A
Arfa Daily
Guest
"Mike Tomlinson" <mike@jasper.org.uk> wrote in message
news:U6QNJSBZQekNFwPA@jasper.org.uk...
Arfa
news:U6QNJSBZQekNFwPA@jasper.org.uk...
Seconded ...
Arfa
W
William Sommerwerck
Guest
I don't understand how shotgunning can /create/ problems, as long as the
replaced components are correct replacements. Unless you mean the customer
might get upset.
As an experienced service technician, you know that the cause of a given
problem is not always obvious, even after extensive troubleshooting. The
customer is paying for your time, often more than what the parts cost. Why
burn up the customer's money when replacing a half-dozen parts is likely to
fix the thing?
M
Mark Zacharias
Guest
"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news
yvkp.993$KZ7.136@newsfe08.ams2...
I have seen sets (notably Toshiba and Mitsubishi) where shotgunning was
advisable in addition to replacing whichever single cap might have been
causing your issue.
Mark Z.
news
yvkp.993$KZ7.136@newsfe08.ams2...I have seen sets (notably Toshiba and Mitsubishi) where shotgunning was
advisable in addition to replacing whichever single cap might have been
causing your issue.
Mark Z.
M
Mike Tomlinson
Guest
In article <imsmrd$5nf$1@dont-email.me>, William Sommerwerck
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> writes
with you paying for his time and all the parts he is unnecessarily
fitting?
--
Mike Tomlinson
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> writes
Would you be happy for a car mechanic to shotgun a fault on your car,
with you paying for his time and all the parts he is unnecessarily
fitting?
--
Mike Tomlinson
M
Meat Plow
Guest
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 07:38:43 -0500, Mark Zacharias wrote:
sets "shotgun packs" because of the amount of components included.
Some of those even included parts not on the board that were to be
added on the solder side.
--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse
We used to call some of the factory repair 'kits' for certain Panasonic"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:imsmrd$5nf$1@dont-email.me...
Hello? Instead of fussing over it, why not replace all the
electrolytics "in
the vicinity" while the bad-looking solder joints are being re-done?
This is a common problem in servicing. As an EE, I want to know
exactly why
something isn't working correctly. But I learned a long time ago that
it's
more important to simply get the damned thing fixed. If that means
shotgunning likely components, so be it.
Shotgunning is, IMHO, very bad practice, and often leads to the
creation of more problems than it fixes. I am actually quite surprised
that you would advocate doing this, William.
Arfa
I have seen sets (notably Toshiba and Mitsubishi) where shotgunning was
advisable in addition to replacing whichever single cap might have been
causing your issue.
Mark Z.
sets "shotgun packs" because of the amount of components included.
Some of those even included parts not on the board that were to be
added on the solder side.
--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse
W
William Sommerwerck
Guest
Yes, if an initial /conscientious/ troubleshoot didn't reveal the problem.
I'd rather pay for parts than time.
Of course, you can't draw an exact parallel between cars and electronic
equipment. It's easier to "see" what is wrong with mechanical devices, but
car parts tend to be more-expensive than electronic parts.
S
Smitty Two
Guest
In article <+w2nr3BDz0kNFwLl@jasper.org.uk>,
Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> wrote:
in because it was overheating. They called with the estimate (of many
hundreds of dollars,) saying they had determined that it needed a new
radiator, new water pump, new thermostat, and new hoses.
I went down there and asked them how they had determined the radiator
fault, and they claimed to have pressure tested it. A 15 second look
under the hood confirmed my suspicion that they had not.
I took the car and replaced the thermostat - $12 and 1/2 hour - and it
served her for several more years.
The shop in question is consistently voted winner of the annual
"Reader's Poll" in our local rag.
Oddly, I don't think they operate that way solely to cheat the customer
financially. I think they're more driven by not wanting any return
complaints. That's why the "Readers" like them -- "they fixed it right
the first time!!"
I drove around town for the next 3 months with a giant sign in my back
window:
"Richard's Auto: As Crooked As the Day is Long."
I got a lot of stories from people who saw the sign, about their own bad
experiences there.
Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> wrote:
It's commonly done. Had a girlfriend a few years back who took her car
in because it was overheating. They called with the estimate (of many
hundreds of dollars,) saying they had determined that it needed a new
radiator, new water pump, new thermostat, and new hoses.
I went down there and asked them how they had determined the radiator
fault, and they claimed to have pressure tested it. A 15 second look
under the hood confirmed my suspicion that they had not.
I took the car and replaced the thermostat - $12 and 1/2 hour - and it
served her for several more years.
The shop in question is consistently voted winner of the annual
"Reader's Poll" in our local rag.
Oddly, I don't think they operate that way solely to cheat the customer
financially. I think they're more driven by not wanting any return
complaints. That's why the "Readers" like them -- "they fixed it right
the first time!!"
I drove around town for the next 3 months with a giant sign in my back
window:
"Richard's Auto: As Crooked As the Day is Long."
I got a lot of stories from people who saw the sign, about their own bad
experiences there.
W
William Sommerwerck
Guest
There's also the possibility that a comprehensive makes it possible to offer
a "lifetime" warranty on the repair.
It goes without saying that if a service shop claims that lots of things
need fixing, it's probably not telling the truth.
Thirty years ago I worked part-time -- at $6/hour -- for Chestnut Hill Audio
in Philadelphia. The owner said to me "You're not as fast as the other
people I use -- but nothing you repair comes back."
I had a holy horror of callbacks. It costs the business money, and it makes
the business and the service tech look bad.
By the way, I never shotgunned anything I repaired there, because nothing
seemed to need it.
M
Meat Plow
Guest
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:31:15 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse
Isn't that an unfair comparison?
--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse
A
Arfa Daily
Guest
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:imu10l$dit$1@dont-email.me...
by the person replacing it. I have had many items cross my bench over the
years, which have been 'elsewhere' first, and have seen wrong values fitted,
caps in backwards, diodes in backwards, damaged print and so on, amongst the
many components that have have obviously been shotgunned, as evidenced by
the flux all over their joints. I have also seen unsuitable substitutes
fitted, where technicians have had insufficient understanding of the
requirements of a circuit's design, and have just put in 'what came to hand'
in order to complete their shotgun.
Very occasionally, it is necessary to replace a block of components, when a
fault is particularly obscure, but I would never recommend it as an
acceptable procedure to anyone who wasn't hugely experienced in the field of
service work, and particularly in the case of a simple problem such as the
OP has with his TV's field scanning, and which would be easily diagnosed
with the use of appropriate test equipment.
Arfa
news:imu10l$dit$1@dont-email.me...
Every component that is replaced, increases the potential margin for error
by the person replacing it. I have had many items cross my bench over the
years, which have been 'elsewhere' first, and have seen wrong values fitted,
caps in backwards, diodes in backwards, damaged print and so on, amongst the
many components that have have obviously been shotgunned, as evidenced by
the flux all over their joints. I have also seen unsuitable substitutes
fitted, where technicians have had insufficient understanding of the
requirements of a circuit's design, and have just put in 'what came to hand'
in order to complete their shotgun.
Very occasionally, it is necessary to replace a block of components, when a
fault is particularly obscure, but I would never recommend it as an
acceptable procedure to anyone who wasn't hugely experienced in the field of
service work, and particularly in the case of a simple problem such as the
OP has with his TV's field scanning, and which would be easily diagnosed
with the use of appropriate test equipment.
Arfa
A
Arfa Daily
Guest
"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:4d932454$0$31449$c3e8da3$c14f6927@news.astraweb.com...
has recommended a block of components to be replaced, on the grounds that
some or all of the additional ones, may have been unacceptably stressed or
damaged, by the primary failure. In these cases, the manufacturer or his
spares agent usually supplies 'service kits' of all the necessary
components. Often the case with switch mode power supplies.
As in, for instance
http://www.ohmsupplies.co.uk/
Arfa
news:4d932454$0$31449$c3e8da3$c14f6927@news.astraweb.com...
Occasionally, this is true, but only - for me at least - if the manufacturer"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:imsmrd$5nf$1@dont-email.me...
Hello? Instead of fussing over it, why not replace all the electrolytics
"in
the vicinity" while the bad-looking solder joints are being re-done?
This is a common problem in servicing. As an EE, I want to know exactly
why
something isn't working correctly. But I learned a long time ago that
it's
more important to simply get the damned thing fixed. If that means
shotgunning likely components, so be it.
Shotgunning is, IMHO, very bad practice, and often leads to the creation
of more problems than it fixes. I am actually quite surprised that you
would advocate doing this, William.
Arfa
I have seen sets (notably Toshiba and Mitsubishi) where shotgunning was
advisable in addition to replacing whichever single cap might have been
causing your issue.
Mark Z.
has recommended a block of components to be replaced, on the grounds that
some or all of the additional ones, may have been unacceptably stressed or
damaged, by the primary failure. In these cases, the manufacturer or his
spares agent usually supplies 'service kits' of all the necessary
components. Often the case with switch mode power supplies.
As in, for instance
http://www.ohmsupplies.co.uk/
Arfa
A
Arfa Daily
Guest
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:imvm1k$cqb$1@dont-email.me...
parts was the EMU, for example. This, and many of the expensive sensors on
engines nowadays, are usually 'bonded' parts, and once the box has been
opened, the supplier will not accept it back, which leaves you paying for
it, when it was not required. A while ago, I had just this problem with my
local garage, who replaced a cartload of parts and sensors on my engine, for
an idle problem that ultimately turned out to be due to a split in the PCV
hose. I argued with them long and hard about having to pay for parts that
had been shotgunned due to the fact that the guy doing the job had not
correctly diagnosed the problem. I eventually had to settle for a reduced
labour bill to offset the unnecessary parts cost, which they were determined
were staying on the engine, and that I was going to be paying for (at retail
price, just to make it worse)
Arfa
news:imvm1k$cqb$1@dont-email.me...
I'm not at all sure you would say that if one of the incorrectly fitted
parts was the EMU, for example. This, and many of the expensive sensors on
engines nowadays, are usually 'bonded' parts, and once the box has been
opened, the supplier will not accept it back, which leaves you paying for
it, when it was not required. A while ago, I had just this problem with my
local garage, who replaced a cartload of parts and sensors on my engine, for
an idle problem that ultimately turned out to be due to a split in the PCV
hose. I argued with them long and hard about having to pay for parts that
had been shotgunned due to the fact that the guy doing the job had not
correctly diagnosed the problem. I eventually had to settle for a reduced
labour bill to offset the unnecessary parts cost, which they were determined
were staying on the engine, and that I was going to be paying for (at retail
price, just to make it worse)
Arfa
A
Arfa Daily
Guest
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:imvpdu$p1l$1@dont-email.me...
switch mode power supplies - where it is often prudent, or even recommended
by the manufacturer, to replace a whole raft of parts, but for most general
repairs, the cause of the problem should be correctly diagnosed, and the
(usually) one faulty component replaced.
Arfa
news:imvpdu$p1l$1@dont-email.me...
Which is precisely what I'm saying. Yes, there are some items - notably
switch mode power supplies - where it is often prudent, or even recommended
by the manufacturer, to replace a whole raft of parts, but for most general
repairs, the cause of the problem should be correctly diagnosed, and the
(usually) one faulty component replaced.
Arfa
A
Arfa Daily
Guest
"whit3rd" <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a40cc351-8a75-4797-a32b-b5837a7caadb@glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com...
I hear what you're saying, and it does, on paper at least, have some
validity. However, my comments are based purely on many many years'
experience of doing service work on electronic equipment, from all walks of
life from consumer through industrial, and on a daily basis. I replace bad
electrolytic caps all the time. Several items every week will require bad
caps finding and replacing, and in just about every single case, the ESR
meter tells the story. In fact, it is probably the most useful test
instrument to live on my bench, and has paid for itself many times over.
Whilst I accept that electrolytics *do* fall in value, I find it actually
quite rare. Almost always, if a cap has fallen in value, its ESR will also
be out of the window. In my experience though, the reverse is often not
true. Having found a bad cap with my ESR meter, I do occasionally check the
value on my digital C meter, and for the most part, find it to be well
within tolerance.
As to having to remove caps to test them, again this is rare, and quite
impractical on complex switchers which may have many electrolytics, and more
than one that is faulty. I don't know if you are personally involved in
commercial service work, but in today's economic climate, and with the low
value of much equipment, the name of the game is quick and accurate
diagnosis of a problem, and minimising additional costs of time and
materials. I have never been an advocate of 'shotgunning' faults by
replacing components which may or may not be faulty. I have had many items
pass across my bench over the years which have come from other service
outfits who have replaced components 'willy-nilly' that they suspected to be
faulty, but without ever getting to the bottom of the original problem, and
having compounded that original fault in their efforts. I have had caps
fitted backwards, diodes and transistors fitted backwards, wrong value
resistors fitted, print damage and so on. So personally, I like to have a
bit more than a suspicion that a component is faulty, before replacing it.
In the case of electrolytics, my ESR meter, for the most part, does that for
me. In saying that, however, I think that I should also say that I fully
accept that the use of an ESR meter is as much black magic as science and,
although it is a useful instrument when used by its instruction manual, for
the professional user, there is also a considerable amount of interpretation
and 'feel' involved. In 'casual' hands, an ESR meter may be little better
than a multimeter for finding bad caps ...
One place where it can fool you is where an electrolytic has gone short
circuit - fairly rare these days, but does happen. In that case, the ESR
meter will of course, give a nice low reading that will, initially at least,
fool you into thinking that the cap is (probably) good.
Arfa
news:a40cc351-8a75-4797-a32b-b5837a7caadb@glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com...
I hear what you're saying, and it does, on paper at least, have some
validity. However, my comments are based purely on many many years'
experience of doing service work on electronic equipment, from all walks of
life from consumer through industrial, and on a daily basis. I replace bad
electrolytic caps all the time. Several items every week will require bad
caps finding and replacing, and in just about every single case, the ESR
meter tells the story. In fact, it is probably the most useful test
instrument to live on my bench, and has paid for itself many times over.
Whilst I accept that electrolytics *do* fall in value, I find it actually
quite rare. Almost always, if a cap has fallen in value, its ESR will also
be out of the window. In my experience though, the reverse is often not
true. Having found a bad cap with my ESR meter, I do occasionally check the
value on my digital C meter, and for the most part, find it to be well
within tolerance.
As to having to remove caps to test them, again this is rare, and quite
impractical on complex switchers which may have many electrolytics, and more
than one that is faulty. I don't know if you are personally involved in
commercial service work, but in today's economic climate, and with the low
value of much equipment, the name of the game is quick and accurate
diagnosis of a problem, and minimising additional costs of time and
materials. I have never been an advocate of 'shotgunning' faults by
replacing components which may or may not be faulty. I have had many items
pass across my bench over the years which have come from other service
outfits who have replaced components 'willy-nilly' that they suspected to be
faulty, but without ever getting to the bottom of the original problem, and
having compounded that original fault in their efforts. I have had caps
fitted backwards, diodes and transistors fitted backwards, wrong value
resistors fitted, print damage and so on. So personally, I like to have a
bit more than a suspicion that a component is faulty, before replacing it.
In the case of electrolytics, my ESR meter, for the most part, does that for
me. In saying that, however, I think that I should also say that I fully
accept that the use of an ESR meter is as much black magic as science and,
although it is a useful instrument when used by its instruction manual, for
the professional user, there is also a considerable amount of interpretation
and 'feel' involved. In 'casual' hands, an ESR meter may be little better
than a multimeter for finding bad caps ...
One place where it can fool you is where an electrolytic has gone short
circuit - fairly rare these days, but does happen. In that case, the ESR
meter will of course, give a nice low reading that will, initially at least,
fool you into thinking that the cap is (probably) good.
Arfa
W
William Sommerwerck
Guest
Yes, but you and I don't make such mistakes.
M
Mike Tomlinson
Guest
In article <pan.2011.03.30.16.05.12@lmao.lol.lol>, Meat Plow
<mhywattt@yahoo.com> writes
hear why you think it's unfair.
--
Mike Tomlinson
<mhywattt@yahoo.com> writes
Tell me how. Not being argumentative, I'd be genuinely interested to
hear why you think it's unfair.
--
Mike Tomlinson
M
Mark Zacharias
Guest
"Mike Tomlinson" <mike@jasper.org.uk> wrote in message
news:+w2nr3BDz0kNFwLl@jasper.org.uk...
If the parts are cheap with little or no additional labor, and done to
prevent a repeat failure in the near time frame, as is often the case with
TV's, then yes, I would be happy, and so are my customers.
Mark Z.
news:+w2nr3BDz0kNFwLl@jasper.org.uk...
If the parts are cheap with little or no additional labor, and done to
prevent a repeat failure in the near time frame, as is often the case with
TV's, then yes, I would be happy, and so are my customers.
Mark Z.