside was an LSI chip and a socketed dual op-amp - nothing to lose, I tried
changing the op-amp.

There was a preset pot on the board, so with the missing ranges restored, I
was able to borrow a traceable certificate instrument to set it up by.