Dead Electrical

[Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinn]

Out of the blue, I turned the ignition key and the started jerked and stopped. Next turn solenoid clicked only. After that no sound on turning key. No radio, panel lights, headlights, etc.

My guess at this point is that there is a bad negative ground.

No ongoing symptoms before today. Battery is new and checks out as fully charged. Voltage OK at the solenoid relay on the inside wall.

Searched last night for a main fuse or fusible links. Wiring diagrams show them but do not tell where to look for them. I assume close to the battery -- will spend some time now looking and TS with a meter.

Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Tue, 05 Apr 2016 10:20:37 -0700, Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinney wrote:

> Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.

Have you got some dirt or oil/grease on the battery posts? That's what it
sounds like to me.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 at 1:19:36 PM UTC-4, Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney wrote:

Out of the blue, I turned the ignition key and the started jerked and stopped. Next turn solenoid clicked only. After that no sound on turning key.. No radio, panel lights, headlights, etc.

My guess at this point is that there is a bad negative ground.

No ongoing symptoms before today. Battery is new and checks out as fully charged. Voltage OK at the solenoid relay on the inside wall.

Searched last night for a main fuse or fusible links. Wiring diagrams show them but do not tell where to look for them. I assume close to the battery -- will spend some time now looking and TS with a meter.

Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.

They will be (typically) some sort of little black box mounted on the firewall, or somewhere near the main fuse box or battery, it may look like a fancy connector as well. But it will be there. There will be no such thing on the ground side. Only on the + side.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Tim R]

Had something similar happen to a car. The battery was fine, the car wouldn't start. Turned out the battery cable had corroded below the battery where it didn't show - maybe got some acid drip from the battery? I dunno.

Anyway, the way we found it was checked voltage under load. There was plenty at the battery but not at the end of that wire.

 

You need you wife or girlfriend or someone to turn the ignition key on and off while you check the voltage at the battery itself, and then going away from the battery to the chassis on the negative side and if ok those two places, go from chassis ground to the hot lead down the line from the battery toward the load. It must be either that the battery voltage drops under load, or that there is a high resistance somewhere in the circuit. You get to play Dick Tracy to find it.

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Tue, 05 Apr 2016 13:48:45 -0700, hrhofmann wrote:

It must be either that the
battery voltage drops under load, or that there is a high resistance
somewhere in the circuit. You get to play Dick Tracy to find it.

Let's just hope for his sake it's not an intermittent fault (as it's
beginning to sound like) - they can make any fault 10x harder to find.

 

On Tue, 5 Apr 2016 10:20:37 -0700, "Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinney"
<Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait-McKinney.com> wrote:

Out of the blue, I turned the ignition key and the started jerked and stopped. Next turn solenoid clicked only. After that no sound on turning key. No radio, panel lights, headlights, etc.

My guess at this point is that there is a bad negative ground.

No ongoing symptoms before today. Battery is new and checks out as fully charged. Voltage OK at the solenoid relay on the inside wall.

Searched last night for a main fuse or fusible links. Wiring diagrams show them but do not tell where to look for them. I assume close to the battery -- will spend some time now looking and TS with a meter.

Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.

I just had a similar thing happen to my old Case backhoe. I turn the
key and the solenoid only clicks. Checking the voltage at the starter
when I try to start it the voltage dropped to about 2 volts. I
suspected that the starter motor had shorted out internally. I was
gonna pull it to test it and then my son gets down low so he can see
the bottom of the starter. He found that the heavy copper strip that
goes from the solenoid to the starter motor had been bent such that it
was touching the motor housing. So there was my short and it only
occurred when I attempted to start the backhoe. I figure a branch must
have somehow poked its way up far enough to hit the starter motor when
I was using the machine in the woods the other day.
Eric

 

You didn't mention the make and model, that might help.

That the lights and radio were dead is telling. Some cars haqve the battery + going straight to the starter motor and the solenoid is mounted right there and also serves to engage the gear to the flywheel. It sound like that is where your bad connection is. Older GM cars were like that. Over the years the vibration can make that nut loosen up. Now that you got it to connect by jarring it (the door) and welded it together (by actually starting it, the connection might stay good for some time. However it is still unreliable and unreliable shit in cars is no good.

since you say you don't see any fusebox looking type of thing nearby, the connection point may well be right at the starter. I would crawl down there and undo it and redo it. Maybe brush up the connections a bit. I would say to test it by trying to turn them but they might be welded together so that test could easily yield a false negative. (no pun intended this time) If you redo those connections, remember to disconnect the negative battery cable first. When spark fly from something like that they can hurt your eyes, burn your clothes, and if there's ant gasoline laying around you might find out just how good your insurance is.

 

[Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinn]

"Cursitor Doom" <curd@notformail.com> wrote in message news:ne0un8$4vc$1@dont-email.me...

On Tue, 05 Apr 2016 10:20:37 -0700, Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinney wrote:

Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.

Have you got some dirt or oil/grease on the battery posts? That's what it
sounds like to me.

Posts are clean. New battery 2 months ago and cleaned good and check hot and neutral wires.

 

[Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinn]

<pfjw@aol.com> wrote in message news:007dd25d-afe0-4347-8e3d-eda009c6ca14@googlegroups.com...
On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 at 1:19:36 PM UTC-4, Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney wrote:

Out of the blue, I turned the ignition key and the started jerked and stopped. Next turn solenoid clicked only. After that no sound on turning key. No radio, panel lights, headlights, etc.

My guess at this point is that there is a bad negative ground.

No ongoing symptoms before today. Battery is new and checks out as fully charged. Voltage OK at the solenoid relay on the inside wall.

Searched last night for a main fuse or fusible links. Wiring diagrams show them but do not tell where to look for them. I assume close to the battery -- will spend some time now looking and TS with a meter.

Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.

They will be (typically) some sort of little black box mounted on the firewall, or somewhere near the main fuse box or battery, it may look like a fancy connector as well. But it will be there. There will be no such thing on the ground side. Only on the + side.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


Thanks, I looked and didn't see it yet. Hot battery terminal has one large and one small wire, both going directly to the solenoid relay mounted on the side wall. No voltage drop between battery post and relay connection.

3 others hot wired connected there on the same post go various places, but none go to anything that would have fuses, relays in it.

Will keep looking for it. I'm suspecting the problem is in the ground circuit. Will attack that next.

 

[Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinn]

<etpm@whidbey.com> wrote in message news:8048gbp5ou8qqkgqa4tk0j0t37ecqe7tuq@4ax.com...

On Tue, 5 Apr 2016 10:20:37 -0700, "Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinney"
Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait-McKinney.com> wrote:

Out of the blue, I turned the ignition key and the started jerked and stopped. Next turn solenoid clicked only. After that no sound on turning key. No radio, panel lights, headlights, etc.

My guess at this point is that there is a bad negative ground.

No ongoing symptoms before today. Battery is new and checks out as fully charged. Voltage OK at the solenoid relay on the inside wall.

Searched last night for a main fuse or fusible links. Wiring diagrams show them but do not tell where to look for them. I assume close to the battery -- will spend some time now looking and TS with a meter.

Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.

I just had a similar thing happen to my old Case backhoe. I turn the
key and the solenoid only clicks. Checking the voltage at the starter
when I try to start it the voltage dropped to about 2 volts. I
suspected that the starter motor had shorted out internally. I was
gonna pull it to test it and then my son gets down low so he can see
the bottom of the starter. He found that the heavy copper strip that
goes from the solenoid to the starter motor had been bent such that it
was touching the motor housing. So there was my short and it only
occurred when I attempted to start the backhoe. I figure a branch must
have somehow poked its way up far enough to hit the starter motor when
I was using the machine in the woods the other day.
Eric

Thanks Eric. I'll check that here today. I replaced the solenoid & starter last week. Always careful with connections but as the wife says, I don't always notice everything....

 

[Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinn]

"Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney" <Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait-McKinney.com> wrote in message news:S7GdnZ9Ef_o5bp7KnZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@earthlink.com...
Out of the blue, I turned the ignition key and the started jerked and stopped. Next turn solenoid clicked only. After that no sound on turning key. No radio, panel lights, headlights, etc.

My guess at this point is that there is a bad negative ground.

No ongoing symptoms before today. Battery is new and checks out as fully charged. Voltage OK at the solenoid relay on the inside wall.

Searched last night for a main fuse or fusible links. Wiring diagrams show them but do not tell where to look for them. I assume close to the battery -- will spend some time now looking and TS with a meter.

Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.

==
Update from today....

I turned the key this morning and it started right up. When I got back home, I turned it off and on a few times and started each time without hesitation.

This morning the clock showed 5:30. When power is restored, the clock starts at 12:00. This means that the power was restored to the clock about the time I stopped troubleshooting yesterday. Last thing I did yesterday before locking it up was try to start it and all was dead, including panel, radio, lights, etc. Unless slamming the door jiggled a connection, I don't know what would have caused it. It would not be a heat-related problem because the engine was never started that day.

I don't want to go driving around town not knowing what the problem is but I'm stumped now.

So I guess what I'm looking for is some things to check the next time it won't start.

 

[M Philbrook]

In article <zbCdnYefce1OgZnKnZ2dnUU7-NnNnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Snuffy-Hub-
Cap@Livebait-McKinney.com says...

"Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney" <Snuffy-Hub-Cap@Livebait-McKinney.com> wrote in message news:S7GdnZ9Ef_o5bp7KnZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@earthlink.com...
Out of the blue, I turned the ignition key and the started jerked and stopped. Next turn solenoid clicked only. After that no sound on turning key. No radio, panel lights, headlights, etc.

My guess at this point is that there is a bad negative ground.

No ongoing symptoms before today. Battery is new and checks out as fully charged. Voltage OK at the solenoid relay on the inside wall.

Searched last night for a main fuse or fusible links. Wiring diagrams show them but do not tell where to look for them. I assume close to the battery -- will spend some time now looking and TS with a meter.

Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.

===

Update from today....

I turned the key this morning and it started right up. When I got back home, I turned it off and on a few times and started each time without hesitation.

This morning the clock showed 5:30. When power is restored, the clock starts at 12:00. This means that the power was restored to the clock about the time I stopped troubleshooting yesterday. Last thing I did yesterday before locking it up was try to start it and all was dead, including panel, radio, lights, etc. Unless slamming the door jiggled a connection, I don't know what would have caused it. It would not be a heat-related problem because the engine was never
started that day.

I don't want to go driving around town not knowing what the problem is but I'm stumped now.

So I guess what I'm looking for is some things to check the next time it won't start.

sure sounds like rusted body joints. Lots of cars depend on the body
being very connected for the ground. the Door slamming gives it away.


Jamie

 

>"So when is grease on the terminals bad ??"

Before it is connected. After it is connected grease helps keep the elements away but you don't want it between the mating surfaces.

 

[amdx]

On 4/5/2016 3:48 PM, hrhofmann@att.net wrote:

You need you wife or girlfriend or someone to turn the ignition key on and off while you check the voltage at the battery itself, and then going away from the battery to the chassis on the negative side and if ok those two places, go from chassis ground to the hot lead down the line from the battery toward the load. It must be either that the battery voltage drops under load, or that there is a high resistance somewhere in the circuit. You get to play Dick Tracy to find it.

Just to expound on the key off and on. If indeed the solenoid pulls
in, THEN is when you need to find the fault, current needs to flow to
find to find the bad connection. If you have 0.06 ohms of resistance
in a battery/starter circuit and the starter tries to draw 200 amps,
there is 12 volts dropped across your battery connection.*
You won't be able to measure 0.06 ohms.
Mikek

* yes, I'm aware if you have 0.06 ohms of resistance at the battery
connection the starter can't draw 200 amps, but...

 

[Rheilly Phoull]

On 6/04/2016 2:04 AM, Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Tue, 05 Apr 2016 10:20:37 -0700, Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinney wrote:

Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.

Have you got some dirt or oil/grease on the battery posts? That's what it
sounds like to me.

So when is grease on the terminals bad ??

 

[Ralph Mowery]

"Rheilly Phoull" <rheilly@bigslong.com> wrote in message
newsrCdnTUO-6Ix-ZnKnZ2dnUU7-b-dnZ2d@westnet.com.au...

Have you got some dirt or oil/grease on the battery posts? That's what it
sounds like to me.

So when is grease on the terminals bad ??

When it gets between the battery post and the clamp.

If it is on the outside it is fine.

 

[Tim R]

On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 at 10:41:13 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:

"Rheilly Phoull" <rheilly@bigslong.com> wrote in message
newsrCdnTUO-6Ix-ZnKnZ2dnUU7-b-dnZ2d@westnet.com.au...

Have you got some dirt or oil/grease on the battery posts? That's what it
sounds like to me.

So when is grease on the terminals bad ??

When it gets between the battery post and the clamp.

If it is on the outside it is fine.

Conventional wisdom says when you tighten it down the grease gets squeezed out and there is direct metal to metal contact.

Whether that's based on data or not I don't know. But that's the way mechanics do it successfully.

 

[Ralph Mowery]

"Tim R" <timothy42b@aol.com> wrote in message
news:76f2085f-e124-4dd0-a687-7e9f3948cbb5@googlegroups.com...

So when is grease on the terminals bad ??

When it gets between the battery post and the clamp.

If it is on the outside it is fine.

Conventional wisdom says when you tighten it down the grease gets squeezed
out and there is direct metal to metal contact.

Whether that's based on data or not I don't know. But that's the way
mechanics do it successfully.

Some mechanics can not be educated. If the grease is any good,not all of it
will be squeezed out so there is direct metal contact.

Think of it, the purpose of grease is to prevent metal to metal contact.

Clean the posts and clamps where they mate and put the clamps on. Then put
the grease or whatever you want on after that.

 

[Ian Field]

"Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28146@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:srSdnVvl29Pa6pnKnZ2dnUU7-anNnZ2d@earthlink.com...

"Rheilly Phoull" <rheilly@bigslong.com> wrote in message
newsrCdnTUO-6Ix-ZnKnZ2dnUU7-b-dnZ2d@westnet.com.au...

Have you got some dirt or oil/grease on the battery posts? That's what
it
sounds like to me.

So when is grease on the terminals bad ??

When it gets between the battery post and the clamp.

Most user/workshop manuals I've seen, advise a smear of petroleum jelly on
the battery posts to prevent a buildup of corrosion under the clamps.

Over the years, I've had various vehicles that seemed incapable of
containing their engine oil - once or twice the battery also got drenched,
apparently without any adverse effects.