Crazy idea?

On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 10:04:33 PM UTC-4, bruce2...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 12:14:22 PM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
On Mon, 06 May 2019 22:20:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Mon, 06 May 2019 20:26:57 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

I posted this in the basics newsgroup too but repairs could be in my
future.
Mebbe I shud jest leave things be... But here goes my crazy idea. I
have a Ford 9N tractor. The hydraulics that raise the arms of the 3
point hitch system are powered by the same system that spins the PTO.
This means that when the post hole digger is kept raised it also must
be spinning. This is dangerous but that's the way the 1939 tractor was
made.
The tractor is a 6 volt system. I have a 12 volt clutch that I am
thinking about interposing between the PTO and the post hole digger.
The clutch draws about 5 amps and the generator can put out 11 amps.
So what if I arrange, with some sort of switching, to have the
generator connected in series with the 6 volt battery to power the
clutch whenever I am using the post hole digger? Crazy idea? I could
change the tractor to 12 volts but that would require a new
alternator, battery, and coil. As well as the kit to make an
alternator fit the tractor.
Since the battery and generator are new I can't justify to myself
that replacing them needed to be done anyway so why not convert to 12
volts.
Since I have a machine shop the mechanical part can be done
properly. But just because I can engineer and build the mechanical
part doesn't qualify me to judge the electrical part of my scheme.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Eric



Greetings Jeff,

Clutching at straws?

Like this?
https://www.machinerypete.com/details/under-40-hp/1939/ford/9n/19551675

Yeah, that's the tractor.

What type of 12v clutch to you have? Disc, band, planetary, radial
pin, ratchet, etc?

A disc type from a riding mower.


Some random thoughts, suggestions, and sanity checks:

1. The auger is going to generate quite a bit of torque. If the
auger gets hung up on a rock, something in the drive chain is going to
absorb the energy. Usually, its a shear pin or shear bolt. If you
put a disc, band, or radial pin clutch in between the drive and auger,
it will be the disc or band that takes up the load and convert the
drive power to smoke or a pin that gets sheared.

I have the post hole digger. They all come with shear pins which are
really grade 2 bolts. This is industry standard. Lots of folks ruin
their digger gearboxes when they use grade 8 bolts instead of grade 2.



2. I'm not sure what manner of PTO you have but if it's reversible,
be sure your clutch will work equally well in reverse so you can back
out the auger after you get it hung up on a rock. Disc clutches will
usually work in reverse. Radial pin clutches, will not. Band
clutches might work, depending on design.

No reverse on the PTO. You have to take the bolts out and unscrew the
augur using a big wrench. That's how it was done in 1939 on
inexpensive tractors.

Were transistors or semi-conductors also around back then? Incidentally, I know little about science, math and technology, so you know: I'm just curious.

Google is your friend....Google knows all...(more or less, a little fuzzy around the edges sometimes, but mostly in the ballpark..)

Semiconductor transistors? No, not in 1939. 1946, 1947 depending on what you want to call invented? - actual semiconductor effect? patented? demonstrated?
Dec 23, 1947 is the most cited date. IIRC there was about 6-10 months from the time the actual device worked in the lab till when it was announced to the world (Dec 1947)
Actually the field effect transistor was discovered in 1925.
A vacuum tube (valve) diode was invented in 1904, semiconductor version was developed in the early 40's.

Silicon crystals that exhibited the 'diode effect' were used in the 1920,1930 as detectors in the crystal radios.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor#History

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 6:52:09 AM UTC-4, Fox's Mercantile wrote:

On 5/11/19 2:15 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 10:04:33 PM UTC-4, bruce2...@gmail.com wrote:

Were transistors or semi-conductors also around back then? Incidentally, I know little about science, math and technology, so you know: I'm just curious.

Yes:

Diodes were the first semiconductor electronic devices. The discovery of crystals' rectifying abilities was made by German physicist Ferdinand Braun in 1874. The first semiconductor diodes, called cat's whisker diodes were made of crystals of minerals such as galena.


An accurate, but totally useless answer that you cut and pasted from:
http://www.idc-online.com/technical_references/pdfs/electronic_engineering/History_of_diode.pdf

No, I have never been to that site, but nice try, Skippy!

It came from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_rectifier

Transistors weren't invented until 1947.

Generators were in use until the '60s, and mechanical regulators were
in use up to the 70's because prior to that they didn't have reliable
diodes and transistors.

So I repeat, in 1939, no.

Repeat it all you want. Bipolars were developed in the '40s, but Field Effect were much earlier. They were unable to manufacture them, until the metalurgy improved to an acceptable level to do more that create single FETs in the lab.

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 5/15/19 9:37 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 6:52:09 AM UTC-4, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 5/11/19 2:15 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 10:04:33 PM UTC-4, bruce2...@gmail.com wrote:

Were transistors or semi-conductors also around back then? Incidentally, I know little about science, math and technology, so you know: I'm just curious.

Yes:

Diodes were the first semiconductor electronic devices. The discovery of crystals' rectifying abilities was made by German physicist Ferdinand Braun in 1874. The first semiconductor diodes, called cat's whisker diodes were made of crystals of minerals such as galena.


An accurate, but totally useless answer that you cut and pasted from:
http://www.idc-online.com/technical_references/pdfs/electronic_engineering/History_of_diode.pdf


No, I have never been to that site, but nice try, Skippy!

It came from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_rectifier

So what, it was still word for word verbatim copy and past

Transistors weren't invented until 1947.

Generators were in use until the '60s, and mechanical regulators were
in use up to the 70's because prior to that they didn't have reliable
diodes and transistors.

So I repeat, in 1939, no.

Repeat it all you want. Bipolars were developed in the '40s, but Field Effect were much earlier. They were unable to manufacture them, until the metalurgy improved to an acceptable level to do more that create single FETs in the lab.

Blather all you want about lab curiosities.

His question, and the answer, were with regards to solid state devices
used in production on 1939 tractors.

There weren't any. So unless you can prove otherwise, go fuck yourself.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 10:08:37 AM UTC-4, Fox's Mercantile wrote:

There weren't any. So unless you can prove otherwise, go fuck yourself.

Yet another lame cut & paste insult that only you lying, brain dead liberals can do, Skippy?

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 5/16/19 8:40 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 10:08:37 AM UTC-4, Fox's Mercantile wrote:

There weren't any. So unless you can prove otherwise, go fuck yourself.

Yet another lame cut & paste insult that only you lying, brain dead liberals can do, Skippy?

Congratulations, you've proved my point.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

I think the OP was asking a simple question about powering the 12 v clutch using the 6 volt supply from the tractor AND a 6 volt battery in SERIES.

YES, that will work fine.

If you want to get fancy you can hook up a DPDT switch so the 6 V battery is charged by the tractor when the battery is not being used to power the clutch.

mark

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 5/20/19 1:47 PM, makolber@yahoo.com wrote:

I think the OP was asking a simple question about powering
the 12 v clutch using the 6 volt supply from the tractor
AND a 6 volt battery in SERIES.

That's what I wrongly assumed to begin with.
What he wanted to do is switch the 6 v generator in series
with the battery to total 12 volts.

In retrospect, this is a problem as one side of the generator
is grounded. Kind of hard to float it in series.



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

On Mon, 20 May 2019 11:47:08 -0700 (PDT), makolber@yahoo.com wrote:

I think the OP was asking a simple question about powering the 12 v clutch using the 6 volt supply from the tractor AND a 6 volt battery in SERIES.

YES, that will work fine.

If you want to get fancy you can hook up a DPDT switch so the 6 V battery is charged by the tractor when the battery is not being used to power the clutch.

mark

Actually I was thinking of using the tractor generator is series with
the existing tractor battey, not an extra battery.
Eric

 

I think the OP was asking a simple question about powering the 12 v clutch using the 6 volt supply from the tractor AND a 6 volt battery in SERIES.

YES, that will work fine.

If you want to get fancy you can hook up a DPDT switch so the 6 V battery is charged by the tractor when the battery is not being used to power the clutch.

mark
Actually I was thinking of using the tractor generator is series with
the existing tractor battey, not an extra battery.
Eric

ok, that would be a bit more complicated and risky.

m