Crops under solar panels can be a win-win

[bitrex]

On 9/6/19 2:40 PM, Dave Platt wrote:

In article <p6p4ne1couuvlg2ccf2v7sk1fk09p37gk4@4ax.com>,
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

Solar cells with LEDs on the bottom? Why didn't I patent that?

Too late now.

Back around 1990 I got a job at a startup which was working on what
eventually became the 3DO Multiplayer CD-ROM-based videogame system.
The startup was still in stealth mode. What the founders were saying
to anyone who asked, was "Battery-less technology. On even-numbered
days we're developing a wind-powered fan. On odd-numbered days we're
developing a solar-powered flashlight."

3DO seemed like a technologically advanced system for the time that
suffered from the usual market-segment problems: too expensive, and
management seemed to think people would pay a premium for games just
because they were 3D and came on CD without respect to their other
qualities, like being good or fun.

They didn't.

 

[bitrex]

On 9/6/19 4:55 PM, bitrex wrote:

On 9/6/19 2:40 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
In article <p6p4ne1couuvlg2ccf2v7sk1fk09p37gk4@4ax.com>,
  <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

Solar cells with LEDs on the bottom? Why didn't I patent that?

Too late now.

Back around 1990 I got a job at a startup which was working on what
eventually became the 3DO Multiplayer CD-ROM-based videogame system.

I bet it sold dozens of copies. Enough for everyone with a 3DO

Ah crap I screwed up the gag.

 

[bitrex]

On 9/6/19 2:40 PM, Dave Platt wrote:

In article <p6p4ne1couuvlg2ccf2v7sk1fk09p37gk4@4ax.com>,
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

Solar cells with LEDs on the bottom? Why didn't I patent that?

Too late now.

Back around 1990 I got a job at a startup which was working on what
eventually became the 3DO Multiplayer CD-ROM-based videogame system.

I bet it sold dozens of copies. Enough for everyone with a 3DO

The startup was still in stealth mode. What the founders were saying
to anyone who asked, was "Battery-less technology. On even-numbered
days we're developing a wind-powered fan. On odd-numbered days we're
developing a solar-powered flashlight."

 

[Rick C]

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 2:31:48 PM UTC-4, bloggs.fre...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:35:05 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 12:37:10 PM UTC-4, bloggs.fre...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 12:13:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:27:17 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
This is interesting

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/crops-under-solar-panels-can-be-a-win-win/

They report that not only do crops grow better using less water for the amount of food produced the solar panels stay cooler improving their electrical production. True win-win.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Study was conducted in arid area of southwest where literally anything is an improvement. It is not a general recommendation.

The solar cells can power water sprayers.

The water is a more valuable commodity than the electricity it takes to run irrigation pumps, and they really want to be using drip irrigation in places like this, and drip is low power.It probably drove the idea of using the panels for shading in the first place, although a lot stuff doesn't do well in shade. Notice they didn't mention any of the economics, but the crummy vegetable crop isn't going to make up for the loss of revenue due to greatly reduced panel density.

Loss of revenue??? You seem to want to optimize something that is not so important. I suppose some will say this is a solar farm with reduced density. Others will see it as a crop farm that also produces electricity.

LOL- there is such a thing as putting numbers to it. That experimental thing looks like 25% land use for the solar max. That is a major reduction in output. And what the heck makes you think vegetable farms use inordinate amounts of energy? They don't.

You still aren't getting it. Farms don't typically source electricity, although there are a few around here that have put solar collectors on barns and such.

You seem to want to compare to a single purpose solar installation rather than look at the whole picture. Consider it a farm that produces electricity. Now the ground coverage by the solar cells is not so important is it?

The important numbers were mentioned in the report although they didn't look at crop yield per land area which may or may not be different from other farms.

You are missing the point which is that the solar collectors improve the growing of the crops and the crops improve the operation of the solar collectors. This is not a commercial crop/solar farm. Like many here if it isn't packaged and sealed and ready for delivery you seem to think it can't possibly be practical. So I suppose nuclear energy is not practical either since we have no idea how to maintain waste products for 10,000 years.

The point is there is a synergy and it can do both. The only issue is whether this works out to be better than either one alone. You have contributed nothing to that part of the conversation, just waving your arms in the air yelling, "reduced panel density!"

There is no synergy whatsoever with this dumb scheme. And there isn't a problem with solar consuming prime agricultural land. Much of it is being located in areas where agriculture is impractical if not impossible. The market is a corrective influence in that the cost of prime land is sky high compared to the unusable land, so the solar installations go onto agriculturally unusable land. BUT on the political side, many localities are banning solar in areas zoned for agriculture, even though agriculture may be failing there or the land is fallow. The bans are mainly due to sentimentality and not science or economics based. So this solar/agriculture "synergy" nonsense is a way to attempt to circumvent the bans.

Oh, there's the problem. You didn't actually read the report or you wouldn't say "there is no synergy". Go back and read and then we'll talk.

As to your point of using only "agriculturally unusable land", that's pure BS. A 500 MW installation, one of the largest in the US is being built 10 miles from here on land that is in use for lumber harvesting. There is no shortage of land here, other than for homes which is the main complaint with the facility, it's right next to a neighborhood.

The issue also isn't that land is scarce. The report shows how solar and crops can improve each other. Oh, but you didn't read the report, I forgot.

Modern agriculture is heading for catastrophic collapse in so many ways. They have HUGE problems. Here is a story about their plastics problem:
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/how-can-agriculture-solve-its-1-billion-plastic-problem
These plastic products are absolutely essential, but it's getting unsustainable.

With all the plastics use in the world and all the problems it creates, you seem to be overly focused on this one part of the problem. Why is this any worse than any other plastic disposal problem? Why is this harder to solve? Seems to me like they have a handle on it mostly because it is big business and at least the collection issue is greatly reduced.

If the problem is huge, then it's huge. Attempting to diminish it by comparison with even worse problems is not constructive. The agricultural turnover is seasonal, it is non-stop, and there are no alternatives on the horizon.

I'm just looking at where to spend the problem solving capital. I don't think farm based plastics are the important issue at the moment. We can't address every problem at once... and "huge" is a relative term so, no, it's not such a big problem relatively speaking. I'm not sure how it is even relevant to the issue at hand. Maybe you'd like to open an new thread to discuss that?

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <cd054c53-efde-43ca-ab89-eac6db3eacbe@googlegroups.com>,
Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

It was a sobering thing to think "OK, every mistake I make in the
first version of the code is going to be mastered onto about 100k
CD-ROMs... and can't be fixed once it's shipped."

Don't you wish you worked on hardware where things are simple and easy to get right?

(sound of a horse, laughing, in the distance)



Yeah, that situation gave me an appreciation for what the hardware
guys go through every time they tape out.

 

[Rick C]

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 5:55:46 PM UTC-4, Dave Platt wrote:

In article <LIzcF.367690$cG6.261713@fx34.iad>,
bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 9/6/19 2:40 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
In article <p6p4ne1couuvlg2ccf2v7sk1fk09p37gk4@4ax.com>,
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

Solar cells with LEDs on the bottom? Why didn't I patent that?

Too late now.

Back around 1990 I got a job at a startup which was working on what
eventually became the 3DO Multiplayer CD-ROM-based videogame system.

I bet it sold dozens of copies. Enough for everyone with a 3DO

All models together, worldwide, I understand that there were about
700,000 3DO consoles sold.

I wasn't working on any one specific game for it - I was part of the
team developing the Portfolio operating system that all of the games
used. I wrote the CD-ROM driver and the filesystem code, and the
software to drive the game controllers and light gun and so forth.
Also co-designed the audio DSP and developed the 3D-audio algorithm
for it.

It was a sobering thing to think "OK, every mistake I make in the
first version of the code is going to be mastered onto about 100k
CD-ROMs... and can't be fixed once it's shipped."

Don't you wish you worked on hardware where things are simple and easy to get right?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <LIzcF.367690$cG6.261713@fx34.iad>,
bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 9/6/19 2:40 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
In article <p6p4ne1couuvlg2ccf2v7sk1fk09p37gk4@4ax.com>,
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

Solar cells with LEDs on the bottom? Why didn't I patent that?

Too late now.

Back around 1990 I got a job at a startup which was working on what
eventually became the 3DO Multiplayer CD-ROM-based videogame system.

I bet it sold dozens of copies. Enough for everyone with a 3DO

All models together, worldwide, I understand that there were about
700,000 3DO consoles sold.

I wasn't working on any one specific game for it - I was part of the
team developing the Portfolio operating system that all of the games
used. I wrote the CD-ROM driver and the filesystem code, and the
software to drive the game controllers and light gun and so forth.
Also co-designed the audio DSP and developed the 3D-audio algorithm
for it.

It was a sobering thing to think "OK, every mistake I make in the
first version of the code is going to be mastered onto about 100k
CD-ROMs... and can't be fixed once it's shipped."

 

[sea moss]

Back around 1990 I got a job at a startup which was working on what
eventually became the 3DO Multiplayer CD-ROM-based videogame system.

I bet it sold dozens of copies. Enough for everyone with a 3DO

All models together, worldwide, I understand that there were about
700,000 3DO consoles sold.

I wasn't working on any one specific game for it - I was part of the
team developing the Portfolio operating system that all of the games
used. I wrote the CD-ROM driver and the filesystem code, and the
software to drive the game controllers and light gun and so forth.
Also co-designed the audio DSP and developed the 3D-audio algorithm
for it.

man that is super cool you worked on that. thanks for sharing. 3DO was the "most advanced" system of its time (never got to play on one though)

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 3:19:27 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 12:13:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:27:17 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
This is interesting

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/crops-under-solar-panels-can-be-a-win-win/

They report that not only do crops grow better using less water for the amount of food produced the solar panels stay cooler improving their electrical production. True win-win.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Study was conducted in arid area of southwest where literally anything is an improvement. It is not a general recommendation.

The solar cells can power water sprayers.

The water is a more valuable commodity than the electricity it takes to run irrigation pumps, and they really want to be using drip irrigation in places like this, and drip is low power.It probably drove the idea of using the panels for shading in the first place, although a lot stuff doesn't do well in shade. Notice they didn't mention any of the economics, but the crummy vegetable crop isn't going to make up for the loss of revenue due to greatly reduced panel density.
Modern agriculture is heading for catastrophic collapse in so many ways. They have HUGE problems. Here is a story about their plastics problem:
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/how-can-agriculture-solve-its-1-billion-plastic-problem
These plastic products are absolutely essential, but it's getting unsustainable.

There's gloom and destruction everywhere you look. Enjoy.

Some fathead Dem candidate said that driving cars will "destroy the
planet" as he boarded his private plane.

Driving electric cars would be fine. Aircraft are more of a problem. There really aren't enough private planes to create a problem, but international tourism probably has to go.

https://www.monbiot.com/books/heat/

George Monbiot pointed this out back in 2006, and it still seems to be true..

A new generation of more bulbous aircraft with enough room for liquid hydrogen fuel - rather lower energy density than liquid hydrocarbons - might save the tourist industry, but it would take a while and a great deal of expensive development.

Global Warming has become Climate Change has become Climate Crisis.
What's next?

Extra-destructive hurricanes in the Caribbean ...

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 7/9/19 11:51 am, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 3:19:27 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 12:13:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:27:17 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
This is interesting

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/crops-under-solar-panels-can-be-a-win-win/

They report that not only do crops grow better using less water for the amount of food produced the solar panels stay cooler improving their electrical production. True win-win.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Study was conducted in arid area of southwest where literally anything is an improvement. It is not a general recommendation.

The solar cells can power water sprayers.

The water is a more valuable commodity than the electricity it takes to run irrigation pumps, and they really want to be using drip irrigation in places like this, and drip is low power.It probably drove the idea of using the panels for shading in the first place, although a lot stuff doesn't do well in shade. Notice they didn't mention any of the economics, but the crummy vegetable crop isn't going to make up for the loss of revenue due to greatly reduced panel density.
Modern agriculture is heading for catastrophic collapse in so many ways. They have HUGE problems. Here is a story about their plastics problem:
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/how-can-agriculture-solve-its-1-billion-plastic-problem
These plastic products are absolutely essential, but it's getting unsustainable.

There's gloom and destruction everywhere you look. Enjoy.

Some fathead Dem candidate said that driving cars will "destroy the
planet" as he boarded his private plane.

Driving electric cars would be fine. Aircraft are more of a problem. There really aren't enough private planes to create a problem, but international tourism probably has to go.

https://www.monbiot.com/books/heat/

George Monbiot pointed this out back in 2006, and it still seems to be true.

A new generation of more bulbous aircraft with enough room for liquid hydrogen fuel - rather lower energy density than liquid hydrocarbons - might save the tourist industry, but it would take a while and a great deal of expensive development.

It's not just the lower energy density. There's probably no way to
encase useful amounts of hydrogen in a viable aircraft.

Clifford Heath.

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in news:a21a6ecb-c54b-
40b9-bc0b-c5cb6bde41a8@googlegroups.com:

I thought the Germans nailed that problem a century ago. No?

Then why is your memory so bad that you cannot remember how that
turned out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster

Encasing large amounts in liquid (or even gas) form is dangerous too.
And heavy.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 12:22:32 PM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 7/9/19 11:51 am, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 3:19:27 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 12:13:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:27:17 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
This is interesting

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/crops-under-solar-panels-can-be-a-win-win/

They report that not only do crops grow better using less water for the amount of food produced the solar panels stay cooler improving their electrical production. True win-win.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Study was conducted in arid area of southwest where literally anything is an improvement. It is not a general recommendation.

The solar cells can power water sprayers.

The water is a more valuable commodity than the electricity it takes to run irrigation pumps, and they really want to be using drip irrigation in places like this, and drip is low power.It probably drove the idea of using the panels for shading in the first place, although a lot stuff doesn't do well in shade. Notice they didn't mention any of the economics, but the crummy vegetable crop isn't going to make up for the loss of revenue due to greatly reduced panel density.
Modern agriculture is heading for catastrophic collapse in so many ways. They have HUGE problems. Here is a story about their plastics problem:
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/how-can-agriculture-solve-its-1-billion-plastic-problem
These plastic products are absolutely essential, but it's getting unsustainable.

There's gloom and destruction everywhere you look. Enjoy.

Some fathead Dem candidate said that driving cars will "destroy the
planet" as he boarded his private plane.

Driving electric cars would be fine. Aircraft are more of a problem. There really aren't enough private planes to create a problem, but international tourism probably has to go.

https://www.monbiot.com/books/heat/

George Monbiot pointed this out back in 2006, and it still seems to be true.

A new generation of more bulbous aircraft with enough room for liquid hydrogen fuel - rather lower energy density than liquid hydrocarbons - might save the tourist industry, but it would take a while and a great deal of expensive development.

It's not just the lower energy density. There's probably no way to
encase useful amounts of hydrogen in a viable aircraft.

What makes you think that? Liquid hydrogen has been used as a rocket fuel. You can make the tanks well-enough insulated that the boil-off rate is tolerable.

An intercontinental flight takes longer than fueling a rocket and waiting for take-off, but "bulbous" does envisage thicker insulation than you'd choose for a rocket.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Rick C]

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 10:22:32 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 7/9/19 11:51 am, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 3:19:27 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 12:13:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:27:17 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
This is interesting

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/crops-under-solar-panels-can-be-a-win-win/

They report that not only do crops grow better using less water for the amount of food produced the solar panels stay cooler improving their electrical production. True win-win.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Study was conducted in arid area of southwest where literally anything is an improvement. It is not a general recommendation.

The solar cells can power water sprayers.

The water is a more valuable commodity than the electricity it takes to run irrigation pumps, and they really want to be using drip irrigation in places like this, and drip is low power.It probably drove the idea of using the panels for shading in the first place, although a lot stuff doesn't do well in shade. Notice they didn't mention any of the economics, but the crummy vegetable crop isn't going to make up for the loss of revenue due to greatly reduced panel density.
Modern agriculture is heading for catastrophic collapse in so many ways. They have HUGE problems. Here is a story about their plastics problem:
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/how-can-agriculture-solve-its-1-billion-plastic-problem
These plastic products are absolutely essential, but it's getting unsustainable.

There's gloom and destruction everywhere you look. Enjoy.

Some fathead Dem candidate said that driving cars will "destroy the
planet" as he boarded his private plane.

Driving electric cars would be fine. Aircraft are more of a problem. There really aren't enough private planes to create a problem, but international tourism probably has to go.

https://www.monbiot.com/books/heat/

George Monbiot pointed this out back in 2006, and it still seems to be true.

A new generation of more bulbous aircraft with enough room for liquid hydrogen fuel - rather lower energy density than liquid hydrocarbons - might save the tourist industry, but it would take a while and a great deal of expensive development.

It's not just the lower energy density. There's probably no way to
encase useful amounts of hydrogen in a viable aircraft.

I thought the Germans nailed that problem a century ago. No?

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 3:03:24 PM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 7/9/19 1:12 pm, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 12:22:32 PM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 7/9/19 11:51 am, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 3:19:27 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 12:13:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:27:17 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
This is interesting

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/crops-under-solar-panels-can-be-a-win-win/

They report that not only do crops grow better using less water for the amount of food produced the solar panels stay cooler improving their electrical production. True win-win.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Study was conducted in arid area of southwest where literally anything is an improvement. It is not a general recommendation.

The solar cells can power water sprayers.

The water is a more valuable commodity than the electricity it takes to run irrigation pumps, and they really want to be using drip irrigation in places like this, and drip is low power.It probably drove the idea of using the panels for shading in the first place, although a lot stuff doesn't do well in shade. Notice they didn't mention any of the economics, but the crummy vegetable crop isn't going to make up for the loss of revenue due to greatly reduced panel density.
Modern agriculture is heading for catastrophic collapse in so many ways. They have HUGE problems. Here is a story about their plastics problem:
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/how-can-agriculture-solve-its-1-billion-plastic-problem
These plastic products are absolutely essential, but it's getting unsustainable.

There's gloom and destruction everywhere you look. Enjoy.

Some fathead Dem candidate said that driving cars will "destroy the
planet" as he boarded his private plane.

Driving electric cars would be fine. Aircraft are more of a problem. There really aren't enough private planes to create a problem, but international tourism probably has to go.

https://www.monbiot.com/books/heat/

George Monbiot pointed this out back in 2006, and it still seems to be true.

A new generation of more bulbous aircraft with enough room for liquid hydrogen fuel - rather lower energy density than liquid hydrocarbons - might save the tourist industry, but it would take a while and a great deal of expensive development.

It's not just the lower energy density. There's probably no way to
encase useful amounts of hydrogen in a viable aircraft.

What makes you think that? Liquid hydrogen has been used as a rocket fuel.

Also, all those rockets were single-use.

So what? Hydrogen embrittlement is a known problem with known solutions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

You seem to be in full nervous Nellie mode.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 1:03:24 AM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 7/9/19 1:12 pm, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 12:22:32 PM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 7/9/19 11:51 am, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 3:19:27 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 12:13:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:27:17 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
This is interesting

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/crops-under-solar-panels-can-be-a-win-win/

They report that not only do crops grow better using less water for the amount of food produced the solar panels stay cooler improving their electrical production. True win-win.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Study was conducted in arid area of southwest where literally anything is an improvement. It is not a general recommendation.

The solar cells can power water sprayers.

The water is a more valuable commodity than the electricity it takes to run irrigation pumps, and they really want to be using drip irrigation in places like this, and drip is low power.It probably drove the idea of using the panels for shading in the first place, although a lot stuff doesn't do well in shade. Notice they didn't mention any of the economics, but the crummy vegetable crop isn't going to make up for the loss of revenue due to greatly reduced panel density.
Modern agriculture is heading for catastrophic collapse in so many ways. They have HUGE problems. Here is a story about their plastics problem:
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/how-can-agriculture-solve-its-1-billion-plastic-problem
These plastic products are absolutely essential, but it's getting unsustainable.

There's gloom and destruction everywhere you look. Enjoy.

Some fathead Dem candidate said that driving cars will "destroy the
planet" as he boarded his private plane.

Driving electric cars would be fine. Aircraft are more of a problem. There really aren't enough private planes to create a problem, but international tourism probably has to go.

https://www.monbiot.com/books/heat/

George Monbiot pointed this out back in 2006, and it still seems to be true.

A new generation of more bulbous aircraft with enough room for liquid hydrogen fuel - rather lower energy density than liquid hydrocarbons - might save the tourist industry, but it would take a while and a great deal of expensive development.

It's not just the lower energy density. There's probably no way to
encase useful amounts of hydrogen in a viable aircraft.

What makes you think that? Liquid hydrogen has been used as a rocket fuel.

Also, all those rockets were single-use.

That was just an expedient as Musk is showing us. They designed to do a job the cheapest and simplest way possible. A job that didn't require reuse. Musk is now looking at new ways to make the task more routine as well as cheap.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 7/9/19 1:12 pm, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 12:22:32 PM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 7/9/19 11:51 am, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 3:19:27 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 12:13:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:27:17 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
This is interesting

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/crops-under-solar-panels-can-be-a-win-win/

They report that not only do crops grow better using less water for the amount of food produced the solar panels stay cooler improving their electrical production. True win-win.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Study was conducted in arid area of southwest where literally anything is an improvement. It is not a general recommendation.

The solar cells can power water sprayers.

The water is a more valuable commodity than the electricity it takes to run irrigation pumps, and they really want to be using drip irrigation in places like this, and drip is low power.It probably drove the idea of using the panels for shading in the first place, although a lot stuff doesn't do well in shade. Notice they didn't mention any of the economics, but the crummy vegetable crop isn't going to make up for the loss of revenue due to greatly reduced panel density.
Modern agriculture is heading for catastrophic collapse in so many ways. They have HUGE problems. Here is a story about their plastics problem:
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/how-can-agriculture-solve-its-1-billion-plastic-problem
These plastic products are absolutely essential, but it's getting unsustainable.

There's gloom and destruction everywhere you look. Enjoy.

Some fathead Dem candidate said that driving cars will "destroy the
planet" as he boarded his private plane.

Driving electric cars would be fine. Aircraft are more of a problem. There really aren't enough private planes to create a problem, but international tourism probably has to go.

https://www.monbiot.com/books/heat/

George Monbiot pointed this out back in 2006, and it still seems to be true.

A new generation of more bulbous aircraft with enough room for liquid hydrogen fuel - rather lower energy density than liquid hydrocarbons - might save the tourist industry, but it would take a while and a great deal of expensive development.

It's not just the lower energy density. There's probably no way to
encase useful amounts of hydrogen in a viable aircraft.

What makes you think that? Liquid hydrogen has been used as a rocket fuel.

Also, all those rockets were single-use.

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 7/9/19 1:12 pm, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 12:22:32 PM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 7/9/19 11:51 am, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 3:19:27 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 12:13:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:27:17 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
This is interesting

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/crops-under-solar-panels-can-be-a-win-win/

They report that not only do crops grow better using less water for the amount of food produced the solar panels stay cooler improving their electrical production. True win-win.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Study was conducted in arid area of southwest where literally anything is an improvement. It is not a general recommendation.

The solar cells can power water sprayers.

The water is a more valuable commodity than the electricity it takes to run irrigation pumps, and they really want to be using drip irrigation in places like this, and drip is low power.It probably drove the idea of using the panels for shading in the first place, although a lot stuff doesn't do well in shade. Notice they didn't mention any of the economics, but the crummy vegetable crop isn't going to make up for the loss of revenue due to greatly reduced panel density.
Modern agriculture is heading for catastrophic collapse in so many ways. They have HUGE problems. Here is a story about their plastics problem:
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/how-can-agriculture-solve-its-1-billion-plastic-problem
These plastic products are absolutely essential, but it's getting unsustainable.

There's gloom and destruction everywhere you look. Enjoy.

Some fathead Dem candidate said that driving cars will "destroy the
planet" as he boarded his private plane.

Driving electric cars would be fine. Aircraft are more of a problem. There really aren't enough private planes to create a problem, but international tourism probably has to go.

https://www.monbiot.com/books/heat/

George Monbiot pointed this out back in 2006, and it still seems to be true.

A new generation of more bulbous aircraft with enough room for liquid hydrogen fuel - rather lower energy density than liquid hydrocarbons - might save the tourist industry, but it would take a while and a great deal of expensive development.

It's not just the lower energy density. There's probably no way to
encase useful amounts of hydrogen in a viable aircraft.

What makes you think that? Liquid hydrogen has been used as a rocket fuel. You can make the tanks well-enough insulated that the boil-off rate is tolerable.

An intercontinental flight takes longer than fueling a rocket and waiting for take-off, but "bulbous" does envisage thicker insulation than you'd choose for a rocket.

Cryogenics are costly and troublesome. Hydrogen at useful density and
ambient temperatures the same in different ways. Both are inordinately
more difficult and costly than liquid fuels.

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 7/9/19 3:25 pm, Rick C wrote:

On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 1:03:24 AM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 7/9/19 1:12 pm, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 12:22:32 PM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 7/9/19 11:51 am, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 3:19:27 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 12:13:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:27:17 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
This is interesting

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/crops-under-solar-panels-can-be-a-win-win/

They report that not only do crops grow better using less water for the amount of food produced the solar panels stay cooler improving their electrical production. True win-win.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Study was conducted in arid area of southwest where literally anything is an improvement. It is not a general recommendation.

The solar cells can power water sprayers.

The water is a more valuable commodity than the electricity it takes to run irrigation pumps, and they really want to be using drip irrigation in places like this, and drip is low power.It probably drove the idea of using the panels for shading in the first place, although a lot stuff doesn't do well in shade. Notice they didn't mention any of the economics, but the crummy vegetable crop isn't going to make up for the loss of revenue due to greatly reduced panel density.
Modern agriculture is heading for catastrophic collapse in so many ways. They have HUGE problems. Here is a story about their plastics problem:
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/how-can-agriculture-solve-its-1-billion-plastic-problem
These plastic products are absolutely essential, but it's getting unsustainable.

There's gloom and destruction everywhere you look. Enjoy.

Some fathead Dem candidate said that driving cars will "destroy the
planet" as he boarded his private plane.

Driving electric cars would be fine. Aircraft are more of a problem. There really aren't enough private planes to create a problem, but international tourism probably has to go.

https://www.monbiot.com/books/heat/

George Monbiot pointed this out back in 2006, and it still seems to be true.

A new generation of more bulbous aircraft with enough room for liquid hydrogen fuel - rather lower energy density than liquid hydrocarbons - might save the tourist industry, but it would take a while and a great deal of expensive development.

It's not just the lower energy density. There's probably no way to
encase useful amounts of hydrogen in a viable aircraft.

What makes you think that? Liquid hydrogen has been used as a rocket fuel.

Also, all those rockets were single-use.

That was just an expedient as Musk is showing us.

Rubbish. His rockets are liquid-fuelled. Show me a similar re-usable
hydrogen-fuelled rocket and we have something to talk about.

Clifford Heath.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 3:40:24 PM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 7/9/19 3:25 pm, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 1:03:24 AM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 7/9/19 1:12 pm, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 12:22:32 PM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 7/9/19 11:51 am, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 3:19:27 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 12:13:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:27:17 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

<snip>

A new generation of more bulbous aircraft with enough room for liquid hydrogen fuel - rather lower energy density than liquid hydrocarbons - might save the tourist industry, but it would take a while and a great deal of expensive development.

It's not just the lower energy density. There's probably no way to
encase useful amounts of hydrogen in a viable aircraft.

What makes you think that? Liquid hydrogen has been used as a rocket fuel.

Also, all those rockets were single-use.

That was just an expedient as Musk is showing us.

Rubbish. His rockets are liquid-fuelled. Show me a similar re-usable
hydrogen-fuelled rocket and we have something to talk about.

In what sense is liquid hydrogen not a liquid fuel?

Musk uses kerosene and liquid oxygen. The other private rocket development uses liquid methane and liquid oxygen. Liquid hydrogen is trickier than liquid oxygen, or liquid methane, but cryogenic liquids are clearly perfectly practical.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:12:39 -0700 (PDT), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 12:22:32 PM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 7/9/19 11:51 am, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 3:19:27 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 12:13:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:27:17 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
This is interesting

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/crops-under-solar-panels-can-be-a-win-win/

They report that not only do crops grow better using less water for the amount of food produced the solar panels stay cooler improving their electrical production. True win-win.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Study was conducted in arid area of southwest where literally anything is an improvement. It is not a general recommendation.

The solar cells can power water sprayers.

The water is a more valuable commodity than the electricity it takes to run irrigation pumps, and they really want to be using drip irrigation in places like this, and drip is low power.It probably drove the idea of using the panels for shading in the first place, although a lot stuff doesn't do well in shade. Notice they didn't mention any of the economics, but the crummy vegetable crop isn't going to make up for the loss of revenue due to greatly reduced panel density.
Modern agriculture is heading for catastrophic collapse in so many ways. They have HUGE problems. Here is a story about their plastics problem:
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/how-can-agriculture-solve-its-1-billion-plastic-problem
These plastic products are absolutely essential, but it's getting unsustainable.

There's gloom and destruction everywhere you look. Enjoy.

Some fathead Dem candidate said that driving cars will "destroy the
planet" as he boarded his private plane.

Driving electric cars would be fine. Aircraft are more of a problem. There really aren't enough private planes to create a problem, but international tourism probably has to go.

https://www.monbiot.com/books/heat/

George Monbiot pointed this out back in 2006, and it still seems to be true.

A new generation of more bulbous aircraft with enough room for liquid hydrogen fuel - rather lower energy density than liquid hydrocarbons - might save the tourist industry, but it would take a while and a great deal of expensive development.

It's not just the lower energy density. There's probably no way to
encase useful amounts of hydrogen in a viable aircraft.

What makes you think that? Liquid hydrogen has been used as a rocket fuel. You can make the tanks well-enough insulated that the boil-off rate is tolerable.

An intercontinental flight takes longer than fueling a rocket and waiting for take-off, but "bulbous" does envisage thicker insulation than you'd choose for a rocket.

Is evaporation of liquid hydrogen really a problem ? As far as I
understand, the hydrogen needs to be in gaseous form in order to burn
it in an engine. In rockets, the liquid hydrogen runs around the
nozzle to evaporate it before being burnt.

With a suitable tank insulation thickness the evaporation rate could
be adjusted in such a way that the gaseous hydrogen can be immediately
burned in the engine. When flying at 10 km, the air temperature is
about -50 C, reducing insulation needs.

Of course, if the departure is delayed for some reason, too much may
evaporate on the ground.