Crystal frequency for monochrome video signal?

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 06:49:10 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

The B&W contains spectral peaks at multiplies of line and field rate.
For (stationary) images, there is no energy between the spectral lines.

This is not correct, unless every line is like every other line. The normal
variation in vertical details causes the peaks to "smear" somewhat.

I have quite often used the following example what the B&W signal
looks like:

There are quite often repeating hills every 15625 Hz with a tree
standing at every 25 Hz starting from the top of the hill

With severe wind (image movement) the tree branches will be mixed
with each other, making it impossible to separate luminance and
chrominance properly.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

wrote in message news:84eah8l5sjc287vef3emrj5df0hm042ubu@4ax.com...
On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 06:49:10 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

The B&W contains spectral peaks at multiplies of line and field rate.
For (stationary) images, there is no energy between the spectral lines.

This is not correct, unless every line is like every other line. The normal
variation in vertical details causes the peaks to "smear" somewhat.

I have quite often used the following example what the B&W signal
looks like:

There are quite often repeating hills every 15625 Hz with a tree
standing at every 25 Hz starting from the top of the hill

With severe wind (image movement) the tree branches will be mixed
with each other, making it impossible to separate luminance and
chrominance properly.

True, but you're missing the point of what I said. "Movement" is sufficient,
but not necessary. Changes in vertical detail produce same effect. That is,
no ordinary object is the same from line to line.

 

[Ian Field]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1uSdnQqDXbdc44nMnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...

Ian Field wrote:

"Tilmann Reh" <usenet2007nospam@autometer.de> wrote in message
news:keddia$5n4$1@dont-email.me...
Michael A. Terrell schrieb:

80's vintage German printing equipment (offset press industry) uses a
video
plug-in card (made by the manufacturer of this equipment) to generate
parameter display for the operator. The display is a standard
baseband
video
tube monitor. (It is possible, being German and sold in the USA
market,
that
the video may be NTSC or PAL.)

If it's monochrome, we don't need to talk about NTSC or PAL and their
particular color carrier frequencies...

In PAL & NTSC; the colour carrier was a multiple of the line rate.


Did you just figure that out?

That's a pretty feeble attempt - even for you!

 

[halong]

On Jan 30, 4:26 pm, DaveC <inva...@invalid.net> wrote:

80's vintage German printing equipment (offset press industry) uses a video
plug-in card (made by the manufacturer of this equipment) to generate
parameter display for the operator. The display is a standard baseband video
tube monitor. (It is possible, being German and sold in the USA market, that
the video may be NTSC or PAL.)

There is no video signal on the BNC output connector.

This is used equipment being resurrected, so operational history is unknown.

There is a place on the video card labeled "Q2" that is the right shape &
size for a crystal can. The pads look like it was ripped off the board: a
short lead soldered in one pad; a hole in the other pad where a lead was
soldered (poorly, apparently!). (Rough handling is a distinct possibility:
the client is a used-equipment dealer and the fork lift is their main
tool...).

The board is populated with 80's technology, mainly 74LS' :: the crystal pads
connect to an 'LS04 inverter/driver and then to an 'LS96 parallel-to-serial
converter. The 'LS96 spec sheet says that it can be driver up to 25 MHz.

The board uses a 8275 CRT controller, and in the datasheet it says: "CCLK is
a multiple of the dot clock and an input to the 8275."

Maybe these clues will tell someone what frequency this crystal needs to
be...?

What frequency crystal should I be looking for?

Thanks.

Do you have pictures ?

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Ian Field wrote:
?
? "Tilmann Reh" ?usenet2007nospam@autometer.de? wrote in message
? news:keddia$5n4$1@dont-email.me...
? ? Michael A. Terrell schrieb:
? ?
? ??? 80's vintage German printing equipment (offset press industry) uses a
? ??? video
? ??? plug-in card (made by the manufacturer of this equipment) to generate
? ??? parameter display for the operator. The display is a standard baseband
? ??? video
? ??? tube monitor. (It is possible, being German and sold in the USA market,
? ??? that
? ??? the video may be NTSC or PAL.)
? ?
? ? If it's monochrome, we don't need to talk about NTSC or PAL and their
? ? particular color carrier frequencies...

? In PAL ? NTSC; the colour carrier was a multiple of the line rate.

WHICH NTSC? There are two.





My first approach would be to see if anyone else still used the same
equipment and ask if they have the manuals, or would let you take some
photos for reference. Failing that:

<https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9rh9tVI0J5mOGFjYmM1ZTctMDNhOS00OTY5LTk4MTMtZDBlZjZhNzFmMzVh/edit>
uses a 22.68 MHz crystal, then a divide by two for 11.34 MHz. It also
has the code for the system. The problem is that there are too many
registers in that IC to give a pat answer. You would have to
disassemble the EPROMs to see how it was configured and calculate the
clock for yourself.

I would use a scope or frequency counter to see what the free running
H scan is on the monitor. (15,750 was NTSC Mono, and used on mono
computer monitors in the US.) Then I would disconnect the monitor and
try a crystal you think might be close enough to work, then measure the
horizontal drive frequency. A little math will get you in the ballpark.

The "CRT Controller Handbook" covered this CRTC, but I can't locate
my copy right now. There are several on Ebay for under $2 & shipping
right now. I believe that it covered the 8275 timing calculations, but
I haven't used the book in 20 years.

<http://www.ebay.com/ctg/CRT-Controller-Handbook-Gerry-Kane-1985-Paperback-/4929442>

 

[Ian Field]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7_edncmzKu3fSIrMnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@earthlink.com...

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Ian Field wrote:
?
? "Tilmann Reh" ?usenet2007nospam@autometer.de? wrote in message
? news:keddia$5n4$1@dont-email.me...
? ? Michael A. Terrell schrieb:
? ?
? ??? 80's vintage German printing equipment (offset press industry) uses
a
? ??? video
? ??? plug-in card (made by the manufacturer of this equipment) to
generate
? ??? parameter display for the operator. The display is a standard
baseband
? ??? video
? ??? tube monitor. (It is possible, being German and sold in the USA
market,
? ??? that
? ??? the video may be NTSC or PAL.)
? ?
? ? If it's monochrome, we don't need to talk about NTSC or PAL and their
? ? particular color carrier frequencies...

? In PAL ? NTSC; the colour carrier was a multiple of the line rate.


WHICH NTSC? There are two.

Twice never twice the same colour?!

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Ian Field wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" ?mike.terrell@earthlink.net? wrote in message
news:7_edncmzKu3fSIrMnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
?
? "Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
??
?? Ian Field wrote:
?? ?
?? ? "Tilmann Reh" ?usenet2007nospam@autometer.de? wrote in message
?? ? news:keddia$5n4$1@dont-email.me...
?? ? ? Michael A. Terrell schrieb:
?? ? ?
?? ? ??? 80's vintage German printing equipment (offset press industry) uses
?? a
?? ? ??? video
?? ? ??? plug-in card (made by the manufacturer of this equipment) to
?? generate
?? ? ??? parameter display for the operator. The display is a standard
?? baseband
?? ? ??? video
?? ? ??? tube monitor. (It is possible, being German and sold in the USA
?? market,
?? ? ??? that
?? ? ??? the video may be NTSC or PAL.)
?? ? ?
?? ? ? If it's monochrome, we don't need to talk about NTSC or PAL and their
?? ? ? particular color carrier frequencies...
?? ? ?
?? ? In PAL ? NTSC; the colour carrier was a multiple of the line rate.
?
?
? WHICH NTSC? There are two.

Twice never twice the same colour?!

Keep showing your vast ignorance. The first "National Television
Standards Committee" was for Monochrome. The second "National
Television Standards Committee" was for color, so 'NTSC' doesn't have
'color' anywhere in the title. They changed the Horizontal rate from
15,750 Hz to 15,734.264 Hz to eliminate a beat in the chroma. That <16
Hz difference allowed older TVs to receive the color broadcasts. The
original NTSC was still used for mono security cameras.

As always, you add nothing useful to any thread you butt into.
rather, you show what an ignorant ass you are. Maybe we should call you
'Mule', or 'Donkey Boy' to honor your lame assed attempts?

Now tell everyone how you designed dozens of commercial products with
the 8275. (Which was designed for 8085 based systems.) I don't recall
ever seeing one in any hardware. The 6545/6845 and the 5027 CRTC were
what I've seen.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 15:10:14 -0500, the renowned "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Keep showing your vast ignorance. The first "National Television
Standards Committee" was for Monochrome. The second "National
Television Standards Committee" was for color, so 'NTSC' doesn't have
'color' anywhere in the title

Hmm...

"National Television Standards Committee" NTSC
68,200 results

NTSC "Never Twice the same Colour" OR "Never Twice the same Color"
248,000 results


But I think the real answer is

"National Television System Committee" NTSC
1,480,000 results



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Ian Field]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:rM6dnTC7stIyY4rMnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@earthlink.com...

Ian Field wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" ?mike.terrell@earthlink.net? wrote in message
news:7_edncmzKu3fSIrMnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
?
? "Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
??
?? Ian Field wrote:
?? ?
?? ? "Tilmann Reh" ?usenet2007nospam@autometer.de? wrote in message
?? ? news:keddia$5n4$1@dont-email.me...
?? ? ? Michael A. Terrell schrieb:
?? ? ?
?? ? ??? 80's vintage German printing equipment (offset press industry)
uses
?? a
?? ? ??? video
?? ? ??? plug-in card (made by the manufacturer of this equipment) to
?? generate
?? ? ??? parameter display for the operator. The display is a standard
?? baseband
?? ? ??? video
?? ? ??? tube monitor. (It is possible, being German and sold in the USA
?? market,
?? ? ??? that
?? ? ??? the video may be NTSC or PAL.)
?? ? ?
?? ? ? If it's monochrome, we don't need to talk about NTSC or PAL and
their
?? ? ? particular color carrier frequencies...
?? ? ?
?? ? In PAL ? NTSC; the colour carrier was a multiple of the line rate.
?
?
? WHICH NTSC? There are two.

Twice never twice the same colour?!


Keep showing your vast ignorance. The first "National Television
Standards Committee" was for Monochrome. The second "National
Television Standards Committee" was for color, so 'NTSC' doesn't have
'color' anywhere in the title. They changed the Horizontal rate from
15,750 Hz to 15,734.264 Hz to eliminate a beat in the chroma. That <16
Hz difference allowed older TVs to receive the color broadcasts. The
original NTSC was still used for mono security cameras.

As always, you add nothing useful to any thread you butt into.
rather, you show what an ignorant ass you are. Maybe we should call you
'Mule', or 'Donkey Boy' to honor your lame assed attempts?

Now tell everyone how you designed dozens of commercial products with
the 8275. (Which was designed for 8085 based systems.) I don't recall
ever seeing one in any hardware. The 6545/6845 and the 5027 CRTC were
what I've seen.

What a pity you're a senile old fart with nothing to contribute except
what's been obsolete for decades.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Ian Field wrote:

What a pity you're a senile old fart with nothing to contribute except
what's been obsolete for decades.

What a pity that you were born, and have never done anything but
take.

 

[Ian Field]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:GtednQnugY3shYXMnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...

Ian Field wrote:

What a pity you're a senile old fart with nothing to contribute except
what's been obsolete for decades.


What a pity that you were born, and have never done anything but
take.

Take what exactly?

I take enough of your senile ranting!

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 15:10:14 -0500, the renowned "Michael A. Terrell"
?mike.terrell@earthlink.net? wrote:

?
? Keep showing your vast ignorance. The first "National Television
?Standards Committee" was for Monochrome. The second "National
?Television Standards Committee" was for color, so 'NTSC' doesn't have
?'color' anywhere in the title

Hmm...

"National Television Standards Committee" NTSC
68,200 results

NTSC "Never Twice the same Colour" OR "Never Twice the same Color"
248,000 results

But I think the real answer is

"National Television System Committee" NTSC
1,480,000 results

That's what I get for not looking it up. The last time I did was in
the mid '70s, when I stumbled across a book of the committee's
proceedings in the old Crosley engineering library.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 10/02/2013 17:39, Ian Field wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7_edncmzKu3fSIrMnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@earthlink.com...

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Ian Field wrote:
?
? "Tilmann Reh" ?usenet2007nospam@autometer.de? wrote in message
? news:keddia$5n4$1@dont-email.me...
? ? Michael A. Terrell schrieb:
? ?
? ??? 80's vintage German printing equipment (offset press industry)
uses a
? ??? video
? ??? plug-in card (made by the manufacturer of this equipment) to
generate
? ??? parameter display for the operator. The display is a standard
baseband
? ??? video
? ??? tube monitor. (It is possible, being German and sold in the USA
market,
? ??? that
? ??? the video may be NTSC or PAL.)
? ?
? ? If it's monochrome, we don't need to talk about NTSC or PAL and
their
? ? particular color carrier frequencies...

? In PAL ? NTSC; the colour carrier was a multiple of the line rate.

WHICH NTSC? There are two.

Twice never twice the same colour?!

I always thought that too from watching US terrestrial TV until I saw
the Japanese implementation of NTSC colour which works correctly. No
need to clamp the newscasters face to an eerie shade of pale orange to
avoid him drifting between a zombie green and purple flesh tone.

ISTR NTSC-J differs really only in the black level and blanking which
means that a tweak of the brightness control makes it work in the USA.
They were making full multistandard kit for the expat market back in the
early 1990's also with a tweak for bilingual TV mode allowing the R-L
sound channel to be presented as a mono channel on demand.

The main difference seemed to be like with RIAA equalisation that the
Japanese engineers read the specification and implemented it fully where
as the US engineered version was "near enough" and cheaper.

PAL was more complex still but got around the inherent drift problems by
having phase alternate line so on average chroma drifts cancel out.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Martin Brown wrote:

The main difference seemed to be like with RIAA equalisation that the
Japanese engineers read the specification and implemented it fully where
as the US engineered version was "near enough" and cheaper.

PAL was more complex still but got around the inherent drift problems by
having phase alternate line so on average chroma drifts cancel out.

According to many postings here, NTSC originated the alternating line
phase shift.

It was not necessary in the US due to the difference in the way that
TV signals were disseminated off the air, e.g. between the studio and
the transmitter.

The problem with the odd color shifts, or lack of color stability in
the US was usually a problem between the camera and the transmitter
due to something not being properly adjusted.

Bear in mind that the US had NTSC on the street in the 1953,
the BBC did not broadcast in color at all until the end of 1967, and
regularly two years later.

So if there was any reason to adopt the phase alternating line color
sync (which there was in retrospect), the BBC had 14 years to figure it
out.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
Gung Hay Fat Choy! (May the new year be prosperous).

 

[Ian Jackson]

In message <slrnkhh9eq.oh5.gsm@cable.mendelson.com>, Geoffrey S.
Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> writes

Martin Brown wrote:
The main difference seemed to be like with RIAA equalisation that the
Japanese engineers read the specification and implemented it fully where
as the US engineered version was "near enough" and cheaper.

PAL was more complex still but got around the inherent drift problems by
having phase alternate line so on average chroma drifts cancel out.

According to many postings here, NTSC originated the alternating line
phase shift.

It was not necessary in the US due to the difference in the way that
TV signals were disseminated off the air, e.g. between the studio and
the transmitter.

The problem with the odd color shifts, or lack of color stability in
the US was usually a problem between the camera and the transmitter
due to something not being properly adjusted.

Bear in mind that the US had NTSC on the street in the 1953,
the BBC did not broadcast in color at all until the end of 1967, and
regularly two years later.

So if there was any reason to adopt the phase alternating line color
sync (which there was in retrospect), the BBC had 14 years to figure it
out.

Wikipedia seems to give a pretty comprehensive account of the history of

NTSC etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC
The later development of a colour system which compatible with the
existing monochrome transmissions was indeed ingenious.

The BBC officially launched their regular scheduled colour TV service in
1967.
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/3/newsid_2514000/
2514719.stm>
However, they had been broadcasting various engineering and trade test
programmes (using the normal 625-line PAL) for some years. Prior to
that, they had been trying various colour systems and line standards
(including, I believe NTSC on 405-lines). However, despite the
politically shilly-shallying, it was pretty obvious that they were going
to end up with PAL.
--
Ian

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

Martin Brown wrote:
The main difference seemed to be like with RIAA equalisation that the
Japanese engineers read the specification and implemented it fully where
as the US engineered version was "near enough" and cheaper.

PAL was more complex still but got around the inherent drift problems by
having phase alternate line so on average chroma drifts cancel out.

According to many postings here, NTSC originated the alternating line
phase shift.

It was not necessary in the US due to the difference in the way that
TV signals were disseminated off the air, e.g. between the studio and
the transmitter.

The problem with the odd color shifts, or lack of color stability in
the US was usually a problem between the camera and the transmitter
due to something not being properly adjusted.

Bear in mind that the US had NTSC on the street in the 1953,
the BBC did not broadcast in color at all until the end of 1967, and
regularly two years later.

So if there was any reason to adopt the phase alternating line color
sync (which there was in retrospect), the BBC had 14 years to figure it
out.

The phase shift in the chroma was mot obvious on coast to coast
network feeds, when it was carried on a mix of coaxial and microwave
networks. The addition of VITS eliminated the need to adjust the
equalization at every hop. This has been discussed repeatedly, but the
British trolls just can't grasp the concept. The earliest US TV network
feeds didn't cross the country. 16 mm film was sent to various regions,
and live national news didn't have the bandwidth for a flat response so
detail was lost. Even worse was Kinescope film for Monochrome time
shifting, or for places with no network feed. Hell, the TV stations in
Alaska were still getting their network feed on 2" video tape into the
mid '70s because Sat TV wasn't available, and the White Alice network
just didn't have the spare bandwidth for video. It barely handled the
AFN radio network and military TTY. Of course, it was built in the '40s
for military communications, then opened to civilian traffic at a later
date.

Color in house, and over the STL to the transmitter was no problem,
once all vacuum tube equipment was phased out. The station's sync
generator & vectorscopes took care of that. hell, I had a two studio
feed set up for a telethon in the '80s with each studio 30 miles from
the transmitter and could fade from one studio to the other with no
phase shift. A pair of TBCs, but no VITS. We had the phase error well
under .1% which was the limit of the TBCs calibration.

 

[Ian Field]

"Martin Brown" <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c21Ss.33833$Ln.3149@newsfe22.iad...

On 10/02/2013 17:39, Ian Field wrote:


"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7_edncmzKu3fSIrMnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@earthlink.com...

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Ian Field wrote:
?
? "Tilmann Reh" ?usenet2007nospam@autometer.de? wrote in message
? news:keddia$5n4$1@dont-email.me...
? ? Michael A. Terrell schrieb:
? ?
? ??? 80's vintage German printing equipment (offset press industry)
uses a
? ??? video
? ??? plug-in card (made by the manufacturer of this equipment) to
generate
? ??? parameter display for the operator. The display is a standard
baseband
? ??? video
? ??? tube monitor. (It is possible, being German and sold in the USA
market,
? ??? that
? ??? the video may be NTSC or PAL.)
? ?
? ? If it's monochrome, we don't need to talk about NTSC or PAL and
their
? ? particular color carrier frequencies...

? In PAL ? NTSC; the colour carrier was a multiple of the line rate.

WHICH NTSC? There are two.

Twice never twice the same colour?!

I always thought that too from watching US terrestrial TV until I saw the
Japanese implementation of NTSC colour which works correctly.

PAL may have given the Jap designers a bit more trouble - some of the early
loss-leader sets had 2 colour subcarrier crystals - they had some pretty
strange looking circuitry where the 7.8kHz ident oscillator should have
been.

 

[Fred Abse]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 18:19:31 +0000, Ian Field wrote:

PAL may have given the Jap designers a bit more trouble - some of the
early loss-leader sets had 2 colour subcarrier crystals - they had some
pretty strange looking circuitry where the 7.8kHz ident oscillator should
have been.

Some, if not all, of that was to get around the Bruch PAL patent.
Supposedly, not using the swinging burst for phase ident got them out of
paying Telefunken royalties.

Early on, Tfunk would not license manufacturers in countries that didn't
themselves operate the PAL system.

Sony used the 4-field alternating blanking cycle, that was a PAL
afterthought to get rid of top disturbances, and reputedly wasn't
patented. That system effectively threw away alternate line chroma,
reusing the previous line.

--
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence
over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
(Richard Feynman)

 

[Mark Zenier]

In article <rM6dnTC7stIyY4rMnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Now tell everyone how you designed dozens of commercial products with
the 8275. (Which was designed for 8085 based systems.) I don't recall
ever seeing one in any hardware. The 6545/6845 and the 5027 CRTC were
what I've seen.

The Intel MDS blue box system used it, if someone wants a design
example.

Mark Zenier mzenier@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Mark Zenier wrote:

In article <rM6dnTC7stIyY4rMnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
Now tell everyone how you designed dozens of commercial products with
the 8275. (Which was designed for 8085 based systems.) I don't recall
ever seeing one in any hardware. The 6545/6845 and the 5027 CRTC were
what I've seen.

The Intel MDS blue box system used it, if someone wants a design
example.

Was that their 8085 development system with the 8" disk drive?